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Reply #63: OK, you've raised the issue of unjust laws. That's not what we're talking about here. [View All]

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Straw Man Donating Member (986 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-30-11 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. OK, you've raised the issue of unjust laws. That's not what we're talking about here.
Assuming a liberal democracy (maybe a big assumption, but I maintain that we still have one), then the person robbing is "bad" and the person being robbed is "good." This distinction has to be maintained if society is to function. I don't see that as simplistic. I'm not making an overall judgement on the person, although that's what the OP seems to think that "we" (guns rights advocates, whom he wrongly conflates with conservatives) do.

Yes, Manson had people who loved him. His actions, however, were simply unacceptable and had to be punished. I consider myself a liberal (or progressive, or whatever term you prefer), and I can see that very clearly. Again, nothing simplistic there. We're talking social utility.
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  -Guns and the conservative mind. DanTex  May-29-11 09:52 PM   #0 
  - The gun is good.  Ian David   May-29-11 10:05 PM   #1 
  - Some broadly brushed stereotypes that I don't entirely buy into.  bluerum   May-29-11 10:08 PM   #2 
  - Even though there is no empirical evidence supporting it?  gejohnston   May-29-11 10:47 PM   #7 
     - I can only assume you meant to say "no empirical evidence that I am aware of"  DanTex   May-29-11 11:19 PM   #12 
     - So are they written by criminologists in criminology or law journals?  gejohnston   May-29-11 11:39 PM   #15 
        - Here's the url  DanTex   May-29-11 11:48 PM   #16 
           - I read his stuff and that is not the URL I was referring to  gejohnston   May-29-11 11:57 PM   #18 
           - I bought the book. It is garbage. I will post why later today.  GreenStormCloud   May-30-11 07:45 AM   #23 
              - Why bother?  DanTex   May-30-11 10:44 AM   #30 
              - Personally, I would like to know what he has to add  gejohnston   May-30-11 12:19 PM   #44 
              - Why it is garbage. Part One.  GreenStormCloud   May-30-11 01:54 PM   #57 
              - Why it is garbage. Part Two  GreenStormCloud   May-31-11 08:49 PM   #100 
     - How didn't it work in the UK?  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 09:32 AM   #25 
        - because the murder rate and suicide rate remained the same  gejohnston   May-30-11 10:33 AM   #29 
           - "because the murder rate and suicide rate remained the same"  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 11:20 AM   #33 
              - If the goal was to lower crime rate, it did not.  gejohnston   May-30-11 11:28 AM   #35 
              - The goal of 1997's Amendment was to help avoid another Dunblane massacre  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 11:55 AM   #39 
                 - This is your first post that actually made sense.  gejohnston   May-30-11 12:23 PM   #45 
                 - It does not include kids playing cops and robbers.  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 03:38 PM   #64 
                 - And what was the price of that avoidance?  Atypical Liberal   May-31-11 01:00 PM   #92 
              - Define "always."  Straw Man   May-30-11 01:21 PM   #55 
              - My bad. I was sloppy there.  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 03:53 PM   #65 
                 - Still sloppy...  Straw Man   May-30-11 05:04 PM   #69 
                 - Guns appear to have been less restricted in the UK than they are in the United States now until 1937  benEzra   May-30-11 07:57 PM   #78 
                    - Just a very different mentality towards guns in the UK  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 09:00 PM   #80 
                       - Not just guns---any weapon, it seems. Or at least it used to be that way.  benEzra   May-30-11 09:12 PM   #81 
                       - Interesting! I can relate to that, having lived in both places for many years.  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 10:35 PM   #82 
