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Reply #73: That is not what I said. [View All]

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We_Have_A_Problem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-31-11 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. That is not what I said.
I said, the decision of what his life is worth is the criminal's to make.

He chooses to initiate an illegal transfer of property and is betting that I will place a higher value on his life than on my property.

If i let him know that he underestimated the value of my property, I am simply upholding my part of the attempted illegal transfer of property.

The criminal decides to commit the crime, he does so knowing the risks. Not my problem if he ends up dead in the process. I'm truly sorry you cannot understand this.
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  -CCW holder shoots fleeing robber, charged with murder Atypical Liberal  Aug-31-11 11:36 AM   #0 
  - Jesus shoots fleeing robber. n/t  Ian David   Aug-31-11 11:40 AM   #1 
  - since the robbery victim was no longer in jeopardy...  mike_c   Aug-31-11 11:41 AM   #2 
  - Too bad he didn't live in Texas.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 11:50 AM   #8 
  - Perhaps more to the point is that...  TreasonousBastard   Aug-31-11 11:57 AM   #13 
  - No, a warning shot would not be legal.  TheWraith   Aug-31-11 12:07 PM   #24 
  - You can legally use a firearm to stop an attack if you honestly feel that ...  spin   Aug-31-11 03:08 PM   #104 
  - Ah, the fear factor complete with psychological analysis...  SteveM   Aug-31-11 12:11 PM   #30 
  - oh no-- I'll be the first to admit substantial prejudice....  mike_c   Aug-31-11 12:37 PM   #45 
     - If that is what you believe...  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 12:58 PM   #58 
     - that is, in fact, our plan....  mike_c   Aug-31-11 01:11 PM   #65 
        - Good for you.  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 01:17 PM   #69 
        - Don't let the door hit you on the way out.  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 11:21 AM   #172 
     - This is why when the GOP says liberals are just as prejudiced as they are...  SteveM   Aug-31-11 01:14 PM   #67 
     - and if my analysis turns out to be correct, then what will you do...?  mike_c   Aug-31-11 01:35 PM   #79 
        - Please don't speak to me of "rational people," ...  SteveM   Aug-31-11 02:26 PM   #95 
     - You got that backwards...  rl6214   Aug-31-11 04:25 PM   #135 
  - I would prosecute but at lesser charges since it happened under duress.  Nuclear Unicorn   Aug-31-11 12:34 PM   #42 
     - I agree. The guy probably reacted in a confused panic.  TheWraith   Aug-31-11 05:05 PM   #146 
  - Shoot to kill speeding drivers too,  safeinOhio   Aug-31-11 11:41 AM   #3 
  - If you truly  MrDiaz   Aug-31-11 12:35 PM   #43 
     - speeders and drunks can take your life.  safeinOhio   Aug-31-11 12:44 PM   #46 
        - so what  MrDiaz   Aug-31-11 02:20 PM   #94 
  - But, that's not possible!  TheWraith   Aug-31-11 11:43 AM   #4 
  - if Abbot had stolen a ball point pen from Canul, would you still defend the shooting and killing?  DrDan   Aug-31-11 11:44 AM   #5 
  - Yup.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 11:52 AM   #10 
  - I think the question is - do you have the right to kill people that have stolen from you  DrDan   Aug-31-11 11:56 AM   #12 
  - Depends on the state.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 11:59 AM   #16 
  - how about an answer from a moral perspective  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:01 PM   #19 
     - I already answered, but I'll answer again:  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:13 PM   #31 
     - Explain the morals of the criminal. n/t  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 12:14 PM   #32 
     - the issue at hand is whether a killing is justified if one's property is stolen  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:15 PM   #34 
        - "how about an answer from a moral perspective"  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 12:35 PM   #44 
        - and the issue at hand is - is it right to "kill" to protect property  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:48 PM   #49 
           - "is it right to "kill" to protect property"  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 12:52 PM   #53 
              - Absolutely. n/t  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:56 PM   #56 
        - Yes, deadly force is justified to defend property.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:53 PM   #54 
           - So, if a person were to consider taxes to be theft, is deadly force justified? n/t  bigmonkey   Aug-31-11 12:58 PM   #59 
              - Well, the government is willing to use deadly force to make you pay.... n/t  PavePusher   Aug-31-11 01:34 PM   #78 
