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Reply #175: Here is one critique [View All]

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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-06-11 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #171
175. Here is one critique
Edited on Tue Dec-06-11 08:09 AM by one-eyed fat man

Many articles have been published finding that shall-issue laws reduce crime. Only one article, by Ayres and Donohue who employ a model that combines a dummy variable with a post-law trend, claims to find that shall-issue laws increase crime. However, the only way that they can produce the result that shall-issue laws increase crime is to confine the span of analysis to five years. We show, using their own estimates, that if they had extended their analysis by one more year, they would have concluded that these laws reduce crime. Since most states with shall-issue laws have had these laws on the books for more than five years, and the law will presumably remain on the books for some time, the only relevant analysis extends beyond five years.

If you want to argue that if a person is suicidal, and that if they know there is a gun in the house and can get at it they may be more inclined to use it than hunt through the garage for a rope and hang themselves you might have a point. The same might be said for people who live in tall buildings, they don't have to go out and buy a gun when they can just walk out the window. Particularly people who really mean to die, not the drama queens who swallow a few pills, call all their friends, and wind up in the emergency room.

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  -If you carry a loaded gun - you are ready, willing and able to save someone with it ileus  Dec-03-11 08:45 PM   #0 
  - say hello to my leetle friend!  provis99   Dec-03-11 08:50 PM   #1 
  - Or kill your family and any bystanders.  Swede   Dec-03-11 08:53 PM   #2 
  - No. You grossly overestimate.  TheWraith   Dec-04-11 11:39 AM   #65 
  - Can you provide empirical evidence of that claim?  Euromutt   Dec-05-11 06:13 AM   #112 
     - Actual evidence to support a gun-control claim?  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-06-11 03:43 PM   #181 
  - There  Old Codger   Dec-03-11 08:56 PM   #3 
  - there Is no way to have a sane logical discussion on anything in this forum  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-03-11 09:33 PM   #7 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Dec-03-11 09:38 PM   #9 
  - DU3 will provide us with a welcome relief from this forum!  madinmaryland   Dec-04-11 12:58 AM   #33 
     - just like the TV  gejohnston   Dec-04-11 01:03 AM   #35 
     - As my comment says, when DU3 is introduced I will be blocking this forum just  madinmaryland   Dec-04-11 10:19 AM   #54 
        - If you can't restrain yourself from coming in here now.....  PavePusher   Dec-04-11 12:37 PM   #78 
        - Why wait?  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-06-11 03:44 PM   #182 
     - And yet, here you are posting in the very forum you decry....  friendly_iconoclast   Dec-04-11 03:02 AM   #40 
     - They'll get their way, one way or another.nt  SteveM   Dec-04-11 12:20 PM   #75 
     - well, I can understand the frustration but, there is a bigger picture --  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 08:19 AM   #48 
     - I am not stifling any discussion. I am only saying that I have no desire to have  madinmaryland   Dec-04-11 10:22 AM   #55 
        - and yet --- Here you are --  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 10:26 AM   #56 
        - I will be heading over there in a little bit. For now, I have an arguement  madinmaryland   Dec-04-11 10:41 AM   #57 
           - Well, you keep that shit in the Lounge then. We only discuss wholesome, onion-related  petronius   Dec-04-11 11:03 AM   #60 
              - damn skippy, pardner  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 12:43 PM   #83 
        - Yet you keep coming back  rl6214   Dec-05-11 01:54 AM   #110 
     - That is the solution.  Hangingon   Dec-04-11 09:23 AM   #49 
     - I'm not stifling your discussion. I just want no part of the "discussion" that goes on in this  madinmaryland   Dec-04-11 10:18 AM   #53 
        - Then why are you still here? Shoo!! Get thyself gone! n/t  oneshooter   Dec-04-11 10:52 AM   #58 
