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Reply #51: What makes you think this? [View All]

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Shaktimaan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-06-07 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #24
51. What makes you think this?
It's not protecting Israelis, it's protecting settlements.

Why does one exclude the other? The fence has done an excellent job as a barrier to terrorism. Terrorist attacks have dropped almost 100% in the areas that the fence is erected.

The Israelis could be protected far better by a wall on Israeli territory, if they were willing to abandon the illegal settlements.

What makes you think so? How much better would the wall work than it is working now? (Would it block over 100% of terrorist attacks?)

The issue of the settlements is not going to be resolved as a rection to terrorism. The fact is that the settlements are not illegal and have been validated by the Palestinians via Oslo. Whether they will all stay or partially stay or whatever is to be decided by negotiations.

The fact that the wall has been built on Palestinian land is, I think, strong evidence that its route was chosen to cement the occupation, not to protect Israeli lives.

There is no such thing as Palestinian land. The west bank is unclaimed territory right now. The route was chosen to encompass as many Israeli citizens as possible. I don't know what "cement the occupation" means. The issue of the settlements and of the future border has nothing to do with the fence. The fact that the fence encompasses areas where Israelis live seems to be pretty solid evidence that their main concern is protecting Israeli citizen's lives. If it was a land grab then why did they wait 40 years to do it?

Also, what would your view be on a non-Israeli nation adopting a policy of "kill or destroy the lives of as many Israelis as it takes to protect our property"?