              - Taxes are not theft, so no.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 03:00 PM   #100 
                 - But you would support someone else's decision that they are, and to respond with deadly force?  bigmonkey   Aug-31-11 03:10 PM   #107 
                    - No...  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 03:30 PM   #113 
                    - Following the law seems not to be an issue for most "property is primary" folks.  bigmonkey   Aug-31-11 03:51 PM   #119 
                       - Not quite.  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 04:04 PM   #124 
                          - Your response is directed at elements of my statement that are not in evidence.  bigmonkey   Aug-31-11 04:12 PM   #126 
                    - No.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 04:14 PM   #129 
                       - You think it's pretty clear.  bigmonkey   Aug-31-11 04:34 PM   #139 
     - From a "moral perspective"? Yes...  MicaelS   Aug-31-11 12:16 PM   #35 
     - is there any dollar value that does not justify taking a life?  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:19 PM   #37 
        - The dollar value that keeps someone from being hungry or homeless. n/t  MicaelS   Aug-31-11 12:20 PM   #38 
        - so if the property is of inconsequential value, a killing is not justified  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:22 PM   #39 
           - Who determines "inconsequential value", you?  MicaelS   Aug-31-11 12:31 PM   #41 
              - nor am I  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:51 PM   #51 
              - interesting that you do not trust someone who places the value of a human life over property  DrDan   Aug-31-11 01:53 PM   #88 
                 - Read what I wrote...  MicaelS   Aug-31-11 10:17 PM   #162 
                    - I did - and as I said  DrDan   Sep-01-11 06:19 AM   #167 
                       - You miss some very important points...  MicaelS   Sep-01-11 11:03 AM   #171 
        - I'm not the one placing a value on a life...  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 01:00 PM   #61 
        - you pull a trigger and take someone's life - you have made yourself the  DrDan   Aug-31-11 01:10 PM   #64 
        - Simple question:  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 01:21 PM   #70 
           - more "gun logic" - "mess with me at your risk"  DrDan   Aug-31-11 01:22 PM   #72 
              - That is not what I said.  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 01:26 PM   #73 
              - and you are deciding to pull the trigger knowing full well you are taking a life  DrDan   Aug-31-11 01:31 PM   #75 
                 - Wrong again.  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 01:45 PM   #84 
              - EXACTLY.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 03:26 PM   #109 
        - Well stated! n/t  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 01:11 PM   #66 
           - Thank you n/t  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 01:21 PM   #71 
        - Of course there is.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 03:05 PM   #102 
     - How much moral standing is a thief worth?  one-eyed fat man   Aug-31-11 02:55 PM   #98 
        - "The clear implication is he held the victim's life as less valuable than the victim's paycheck. "  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 03:10 PM   #106 
        - The value of a thief  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 04:45 PM   #140 
  - The question really is....  We_Have_A_Problem   Sep-01-11 01:10 PM   #196 
  - aargh, deleted  iverglas   Nov-18-11 03:37 PM   #209 
  - Are you offering to reimburse Canul for his stolen money? n/t  PavePusher   Aug-31-11 12:29 PM   #40 
  - I have no idea what that has to do with the issue being discussed  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:54 PM   #55 
     - Well, if you don't want people shooting criminals who attempt to abscond...  PavePusher   Aug-31-11 01:32 PM   #77 
        - no middle ground - hmmmmm  DrDan   Aug-31-11 01:35 PM   #80 
           - The "middle ground" is...  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 01:51 PM   #87 
           - The thief/robber is free to drop the money at any time.  PavePusher   Aug-31-11 03:57 PM   #122 
              - if that were the case, I would defend your action  DrDan   Sep-01-11 08:57 AM   #169 
                 - Interesting....  We_Have_A_Problem   Sep-01-11 12:53 PM   #185 
                    - that example stated a specific use for that money - cancer treatment  DrDan   Sep-01-11 12:59 PM   #189 
                       - So in your mind...  We_Have_A_Problem   Sep-01-11 01:06 PM   #193 
  - Are we talking about a 14-karat gold-filled Cross pen here, or just a plain 19-cent Bic?  slackmaster   Aug-31-11 01:43 PM   #83 
     - to some here, it makes no difference  DrDan   Aug-31-11 01:55 PM   #89 