                          - Your view of the UK is unrealistically rosy.  Straw Man   May-31-11 01:17 AM   #84 
                             - I really wasn't being serious about the "tea and fisticuffs"  Starboard Tack   May-31-11 12:31 PM   #90 
                                - Sorry -- I misread you.  Straw Man   May-31-11 01:03 PM   #94 
                       - If they played by the rules they wouldn't be criminals. nt  rrneck   May-30-11 11:16 PM   #83 
              - "always been strict" ??  X_Digger   May-31-11 11:48 AM   #86 
                 - True. There was little gun control and little gun use.  Starboard Tack   May-31-11 01:02 PM   #93 
                    - We've been through this dance before.. you seem to have forgotten..  X_Digger   May-31-11 02:04 PM   #95 
                       - Wasn't intended to reduce crime, just gun crime. It worked.  Starboard Tack   May-31-11 07:44 PM   #97 
                          - The rare tragidy, that can be avoided, with proper mental health and alert and caring family  gejohnston   May-31-11 08:00 PM   #98 
                          - Unfortunately yes, it was the reason to punish those who were not to blame  Starboard Tack   May-31-11 08:41 PM   #99 
                          - It didn't lower gun crime (generally).  X_Digger   May-31-11 10:25 PM   #101 
  - Hoo Boy...  hlthe2b   May-29-11 10:18 PM   #3 
  - Buttered our unbuttered?  gejohnston   May-30-11 01:05 PM   #54 
  - Simpleminded bullshit, and self- contradictory to boot...  TPaine7   May-29-11 10:22 PM   #4 
  - Thanks for your feedback, and I agree, more accurate would have been "almost invariably".  DanTex   May-29-11 10:33 PM   #5 
     - Wow!!!  TPaine7   May-29-11 10:59 PM   #8 
        - Your supercilious condescension towards anyone who disagrees with you  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 10:18 AM   #27 
        - Your supercilious condescension towards anyone who disagrees with you  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 10:19 AM   #28 
           - Project much?  gejohnston   May-30-11 10:56 AM   #32 
           - OK, I have a little time. I'll engage you.  TPaine7   May-30-11 02:34 PM   #61 
              - Easy. Don't start a dialog with an initial response of "Simpleminded bullshit!"  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 04:04 PM   #66 
              - I know this probably didn't occur to you, but I wanted to get his attention, too.  TPaine7   May-30-11 05:15 PM   #71 
              - Best be careful TPaine7 or you may find your post deliberately misquoted  oneshooter   May-30-11 05:13 PM   #70 
  - why not just come out and say guns kill people? talk about simple minded...  ileus   May-29-11 10:42 PM   #6 
  - Guns *do* kill people. That's their intended purpose. And because of that,  SlimJimmy   May-29-11 11:06 PM   #11 
  - Many robberies, rapes and burglaries have also been committed by  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 09:56 AM   #26 
     - And how many of those guns used in the commission of a crime were not purchased because of gun  SlimJimmy   May-30-11 02:24 PM   #59 
        - Thou dost presume and protest too much  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 04:26 PM   #68 
           - Give me a break. There is no, and hasn't been an explosion of violent crime due to the sale  SlimJimmy   May-30-11 05:55 PM   #72 
              - Major comprehension fail on your part. Try reading more slowly.  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 06:34 PM   #75 
                 - Thanks for typing s-l-o-w-l-y. I don't know what I would have done without that  SlimJimmy   May-31-11 03:06 PM   #96 
  - What, you think that guns don't kill people?  Zoeisright   May-30-11 12:29 AM   #21 
     - No...the gun is a simple machine.  ileus   May-30-11 08:46 PM   #79 
     - It's usually the bullets that kill, not the gun.  Common Sense Party   May-31-11 12:57 PM   #91 
  - "Broad brush stereotypes" is putting it mildly.  Straw Man   May-29-11 11:02 PM   #9 