I have no idea what this is referring to. The fence is entirely about protecting lives. If Israeli terrorists were infiltrating Jordan on a regular basis and they wanted to put up a fence that severly inconvenienced many Israelis they would still have the right to do so.
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  -Amnesty urges Israel to tear down West Bank separation fence bemildred  Jun-03-07 10:17 AM   #0 
  - Only the parts beyond the green line should be torn down and rebuilt on said line.  UndertheOcean   Jun-03-07 10:25 AM   #1 
  - Well, it does say "West Bank separation fence".  bemildred   Jun-03-07 10:29 AM   #2 
     - They aren't neighbors, they are occupier and occupied.  Tom Joad   Jun-03-07 01:25 PM   #3 
        - Hi Tom, how are you?  bemildred   Jun-03-07 01:33 PM   #4 
  - 'Amnesty Israel must resign'  Scurrilous   Jun-03-07 05:27 PM   #5 
  - NGO monitor is a biased propaganda organ. nt  bemildred   Jun-03-07 05:32 PM   #6 
  - If I were an Israeli...  rayofreason   Jun-03-07 10:55 PM   #7 
  - why not have the fence on the green line instead of occupied territory..  UndertheOcean   Jun-04-07 05:29 AM   #8 
  - Israel rejects Amnesty report urging end to West Bank fence  breakaleg   Jun-04-07 10:28 AM   #9 
     - big deal....  pelsar   Jun-04-07 11:34 AM   #10 
        - And that's because these are all areas in which Israel is operating against International law.  breakaleg   Jun-04-07 11:41 AM   #11 
        - intl law?  pelsar   Jun-04-07 12:37 PM   #16 
        - Is that not a valid point being made?  parkia00   Jun-04-07 12:11 PM   #12 
        - the 67 border...  pelsar   Jun-04-07 12:33 PM   #15 
           - If it's a choice between building the wall in such a way that it separates Palestinians from their  breakaleg   Jun-04-07 01:02 PM   #18 
           - your is a no brainer..  pelsar   Jun-04-07 03:02 PM   #20 
              - It's not protecting Israelis, it's protecting settlements.  Donald Ian Rankin   Jun-05-07 06:46 AM   #24 
                 - What makes you think this?  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 09:14 AM   #51 
           - Well , settlement on occupied land is illegal , so pull the  UndertheOcean   Jun-04-07 06:36 PM   #22 
              - not quite.  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 09:19 AM   #52 
                 - Ok , so give the palestinians the same voting rights as the settlers...  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 12:11 PM   #55 
                    - Well, they already do.  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 12:34 PM   #57 
                    - Yeah , but there are no US settlers settling in Iraq and demanding to annex parts of it to the USA!  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 12:51 PM   #61 
                    - That is because  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 04:16 PM   #69 
                       - No , I'm not suggesting that , they can live there , under palestinian rule..  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 04:45 PM   #75 
                          - If you know the history behind all this,  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 07:45 PM   #82 
                          - OK, but why  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 07:58 PM   #84 
                             - What other alternative there is ? The UN partition plan ?  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 09:58 PM   #85 
                                - Why are you thinking of the green line  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 11:12 PM   #86 
                    - This doesn't look like 95% to me , what I see is cantons  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 12:56 PM   #62 
                       - That map is area.  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 04:19 PM   #70 
                          - So basically the palestinians are squeezed into their crowded cities and towns and not  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 04:25 PM   #71 
                             - Well now you are just making stuff up.  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 05:08 PM   #76 
                                - How many checkpoints where dismantled , and how many are there ?  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 05:17 PM   #78 
                    - They already have the right to the vote that has the most . .  msmcghee   Jun-06-07 12:46 PM   #60 
                       - So if Israelis elect an ultra wing party like the one headed by Avigdor Lieberman ome day...  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 01:00 PM   #63 
                          - Israel has been a democracy since its founding in 1948.  msmcghee   Jun-06-07 01:16 PM   #65 
                             - I am not sure I completely buy the rosy picture of Israeli democracy...  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 01:30 PM   #66 
                                - No.  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 04:06 PM   #68 
                                   - 1966 , thanks for the correction.  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 04:40 PM   #73 
                                      - Wonderful!  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 05:13 PM   #77 
                                      - Ok , here is is from Wikipedia :  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 05:27 PM   #80 
                                      - And if you don't like wikipedia , here is something from the Jerusalem Post  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 05:31 PM   #81 
                                      - Whats not true about what I said ?  UndertheOcean   Jun-06-07 05:23 PM   #79 
                                      - Of course.  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 07:49 PM   #83 
                                      - ...  eyl   Jun-07-07 06:26 AM   #87 
                                         - thank you for not dismissing my comments o of hand ...  UndertheOcean   Jun-07-07 08:49 AM   #88 
                                            - Because  eyl   Jun-08-07 10:04 AM   #89 
        - I think that's somewhat illogical.  Donald Ian Rankin   Jun-04-07 12:15 PM   #13 
           - the overflights...just some info..  pelsar   Jun-04-07 12:29 PM   #14 
           - Don't they also create sonic booms with no other purpose than to terrorize the population?  breakaleg   Jun-04-07 01:03 PM   #19 
              - yes it must be terrorism.....  pelsar   Jun-04-07 03:38 PM   #21 
           - the line of argument ....  pelsar   Jun-04-07 12:42 PM   #17 
              - So how low is Israel willing to go below intl law. ?  UndertheOcean   Jun-04-07 06:45 PM   #23 
              - No, it ought to do what is right.  Donald Ian Rankin   Jun-05-07 06:55 AM   #25 
                 - whos morality...and whos values....  pelsar   Jun-05-07 03:03 PM   #26 
                 - Who said Israel is not allowed to respond? Where can you show me that international law says such a  breakaleg   Jun-05-07 03:30 PM   #29 
                 - i believe it was you who criticizes all israeli responses...  pelsar   Jun-05-07 07:28 PM   #35 
                    - If not the settlers, then who were you referring to? Who is in danger if the wall is built along  breakaleg   Jun-05-07 08:48 PM   #38 
                       - thats nothing more than a cop out....  pelsar   Jun-06-07 03:42 PM   #67 
                 - I've argued with you elsewhere as to how I think Israel should protect itself; you didn't agree.  Donald Ian Rankin   Jun-05-07 06:37 PM   #31 
                    - and thats why intl law is a farce....  pelsar   Jun-05-07 07:22 PM   #34 
                    - This is an insane statement.  Shaktimaan   Jun-05-07 08:44 PM   #37 
                    - they have that right because they are occupied by Israel. basic stuff.  breakaleg   Jun-05-07 08:53 PM   #40 
                       - OK.  Shaktimaan   Jun-05-07 09:13 PM   #44 
                          - So, you are saying Israel has a right to occupy Palestinian land but Palestinians don't have the  breakaleg   Jun-05-07 09:17 PM   #45 
                             - Who cares what I think.  Shaktimaan   Jun-05-07 09:35 PM   #46 
                                - The UN Charter recognizes the right to self-determination.  breakaleg   Jun-05-07 09:58 PM   #48 
                                   - I read this four times...  Shaktimaan   Jun-05-07 11:00 PM   #50 
                    - a few questions...  Shaktimaan   Jun-05-07 09:47 PM   #47 
                 - please...this is really garbage....  pelsar   Jun-05-07 03:18 PM   #27 
                 - your disdain for Palestinians appears to be clouding your judgement.  breakaleg   Jun-05-07 03:27 PM   #28 
                 - my disdane for the palestenians....?  pelsar   Jun-05-07 06:57 PM   #32 
                 - The equation was deliberate.  Donald Ian Rankin   Jun-05-07 06:24 PM   #30 
                    - and you ignore the palestenains who voted...  pelsar   Jun-05-07 07:15 PM   #33 
                       - that's like saying the people who voted for Bush voted for the war, even though  breakaleg   Jun-05-07 08:21 PM   #36 
                          - so then...  Shaktimaan   Jun-05-07 08:58 PM   #42 
                          - additionally,  Shaktimaan   Jun-05-07 10:01 PM   #49 
                 - problem.  Shaktimaan   Jun-05-07 08:51 PM   #39 
                    - I saw a bit of news today in which the reporter said something to the effect of  breakaleg   Jun-05-07 08:55 PM   #41 
                       - convince who?  Shaktimaan   Jun-05-07 09:07 PM   #43 
                          - there are Ph d's in biology who believe in biblical creationism,  Douglas Carpenter   Jun-06-07 09:29 AM   #53 
                             - Almost every ruling or decision against the fence...  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 10:44 AM   #54 
                                - but every other independent--international legal body hold the same opinion though  Douglas Carpenter   Jun-06-07 12:19 PM   #56 
                                   - Like what other legal bodies?  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 12:36 PM   #58 
                                      - The International Committee of the Red Cross for one  Douglas Carpenter   Jun-06-07 12:43 PM   #59 
                                      - unfortunately, the PDF file (the first one) does not open for me for some reason  Douglas Carpenter   Jun-06-07 01:15 PM   #64 
                                         - It's wonky.  Shaktimaan   Jun-06-07 04:35 PM   #72 
                                            - rather over the top language.on the front page  Douglas Carpenter   Jun-06-07 04:45 PM   #74 

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