ClassWarrior
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Sat Feb-12-11 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #57 |
| 68. By the way, that's exactly the point. There are so many flaws with your analogy... |
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...starting with the difference between responsibly restricting behavior and forcing people to do something.
But the fact that the body count of the innocent rises the more guns there are in the crowd, and it doesn't change no matter how many ankle weights there are in the crowd, is the central flaw in your analogy.
NGU.
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| -Why do gun lovers claim to be "law-abiding," yet use criminal activity to... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 11:23 AM |
#0 |
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I'm sorry, but I find your OP nonsensical. |
Common Sense Party |
Feb-12-11 11:25 AM |
#1 |
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So-called "law-abiding" g.o.s want to get rid of the laws - and use criminal activity to justify it. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 11:30 AM |
#5 |
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Is there something illegal about wanting to change laws? |
ixion |
Feb-12-11 11:49 AM |
#12 |
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Is there something moral about using criminal activity to justify the change? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 11:53 AM |
#14 |
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uh, well, the impetus for ANY change or addition to the law books is some type of activity, criminal |
ixion |
Feb-12-11 12:20 PM |
#23 |
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So you're saying "law-abiding" g.o.s do empathize with criminals? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:22 PM |
#25 |
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okay, a few points: |
ixion |
Feb-12-11 12:24 PM |
#27 |
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Apologies. I edited the "movement" comment to clarify my point. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:25 PM |
#28 |
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Much appreciated... |
ixion |
Feb-12-11 01:20 PM |
#52 |
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Your argument really doesn't follow. |
MineralMan |
Feb-12-11 11:27 AM |
#2 |
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Yeah, I don't know why I expected anyone here to "understand" it here. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 11:29 AM |
#3 |
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The gun forum is best left to the gunnies |
liberal N proud |
Feb-12-11 11:30 AM |
#4 |
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Actually, I'm not a "gungeon" guy. But your argument doesn't |
MineralMan |
Feb-12-11 11:46 AM |
#10 |
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Or, perhaps you need to re-examine your premise |
ixion |
Feb-12-11 11:51 AM |
#13 |
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True. Here's a strawman on a logical path. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 11:56 AM |
#17 |
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That's all snarky bad and everything...but |
ixion |
Feb-12-11 12:21 PM |
# |
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I think they are saying most gun owners are law-abiding, but violent criminals are not law abiding. |
ZombieHorde |
Feb-12-11 11:35 AM |
#6 |
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Well, apparently they're reluctantly "law-abiding" since they don't want laws. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 11:38 AM |
#8 |
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Almost all gun owners want gun regulations. The argument is about which regulations are appropriate. |
ZombieHorde |
Feb-12-11 11:45 AM |
#9 |
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Wow, how generous of them. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 11:46 AM |
#11 |
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If I wanted to restrict gun rights, I would examine the regulations gun advocates generally agreed |
ZombieHorde |
Feb-12-11 11:55 AM |
#15 |
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That's sensible and responsible. And no justification by criminal activity necessary. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 11:58 AM |
#18 |
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You're right, to an extent. |
NewMoonTherian |
Feb-12-11 06:20 PM |
#165 |
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Here! Here! - if you do not abide by the law - you are a law breaker |
jpak |
Feb-12-11 11:36 AM |
#7 |
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Ever brought beer to a college party with under-21s present? |
Euromutt |
Feb-12-11 05:46 PM |
#157 |
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WTF? |
here_is_to_hope |
Feb-12-11 11:56 AM |
#16 |
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I respect that right, especially the "well-regulated" part. Words matter. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:10 PM |
#20 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-12-11 12:23 PM |
#26 |
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This has been clarified time and time again. |
armueller2001 |
Feb-12-11 01:22 PM |
#53 |
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I'm sure it's an intentional effort to confuse the issue as it has been said time |
Hoopla Phil |
Feb-12-11 01:35 PM |
#64 |
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Well regulated - of like and kind as the "regulars". You knew that right? |
Hoopla Phil |
Feb-12-11 01:32 PM |
#61 |
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Yes, words matter. So does understanding what they mean. |
beevul |
Feb-12-11 02:32 PM |
#110 |
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We are doing that to point out that certain laws are ineffect in achieving |
GreenStormCloud |
Feb-12-11 12:09 PM |
#19 |
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Because you say so? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:14 PM |
#21 |
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By design, a "gun free zone" fails a logical test. |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 12:33 PM |
#32 |
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You're missing most of the argument you are trying to represent. |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 12:16 PM |
#22 |
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So you're saying you want to tote your guns where the criminals do so you can have shoot-outs? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:21 PM |
#24 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-12-11 12:27 PM |
#29 |
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No, actually I'm guessing this is the core of the entire matter. If "the good people" are... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:39 PM |
#33 |
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Of course, once everyone is carrying guns with few restrictions, just who gets to decide... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:42 PM |
#35 |
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Your guesses are pretty bad. |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 12:49 PM |
#41 |
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That's exactly your point in post #32. I quote... "If a criminal has a gun..." |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:51 PM |
#43 |
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One modification-- can't protect *themselves*. |
X_Digger |
Feb-12-11 01:09 PM |
#50 |
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Ahhh, so it's a selfish motive? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:33 PM |
#63 |