        - That is evidently a false statement, because here you are!  Euromutt   Dec-05-11 06:05 AM   #111 
        - You seem like a good guy.  discntnt_irny_srcsm   Dec-05-11 12:22 PM   #132 
     - Seriously, how will this "welcome relief" manifest itself? What  SteveM   Dec-04-11 12:19 PM   #74 
     - never mind -- deleted subthread confused me for a moment  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 01:00 PM   #85 
  - Probably because some anti-2A folks have, you know...  SteveM   Dec-04-11 12:18 PM   #73 
     - excuse me  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 12:58 PM   #84 
  - I was wondering how often that happens  Nikia   Dec-03-11 08:59 PM   #4 
  - The police don't stop crime  socialindependocrat   Dec-03-11 09:21 PM   #5 
  - I don't know how many civilians carry  Nikia   Dec-03-11 10:36 PM   #15 
     - Nationally, the average is somewhere around 3 percent who actually carry concealed.  TheWraith   Dec-04-11 11:49 AM   #69 
     - Minor correction re: Illinois  Euromutt   Dec-05-11 06:41 AM   #113 
     - Concerning your fears about "a couple who hope..."  SteveM   Dec-04-11 12:25 PM   #76 
     - I'm sorry, but I don't see what the problem is?  Euromutt   Dec-05-11 06:54 AM   #115 
        - Remember the parable about crabs in a bucket... n/t  PavePusher   Dec-05-11 11:29 AM   #124 
  - It is not common  one-eyed fat man   Dec-03-11 09:37 PM   #8 
  - There are several websites that document actual incidents of self-defense.  PavePusher   Dec-03-11 11:00 PM   #18 
  - depends on the study  gejohnston   Dec-03-11 11:16 PM   #20 
  - It's hard to estimate  DissedByBush   Dec-03-11 11:31 PM   #23 
  - Defensive gun uses are estimated anywhere between 250,000 and 4 million per year.  TheWraith   Dec-04-11 11:44 AM   #68 
  - There may be a website for this...  SteveM   Dec-05-11 03:36 PM   #141 
  - but more likely  bowens43   Dec-03-11 09:29 PM   #6 
  - So-o-o-o-o... you're volunteering to be responsible for my personal security....  PavePusher   Dec-03-11 10:55 PM   #17 
  - He's doing his part by not carrying a gun.  Starboard Tack   Dec-04-11 03:19 PM   #90 
     - Leaving him alone and not interfereing with his options, liberty or property.  PavePusher   Dec-04-11 03:38 PM   #92 
     - Not a damn thing  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 12:19 PM   #130 
        - But Pave Pusher seemed to expect someone to be protecting him. Hence the question  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 03:40 PM   #142 
           - You misunderstood the question...  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 04:38 PM   #147 
              - Firstly, I expect nobody to be disarmed.  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 06:35 PM   #163 
                 - Firstly....  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-06-11 08:47 AM   #176 
                    - Once again, let me clarify my position  Starboard Tack   Dec-06-11 08:57 PM   #183 
  - False  pipoman   Dec-04-11 07:44 AM   #41 
  - What exactly is a lie?  Starboard Tack   Dec-04-11 03:23 PM   #91 
     - Well..  pipoman   Dec-04-11 07:09 PM   #98 
     - Firearms are the suicide choice of US children. Not to mention accidents and domestic disputes  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 12:47 AM   #108 
        - And how does this have anything to do with the statement at hand?  pipoman   Dec-05-11 06:49 AM   #114 
        - OK. let me help you see the absurdity of it.  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 04:08 PM   #145 
           - no but  gejohnston   Dec-05-11 04:40 PM   #148 
           - Well that clears up the whole issue.  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 07:48 PM   #169 
           - Sounds like the arguement you are trying to make is  pipoman   Dec-06-11 06:00 AM   #174 
        - Skewed statistics.  one-eyed fat man   Dec-05-11 11:39 AM   #125 
           - Sorry, I'm not familiar with Kellerman. I didn't find that name in the link I posted.  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 04:17 PM   #146 
              - I dont.  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 04:41 PM   #149 
              - Well, you've made up your mind, but you might want to read this  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 09:01 PM   #170 