  - "I'm hard pressed to think of a better social-utilitarian definition of "good" and "bad"  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 10:50 AM   #31 
  - One big step to reducing gun violence would be to stop the War on Drugs ...  spin   May-30-11 12:03 PM   #42 
  - I could not agree more  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 01:46 PM   #56 
  - Not sure I understand your objection.  Straw Man   May-30-11 12:58 PM   #52 
     - Sorry I don't buy your definition of good and bad. Way too simplistic and very conservative.  Starboard Tack   May-30-11 02:26 PM   #60 
        - OK, you've raised the issue of unjust laws. That's not what we're talking about here.  Straw Man   May-30-11 03:25 PM   #63 
  - I love the pro-gun people getting all worked up about me stereotyping conservatives  DanTex   May-30-11 11:54 AM   #38 
     - The problem I have with your post is your conflation of gun owners and conservatives.  benEzra   May-30-11 12:33 PM   #48 
     - Agreed. Some of the most progressive folks I know own personal firearms. We  SlimJimmy   May-30-11 05:59 PM   #73 
     - They're not wholly responsible.  rrneck   May-30-11 12:37 PM   #49 
     - So you agree that you are stereotyping.  Straw Man   May-30-11 12:43 PM   #50 
  - Fear, aggression, dogmatism, and intolerance are all impartial to the false left/right dichotomy.  David West   May-29-11 11:05 PM   #10 
  - Partisan tomfoolery.  rrneck   May-29-11 11:27 PM   #13 
  - Exceptionally intelligent and accurate post. Thank you. n/t  DWC   May-30-11 07:21 AM   #22 
  - Gun control is born from fear and those who fear guns and gun owners fall for gun control  lawodevolution   May-29-11 11:33 PM   #14 
  - Guns empower people to extinguish ALL of each other's genuine Constitutional rights  sharesunited   May-29-11 11:48 PM   #17 
     - Barbaric is being chopped up my a machete in one of you gun free paradises like  lawodevolution   May-30-11 12:13 AM   #19 
     - And that's a power you want reserved for agents of the State, right?  Straw Man   May-30-11 12:27 AM   #20 
     - Speaking of Constitutional rights, how are the negotiations going  oneshooter   May-30-11 11:42 AM   #37 
  - A whole lot of gun control was and is pushed by conservatives or using conservative ideas.  benEzra   May-30-11 09:12 AM   #24 
  - how would you juxtapose this with Guns and the Liberal Mind . . ?  Tuesday Afternoon   May-30-11 11:25 AM   #34 
  - Re: Guns  discntnt_irny_srcsm   May-30-11 11:42 AM   #36 
  - Not sure you want to be quoting David Prosser at this particular moment...  DanTex   May-30-11 12:03 PM   #41 
     - "Not sure you want to be quoting David Prosser..."  discntnt_irny_srcsm   May-30-11 12:59 PM   #53 
  - SOME Liberals favor gun control ...  spin   May-30-11 11:58 AM   #40 
  - Gotta love the conspiracy theories  DanTex   May-30-11 12:09 PM   #43 
     - And you're standing with Bush, Bennett, Guliani, Romney, and the rest.  benEzra   May-30-11 12:27 PM   #46 
     - So if these three changed their minds  gejohnston   May-30-11 12:32 PM   #47 
     - You are dodging my contention that not all liberals support draconian gun control ...  spin   May-30-11 12:50 PM   #51 
     - There is no cognitive dissonance.  TPaine7   May-30-11 02:49 PM   #62 
  - "Invariably worse"? Not even. Try "Very rarely worse" - among good people.  GreenStormCloud   May-30-11 02:05 PM   #58 
  - Not sure what point you're trying for here...there are millions of Democrats with conservative  ergot   May-30-11 04:09 PM   #67 
  - What are your thoughts on using empirical evidence to determine policy?  WatsonT   May-30-11 06:33 PM   #74 
  - But guns are clearly linked to higher crime rates!  eqfan592   May-30-11 06:39 PM   #76 
     - In all 50 states gun ownership is directly and positively linked* to murder rates!  WatsonT   May-30-11 06:43 PM   #77 
  - Factually flawed from the start.  AtheistCrusader   May-31-11 10:13 AM   #85 
  - Great Post - and most conservatives think the 2nd Amendment is ABSOLUTE  jpak   May-31-11 11:55 AM   #87 
  - Ignorant? Check.  eqfan592   May-31-11 12:04 PM   #88 
  - Instead of "nuances", why not just look at STATISICAL DATA?  Atypical Liberal   May-31-11 12:05 PM   #89 

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