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If he claims his motives are self protection... why is that selfish? |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 01:36 PM |
#66 |
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It's called "speak with forked tongue" |
shadowrider |
Feb-12-11 01:40 PM |
#69 |
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Deleted sub-thread |
Name removed |
Feb-12-11 01:45 PM |
#71 |
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He said he has no interest in protecting the public, just himself. And he said he's for shootouts. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:46 PM |
#73 |
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Did you know a police officer has no duty to protect anyone who is not held in their custody? |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 02:17 PM |
#96 |
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It's called self-defense.. not public-defense. |
X_Digger |
Feb-12-11 01:39 PM |
#67 |
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NOTHING in any of my post said anything about carrying firearms or shootouts. |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 12:41 PM |
#34 |
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That's exactly your point in post #32. I quote... "If a criminal has a gun..." |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:44 PM |
#37 |
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Perhaps you should respond to the correct subthreads so that readers know what you are referring to. |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 12:55 PM |
#45 |
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Ahhh... my value system doesn't change depending on the subthread. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:57 PM |
#47 |
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That wasn't my point. |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 01:14 PM |
#51 |
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So if the law does no harm, what do you care? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:26 PM |
#55 |
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Useless != 'does no harm' n/t |
X_Digger |
Feb-12-11 01:29 PM |
#56 |
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Okay, explain. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:30 PM |
#58 |
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Oh, nevermind. You already explained. You're for the freedom to shootout. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:31 PM |
#59 |
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See response #39. n/t |
X_Digger |
Feb-12-11 01:32 PM |
#60 |
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So if the law has no benefit, why do you care? |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 01:35 PM |
#65 |
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Answer my question first. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:41 PM |
#70 |
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I did... "Waste of taxpayer time & money" |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 01:45 PM |
#72 |
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Wow, is that all you got? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:48 PM |
#75 |
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"I don't care if the law has no benefit." -- saved that one for later. |
X_Digger |
Feb-12-11 01:50 PM |
#76 |
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In a free society, laws and restrictions should be justified. |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 01:59 PM |
#80 |
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The goal is to end senseless death and injury. Show me that a shootout is more effective at that... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:01 PM |
#82 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-12-11 02:12 PM |
#91 |
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Exactly. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:16 PM |
#95 |
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Au contraire, mon frère |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 02:28 PM |
#104 |
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Links please. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:31 PM |
#108 |
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Here. |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 03:12 PM |
#122 |
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Here are some examples: |
GreenStormCloud |
Feb-12-11 05:27 PM |
#150 |
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Isolated incidents. Show me some statistics comparing with and without. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 05:28 PM |
#152 |
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You are moving the goalposts. |
GreenStormCloud |
Feb-13-11 08:54 AM |
#169 |
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And please don't put words in my mouth. You asked, "If the law has no benefit..." |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:04 PM |
#85 |
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So we are in agreement... |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 02:15 PM |
#94 |
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I don't necessarily agree that so-called "feel good" laws have no benefits. But I agree that... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:19 PM |
#98 |
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You're conflating two groups. Non Sequitur -- it does not follow. |
X_Digger |
Feb-12-11 12:29 PM |
#30 |
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Why are the ones who are "scrupulous in following the law" so zealous in wanting to vaporize it? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:31 PM |
#31 |
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Because I, who follows the law |
shadowrider |
Feb-12-11 12:42 PM |
#36 |
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So once there are no laws, how will I know who are the lawbreakers and who aren't? Or am I just... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:48 PM |
#40 |
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Because the other group is not likely to follow the law.. |
X_Digger |
Feb-12-11 12:46 PM |
#39 |
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So you want the freedom to have shootouts? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:49 PM |
#42 |
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I have the freedom to attempt to resist violent attack. |
X_Digger |
Feb-12-11 12:53 PM |
#44 |
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I'll take that as a "yes." |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 12:55 PM |
#46 |
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Yes, that was a yes, but not using the perjorative terms you attempted to use to frame it. n/t |
X_Digger |
Feb-12-11 12:57 PM |
#48 |
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So you want me to meekly submit to being murdered by a criminal? N/T |
GreenStormCloud |
Feb-12-11 05:01 PM |
#140 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-12-11 12:45 PM |
#38 |
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Your post makes no sense |
kudzu22 |
Feb-12-11 01:09 PM |
#49 |
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I've never seen children get slaughtered in an ankle weight shootout. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:25 PM |
#54 |
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Not the point |
kudzu22 |
Feb-12-11 01:30 PM |
#57 |
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But why is it stupid? If it's stupid, you shouldn't have to resort... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:33 PM |
#62 |
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It is stupid because |
kudzu22 |
Feb-12-11 01:48 PM |
#74 |