                 - you know what I noticed  gejohnston   Dec-05-11 10:13 PM   #172 
                    - Criminology is a interdisciplinary. Donohue's research was exemplary.  Starboard Tack   Dec-06-11 10:16 PM   #184 
                       - MDs are not scientists  gejohnston   Dec-06-11 10:41 PM   #186 
                          - Donohue is not an MD. He is a Law profeesor, Economist and Criminologist, Sociologist, you name it  Starboard Tack   Dec-06-11 11:30 PM   #188 
                             - my bad  gejohnston   Dec-07-11 12:02 AM   #190 
                                - Yes, I have read Kessler.  Starboard Tack   Dec-07-11 12:12 AM   #192 
              - Arthure Kellerman, author of the CDC study  one-eyed fat man   Dec-05-11 06:21 PM   #161 
     - Let's restrict ourselves to the claims that were made, shall we?  Euromutt   Dec-05-11 07:22 AM   #116 
        - Sorry, I'm not buying your "7 times saved" claim  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 03:52 PM   #144 
           - Yes, you can exclude suicides.  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 04:45 PM   #150 
           - Wrong again. Your denial is staggering.  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 06:49 PM   #164 
              - Let's see the study  gejohnston   Dec-05-11 07:07 PM   #166 
                 - This is lengthy, but worth perusing.  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 09:04 PM   #171 
                    - Here is one critique  one-eyed fat man   Dec-06-11 08:03 AM   #175 
                       - Well, there's the rub. Most suicidal people are seriously depressed. They are ill.  Starboard Tack   Dec-06-11 10:31 PM   #185 
                          - does that number include  gejohnston   Dec-06-11 10:46 PM   #187 
                             - You can look it up if you really care.  Starboard Tack   Dec-06-11 11:32 PM   #189 
                                - your argument, not mine. and I'll take that as  gejohnston   Dec-07-11 12:03 AM   #191 
           - I concede I overstates, but not because I was excluding suicides  Euromutt   Dec-05-11 07:46 PM   #168 
  - Double wrong...  ileus   Dec-04-11 07:56 AM   #43 
  - "NO ONE should be allowed to carry one." This includes LEO's also does it not? n/t  oneshooter   Dec-04-11 03:57 PM   #93 
  - Upon what do you base that claim?  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 12:18 PM   #129 
  - This opinion is pure bullshit  rl6214   Dec-05-11 02:03 PM   #139 
  - I would replace "are" with "ought to be" - carrying alone doesn't make you ready and able,  petronius   Dec-03-11 09:46 PM   #10 
  - Fight the way you are correct.  ileus   Dec-04-11 08:03 AM   #44 
  - LOL! Is that the delusion?  aquart   Dec-03-11 09:47 PM   #11 
  - No, just your rank fantasy...  SteveM   Dec-04-11 12:35 PM   #77 
  - Doesn't work in practice  johnd83   Dec-03-11 09:50 PM   #12 
  - Oh really?  Straw Man   Dec-03-11 10:30 PM   #13 
  - This article is a little old but i doubt the statistics have changed much  johnd83   Dec-03-11 11:03 PM   #19 
     - statistically, a cop is more likely to fire  gejohnston   Dec-03-11 11:25 PM   #22 
     - I really wish we had something like a stun phasor  johnd83   Dec-03-11 11:36 PM   #24 
        - True  gejohnston   Dec-03-11 11:52 PM   #25 
        - Good idea, if it wasn't used on OWS protestors!  SteveM   Dec-04-11 12:40 PM   #80 
        - I wish we did too.  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 12:24 PM   #134 
     - Error.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-04-11 12:41 AM   #27 
     - Statistically you are still far more likely to hurt yourself or your family  johnd83   Dec-04-11 12:49 AM   #29 
        - Every study I have seen that made that claim...  AtheistCrusader   Dec-04-11 12:53 AM   #30 
        - The study you mention was paid for by a lobbying group  gejohnston   Dec-04-11 12:53 AM   #31 
        - Uh, the study was from the New England Journal of Medicine  johnd83   Dec-04-11 12:56 AM   #32 
           - it was published in the New England Journal of Medicine  gejohnston   Dec-04-11 01:02 AM   #34 
           - Here ya go  johnd83   Dec-04-11 01:29 AM   #36 
           - Ah, Hemenway...  Straw Man   Dec-04-11 02:21 AM   #38 