  - what if he saw him the next day on the street?  Enrique   Aug-31-11 11:49 AM   #6 
  - A little absurd.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 11:54 AM   #11 
  - Why not? We could call it the "Inigo Montoya" defense...  petronius   Aug-31-11 11:59 AM   #17 
  - In your hypothetical, is the criminal still threatening people with a deadly weapon?  Union Scribe   Aug-31-11 10:50 PM   #163 
  - Responsible Gun Ownership 101: A perp running away from you is no longer presenting a deadly threat  rocktivity   Aug-31-11 11:49 AM   #7 
  - You defend this?  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-31-11 11:51 AM   #9 
  - Defense of property.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 11:57 AM   #14 
     - ahhhh - but you said up-thread that you support the killing even if it had been an ink pen  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:00 PM   #18 
     - Yup.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:07 PM   #25 
        - thanks - and appreciate the honesty in admitting that your property is more  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:11 PM   #29 
           - But remember, I'm not setting the value.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:15 PM   #33 
              - YOU are setting the value of his life as taking it is in your hands  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:17 PM   #36 
              - If a thief values his life more than my stuff...  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:46 PM   #47 
                 - if you are the decider as to whether a life is taken - you are setting the value  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:49 PM   #50 
                    - If they are the decider as to whether to risk their life - they are setting the value.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:59 PM   #60 
                    - If you willingly...  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 01:03 PM   #62 
                    - Where have I heard that argument before, hmmmmmm  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 01:27 PM   #74 
                       - how absurd  DrDan   Aug-31-11 01:37 PM   #81 
                          - Not absurd at all  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 02:05 PM   #92 
                             - more personal insults -so typical of here  DrDan   Aug-31-11 04:56 PM   #143 
                                - You seem to be confusing having one's ideas exposed as hypocritical BS with personal insult.  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 11:37 AM   #174 
                                - you mean like this:  DrDan   Sep-01-11 12:09 PM   #181 
                                   - No, I mean this:  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 12:42 PM   #182 
                                      - and you have an example demonstrating that point, now don't you  DrDan   Sep-01-11 12:48 PM   #183 
                                         - Yes, the example is your last response to someone explaining how your ideas were wrong, which you  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 12:56 PM   #186 
                                            - telling someone they are not bright enough to comprehend their post  DrDan   Sep-01-11 12:57 PM   #187 
                                            - No one said you were not bright enough.  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 01:00 PM   #191 
                                - I didnt see any personal insults....  We_Have_A_Problem   Sep-01-11 11:53 AM   #179 
                                   - well . . . here's one example  DrDan   Sep-01-11 12:08 PM   #180 
                                      - Uh, Dan, thats an opinion. Had the poster stated something like...  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 12:58 PM   #188 
                                      - an insult - but, I would expect nothing less than denial here  DrDan   Sep-01-11 01:00 PM   #190 
                                         - I guess I will just end with a repeat of what I stated earlier...  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 01:02 PM   #192 
                                      - Not an insult.  We_Have_A_Problem   Sep-01-11 01:13 PM   #197 
              - I think you hit it perfectly with that statement.  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 11:32 AM   #173 
     - So, if I scratched the paint on your car, you'd feel justified in shooting me  RaleighNCDUer   Aug-31-11 12:01 PM   #20 
     - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Aug-31-11 12:10 PM   #26 
     - It depends on the situation.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 05:53 PM   #152 
     - no  gejohnston   Aug-31-11 10:10 PM   #161 
     - Is the car scratcher trying to steal the paint?  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 11:38 AM   #175 
     - You may be content with that, but the law isn't, and...  TreasonousBastard   Aug-31-11 12:02 PM   #21 