           - A fourth rate economist that also takes money from said foundation and  gejohnston   Dec-04-11 04:44 PM   #94 
           - wrong place  pipoman   Dec-04-11 07:21 PM   #99 
           - The biggest problem with these once written, twice believed  pipoman   Dec-04-11 08:22 PM   #104 
           - Would you accept medical advice from a criminologist?  friendly_iconoclast   Dec-04-11 02:52 AM   #39 
           - The "study" is so debunked, even MAIG and Brady  pipoman   Dec-04-11 07:27 PM   #100 
        - Nope - not even true.  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 12:26 PM   #135 
     - Your stats are about use in the home.  Straw Man   Dec-04-11 01:58 AM   #37 
     - Old and worthless  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 12:23 PM   #133 
  - By the time he was in a position to SEE the attacker  AtheistCrusader   Dec-04-11 12:40 AM   #26 
  - But he didn't....  ileus   Dec-04-11 08:05 AM   #45 
  - You may wish to read again what really happened.  SteveM   Dec-04-11 12:38 PM   #79 
  - Blatantly false.  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 12:21 PM   #131 
  - He didn't "nearly shoot" the guy who disarmed the shooter  rl6214   Dec-05-11 02:13 PM   #140 
  - Yup. nt  Union Scribe   Dec-03-11 10:33 PM   #14 
  - better to just stick with comic books, I think....  mike_c   Dec-03-11 10:45 PM   #16 
  - We who are about to die salute you  jpak   Dec-03-11 11:19 PM   #21 
  - That's twice in two threads you've claimed to be a criminal? Why the worry?  ileus   Dec-04-11 08:09 AM   #46 
  - Nope - guns everywhere all the time + castle laws = dead innocent citizens  jpak   Dec-04-11 10:06 AM   #52 
     - your math is off -- may I suggest a math class  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 11:43 AM   #66 
     - Facts say otherwise.  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 12:29 PM   #136 
  - I think my 12 y/o plays that game -- want me to set up a play date?  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 08:15 AM   #47 
  - I would make the same statement as the subject line of the OP.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-04-11 12:43 AM   #28 
  - No need to carry the CPR mask anymore  pipoman   Dec-04-11 07:52 AM   #42 
     - That wasn't in our last round of training.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-04-11 10:58 AM   #59 
        - I think the only time it is recommended is when  pipoman   Dec-04-11 03:03 PM   #89 
  - Please, Ileus, I don't want gun carriers' help/protection because guns in public are not answer and  Hoyt   Dec-04-11 09:23 AM   #50 
  - Walking away is always an option.  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 10:01 AM   #51 
  - Walking away from what -- some gun toter playing public protector?  Hoyt   Dec-04-11 11:26 AM   #63 
     - walking away from a person in need  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 11:38 AM   #64 
        - I'm not saying walk away from a person in need. But, poster above thinks he's Bat Man with a gun.  Hoyt   Dec-04-11 12:12 PM   #70 
           - being prepared for emergencies that might arise in any given situation  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 12:40 PM   #81 
           - Yea, I bet you walk around with a defibrillator and other emergency equipment.  Hoyt   Dec-05-11 09:07 AM   #119 
              - no, but I do know first aid and CPR. I am not qualified as a First Responder  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-05-11 12:39 PM   #137 
              - about half the time I do have a defib in my trunk  ileus   Dec-05-11 12:50 PM   #138 
              - Not a defibrilator...  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 04:49 PM   #151 
                 - Guns fit in nicely with your life saving emergency stuff.  Hoyt   Dec-06-11 05:25 AM   #173 
                    - Yep they sure do. Don't even take up any room in the saddlebags.  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-06-11 08:51 AM   #177 
           - Uh...batman didn't use firearms, generally. LOL. N/t  beevul   Dec-04-11 01:09 PM   #87 
           - Bullshit.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-04-11 07:39 PM   #102 
              - He won't step in. He believes that is the job of the Government ( police). n/t  oneshooter   Dec-04-11 08:40 PM   #105 