        - Depends on where you live.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:10 PM   #27 
  - "If and when it ever gets to a grand jury..."  DWC   Aug-31-11 11:59 AM   #15 
  - "Once he took off with the money . . . "  DrDan   Aug-31-11 12:04 PM   #22 
  - Even money bet  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 12:10 PM   #28 
     - 185gr +P rounds? That's pretty quick for a forty five...  OneTenthofOnePercent   Aug-31-11 01:41 PM   #82 
     - Self defense hand loads  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 02:40 PM   #97 
        - 165g 45's I need to get some of those for mine.  ileus   Aug-31-11 04:24 PM   #133 
           - Have you tested for penetration?  OneTenthofOnePercent   Aug-31-11 05:11 PM   #147 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Aug-31-11 02:39 PM   #96 
        - Don't mistake confidence for boasting,  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 03:15 PM   #108 
           - Posting about how you are going to pull your gun and shoot an unarmed man -- ain't "confidence."  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 03:27 PM   #110 
              - That was not what he said.  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 03:29 PM   #112 
              - That's what this thread is about, and our friend says you die if you take something from him.  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 03:40 PM   #115 
                 - Maybe you should talk to some victims of violent crime  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 03:43 PM   #117 
                    - I have been a victim of some CCWass pulling a gun on me (more than once) -- handled it w/o one too.  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 04:10 PM   #125 
                       - If someone really pulled a gun on you  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 04:27 PM   #136 
                       - Like I said, I took care of it myself each time. You don't like being reminded of why guns aren't  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 04:59 PM   #145 
                          - I have no problem with someone who believes....  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 05:35 PM   #149 
                          - So YOU were the judge, jury and punishment! How uncivilized, fisticuffs in the middle of the street  oneshooter   Aug-31-11 08:09 PM   #160 
                          - If it's the minority of folks  rl6214   Aug-31-11 10:54 PM   #164 
                          - Simple, the majority of folks don't know what today's gunners are like. They need to be reminded  Hoyt   Sep-01-11 06:04 AM   #166 
                             - What's "chit"?  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 11:42 AM   #178 
                          - The verdict is in on your claim...  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 11:41 AM   #177 
                       - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Aug-31-11 06:15 PM   #154 
                       - When? Where? Proof? You are making that up out of whole cloth. A total fabrication.  cleanhippie   Sep-01-11 11:40 AM   #176 
              - WTF! - "shoot an unarmed man"  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 03:40 PM   #116 
              - Hey Hoyt, find those balls yet?  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 03:54 PM   #121 
                 - People who say they're gonna shoot anyone who takes something from them, deserve no apology.  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 04:13 PM   #128 
                    - Just because you cannot...  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 04:28 PM   #137 
                    - Imagination? LMAO. Paranoia and callousness more like it.  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 04:56 PM   #142 
                       - There is neither.  We_Have_A_Problem   Aug-31-11 05:36 PM   #150 
                    - I guess this would be OK for you  rl6214   Aug-31-11 10:56 PM   #165 
                    - The apology was for YOUR blantant lie  Spoonman   Sep-02-11 01:46 PM   #207 
              - Dishonest sack of shit?  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 03:46 PM   #118 
                 - Might be if someone made a false statement, but you are the one bragging about shooting someone with  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 04:15 PM   #130 
                    - You really expect us to believe you are that ignorant?  Spoonman   Sep-02-11 01:52 PM   #208 
  - eyewittness account  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:06 PM   #23 
  - "...Thats when Jesse shot him when he took off running...He was maybe eight to 10 feet away..."  rocktivity   Aug-31-11 01:17 PM   #68 
  - Reads like a good shooting to me...  ileus   Aug-31-11 04:29 PM   #138 