              - Actually, lots of things one can do without a gun -- but you won't even try leaving yours at home.  Hoyt   Dec-05-11 09:06 AM   #118 
                 - Unqualified absolute.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-05-11 10:01 AM   #122 
  - You always say this"because guns in public are not answer " but you never, ever  oneshooter   Dec-04-11 11:13 AM   #61 
  - Answer surely is not some cowboy walking out door ready to play police and Spider Man with a gun.  Hoyt   Dec-04-11 11:25 AM   #62 
     - Do you have a reading comprehension problem? Or are you just ignorant?  oneshooter   Dec-04-11 12:13 PM   #71 
     - Spiderman  Tuesday Afternoon   Dec-04-11 01:05 PM   #86 
     - Uh...spiderman didn't use guns either.  beevul   Dec-04-11 01:11 PM   #88 
     - Didn't he have some god-awful phlegm that squirted from the palm of his hand? nt  SteveM   Dec-05-11 03:50 PM   #143 
        - Depending on the story, yes.  beevul   Dec-05-11 06:59 PM   #165 
           - I always thought of Spiderman as a commentary on  gejohnston   Dec-05-11 07:10 PM   #167 
     - Sigh...  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 04:51 PM   #152 
  - You have made your position clear.  one-eyed fat man   Dec-04-11 11:44 AM   #67 
  - Walking out your door thinking you are a public protector with a gun is dangerous.  Hoyt   Dec-04-11 12:14 PM   #72 
     - Like I said, you have made your position clear  one-eyed fat man   Dec-04-11 09:55 PM   #106 
     - Meh - i don't claim to know what others think.  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-06-11 08:53 AM   #178 
  - Self-defense, or defense of others....  PavePusher   Dec-04-11 12:43 PM   #82 
  - OK, but what about the "public defender" part?  Starboard Tack   Dec-04-11 06:12 PM   #96 
     - In seattle, the 'caped crusaders' are actually ... wearing capes.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-04-11 07:41 PM   #103 
     - You are talking about  gejohnston   Dec-04-11 09:59 PM   #107 
     - Oh, that's right. They don't don't need guns. How about Bronson in "Death Wish"?  Starboard Tack   Dec-05-11 12:53 AM   #109 
        - Only because  gejohnston   Dec-05-11 08:43 AM   #117 
        - You realize that was a movie, right? n/t  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 04:58 PM   #155 
        - Ummm.... (fighting for hilarity control)....  PavePusher   Dec-05-11 05:21 PM   #157 
     - Just because you believe people like you describe exist...  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 04:57 PM   #154 
     - I don't deal with beliefs, only facts  Starboard Tack   Dec-06-11 03:32 PM   #179 
     - Argueably, if I have succesfully defended myself, I have defended the public.  PavePusher   Dec-05-11 05:19 PM   #156 
        - As you say "arguably" . It's all about perception  Starboard Tack   Dec-06-11 03:36 PM   #180 
  - I'm not LEO but if I come across you getting gang raped, what am I if I hide and watch?  ileus   Dec-04-11 06:05 PM   #95 
  - jpak? n/t  oneshooter   Dec-04-11 06:53 PM   #97 
  - Ah, Oneshooter, you might need a gun to step in and help -- but others might not need such support.  Hoyt   Dec-05-11 09:15 AM   #121 
     - That would still make them a "vigilante" according to the doctrine you espouse. n/t  oneshooter   Dec-05-11 12:01 PM   #126 
     - I would not "need" a gun to step in, but it would be nice to have one....  PavePusher   Dec-05-11 05:58 PM   #159 
  - Why would you plan on just "watching"? News for you -- Lots of things people can do without a gun.  Hoyt   Dec-05-11 09:12 AM   #120 
     - Always use the right tool for the job.  ileus   Dec-05-11 10:43 AM   #123 
     - I would.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-05-11 12:04 PM   #127 
     - Ignoring post 106 for a reason?  one-eyed fat man   Dec-05-11 12:17 PM   #128 
     - Because you have told us that you do not need, nor want, to be saved. n/t  oneshooter   Dec-05-11 06:03 PM   #160 
  - It's been explained to you before that it has ZILCH to do with 'judge' or 'jury'  AtheistCrusader   Dec-04-11 07:38 PM   #101 
  - Nobody is claiming to be.  We_Have_A_Problem   Dec-05-11 04:56 PM   #153 
  - Nah... I just like to look like a bad ass  Glassunion   Dec-05-11 05:27 PM   #158 
     - Jojo Krako supports this.  beevul   Dec-05-11 06:22 PM   #162 

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