     - You better get yourself a good lawyer then. Being charged with murder don't seem fun. nt  jmg257   Aug-31-11 04:49 PM   #141 
     - So shooting someone in the back as they are running away  RaleighNCDUer   Sep-01-11 08:35 PM   #205 
  - Another shooting by a gun carrier with a permit. They tell us it doesn't happen, but it does.  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 12:46 PM   #48 
  - No, you are told it doesn't happen OFTEN.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 12:52 PM   #52 
  - But not less likely than the 90% or so who could get a permit, but realize it's not necessary  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 01:48 PM   #86 
     - Wrong. They are still safer compared to those 90% who could get a permit  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 02:59 PM   #99 
        - No, that is not true. Those who could pass a background check are just as law abiding, yet  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 03:29 PM   #111 
           - How about posting some credible sources to support these assertions?  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 03:52 PM   #120 
           - Incorrect. When compared against THE ENTIRE REST OF THE POPULATION.  Atypical Liberal   Aug-31-11 04:13 PM   #127 
  - "it will happen more and more"  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 01:08 PM   #63 
  - I disagree, the more toters, the more shootings by toters. Further rate will likely increase  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 01:46 PM   #85 
     - "What "overwhelming facts" are you posting about."  Spoonman   Aug-31-11 02:19 PM   #93 
  - He was being assaulted so it's not just  rl6214   Aug-31-11 06:23 PM   #156 
  - I would argue that  one-eyed fat man   Sep-01-11 03:29 PM   #199 
  - I feel for the guy  tularetom   Aug-31-11 12:57 PM   #57 
  - DING DING DING! Tularetom, you're our grand prize winner!  rocktivity   Aug-31-11 01:32 PM   #76 
  - I disagree with you on this one.  Glassunion   Aug-31-11 02:00 PM   #90 
  - The man got what he wanted  Loki   Aug-31-11 02:02 PM   #91 
  - Burglary is not robbery..  X_Digger   Aug-31-11 03:04 PM   #101 
  - Yea, sure, shooting some guy in the back who only has hands/feet doesn't sound like self-defense.  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 03:32 PM   #114 
     - Perhaps you might re-read the post I replied to and try a reply that actually makes sense..  X_Digger   Aug-31-11 04:25 PM   #134 
        - I did read your post and the one you responded to. You were wrong.  Hoyt   Aug-31-11 06:32 PM   #158 
           - Where the fuck did I say shooting someone in the back, dear?  X_Digger   Aug-31-11 07:47 PM   #159 
  - DNA evidence????  one-eyed fat man   Aug-31-11 03:08 PM   #103 
  - "You're coming with me..." Sounds more like a kidnapping at that point.  jmg257   Aug-31-11 04:57 PM   #144 
  - That's just dishonest BS  rl6214   Aug-31-11 06:28 PM   #157 
  - What a coincidence.  rrneck   Aug-31-11 03:09 PM   #105 
  - You gonna be carrying guns for self-defense, you better know the fucking laws.  jmg257   Aug-31-11 03:59 PM   #123 
  - Hopefully he'll draw a friendly jury...  ileus   Aug-31-11 04:20 PM   #131 
  - Gotta disagree with you on this one  rl6214   Aug-31-11 04:22 PM   #132 
  - I think a decent lawyer could at least spin off a plea bargain...  OneTenthofOnePercent   Aug-31-11 05:21 PM   #148 
  - Nope. You shoot a punk in the back who's running away...  Common Sense Party   Aug-31-11 05:37 PM   #151 
  - I strongly disagree. Shooting a thief in the back is murder, though not first degree.  TPaine7   Aug-31-11 06:15 PM   #153 
  - One wonders why he didnt draw and fire before handing the money over  Endangered Specie   Aug-31-11 06:17 PM   #155 
  - Ugh. Legally straightforward, morally a bit trickier  Euromutt   Sep-01-11 06:22 AM   #168 
  - Note that no Anti has offered to reimburse Mr. Canul or other victims of robbery.  PavePusher   Sep-01-11 09:59 AM   #170 
  - I think the telling part is how many "regulars" here are lining up  DrDan   Sep-01-11 12:51 PM   #184 
     - Sure is.  We_Have_A_Problem   Sep-01-11 01:08 PM   #194 
     - I have not seen you offer up your check-book to the victims of robbery.  PavePusher   Sep-01-11 01:51 PM   #198 
     - there is no lack of folks here willing to pull the trigger, is there  DrDan   Sep-01-11 04:09 PM   #200 
        - Nope  We_Have_A_Problem   Sep-01-11 04:46 PM   #201 
     - I think it more telling that MORE of us "regular" "toters" are AGAINST  Common Sense Party   Sep-01-11 05:15 PM   #202 
  - "Canul very probably did the one thing he could to prevent losing his weekly or monthly income."  jmg257   Sep-01-11 01:10 PM   #195 
     - Decisions born of desperation are rarely wise  Euromutt   Sep-01-11 10:03 PM   #206 
  - Sounds like righteous case of murder  Starboard Tack   Sep-01-11 05:37 PM   #203 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-01-11 05:55 PM   #204 

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