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I'm not the one who brings up criminals in these arguments. Re-read my OP. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:51 PM |
#78 |
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Re-read your post #62 in which you said I make moral common ground with criminals |
kudzu22 |
Feb-12-11 02:03 PM |
#84 |
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I didn't say you necessarily do. I said many of your fellow travelers do. Someone brings up... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:11 PM |
#89 |
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Would you care to cite examples of where someone has said that? |
shadowrider |
Feb-12-11 02:17 PM |
#97 |
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I saw it here this morning. The thread is still on the Guns page, above the fold. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:20 PM |
#99 |
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I take that back. It has one rec. Someone had to unrec it, apparently to hide it. Soon... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:25 PM |
#102 |
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Nah. You provide the link. That isn't against the rules. Calling out by name is |
shadowrider |
Feb-12-11 02:29 PM |
#106 |
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I already know your interpretation of it is different than mine, but that post is where... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:33 PM |
#111 |
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"Accurate REphrasing" - Is that like a movie that's "Based" on real life events |
shadowrider |
Feb-12-11 02:39 PM |
#113 |
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It's stupid because it doesn't work. nt |
rrneck |
Feb-12-11 02:15 PM |
#93 |
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Proof? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:22 PM |
#100 |
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Here's one... |
rrneck |
Feb-12-11 02:31 PM |
#109 |
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Okay, show proof of how that's more lethal than a campus full of gun toters. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:36 PM |
#112 |
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C'mon... Tell us how several thousand armed-to-the-teeth teenagers... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:42 PM |
#114 |
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Hell, tell us how several armed-to-the-teeth teenagers... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:45 PM |
#117 |
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I don't know that they would. |
rrneck |
Feb-12-11 03:03 PM |
#121 |
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Really? That's the subject of my OP? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 04:24 PM |
#134 |
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Granted, the actual subject of the OP is difficult to determine. |
rrneck |
Feb-12-11 05:21 PM |
#147 |
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Why do you think there would be several thousand? |
rrneck |
Feb-12-11 03:00 PM |
#120 |
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Teens can't get CCW permits. You FAIL again. N/T |
GreenStormCloud |
Feb-12-11 05:08 PM |
#142 |
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How many "gun toters" constitutes a "campus full"? nt |
rrneck |
Feb-12-11 02:43 PM |
#115 |
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C'mon |
rrneck |
Feb-12-11 03:13 PM |
#123 |
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Anti's don't dig up statistics. They make an assertion then want others |
shadowrider |
Feb-12-11 03:16 PM |
#124 |
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Yeah, blind faith is like that. nt |
rrneck |
Feb-12-11 03:18 PM |
#125 |
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By the way, that's exactly the point. There are so many flaws with your analogy... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:40 PM |
#68 |
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My analogy has nothing to do with body count |
kudzu22 |
Feb-12-11 01:50 PM |
#77 |
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Then why doesn't one? Why don't many? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 01:52 PM |
#79 |
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Actually, the facts prove you are way wrong. |
DonP |
Feb-12-11 02:02 PM |
#83 |
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The problem with your arguments through all of this is |
YllwFvr |
Feb-12-11 02:11 PM |
#90 |
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Proof? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:14 PM |
#92 |
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Of charges being dropped? |
YllwFvr |
Feb-12-11 02:27 PM |
#103 |
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That the laws dont do anything. Why are you avoiding the question? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:30 PM |
#107 |
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Ah I mistook what you were questioning |
YllwFvr |
Feb-12-11 02:43 PM |
#116 |
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Some links would help. And why take out the "accidents" and suicides? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:48 PM |
#118 |
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05 there were 10k homicides by handgun |
YllwFvr |
Feb-12-11 02:59 PM |
#119 |
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Yeah, but isn't a proliferation of unregulated guns responsible for "accidents" like shooting... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 04:08 PM |
#128 |
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How can something which does not exist... |
beevul |
Feb-12-11 04:16 PM |
#130 |
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You know what I'm trying to ask. Quit feigning confusion. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 04:20 PM |
#131 |
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Hmmm? |
beevul |
Feb-12-11 04:33 PM |
#138 |
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You are wrong. Greatest body counts are from single shooters. |
GreenStormCloud |
Feb-12-11 05:13 PM |
#144 |
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That is demonstrably untrue |
kudzu22 |
Feb-12-11 05:34 PM |
#155 |
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What you are saying is that if someone obeys a gun law but wants to go through the |
lawodevolution |
Feb-12-11 02:00 PM |
#81 |
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So once there's no more laws, who gets to judge who's the bad guys and... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:06 PM |
#87 |
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Murder will always be illegal |
lawodevolution |
Feb-12-11 02:22 PM |
#101 |
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Really? What about if you're carrying your legally-owned gun and you can... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:28 PM |
#105 |
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By "get away with" I assume you mean "judged by a jury of your peers" |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 03:32 PM |
#127 |
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Oh yeah, that'll bring the lives back. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 04:21 PM |
#133 |
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So courts and trials are now meaningless because the acions of the accused can never be undone? |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 05:28 PM |
#151 |
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No, that's the logic many of your fellow travelers use for eliminating gun laws. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 05:30 PM |
#153 |
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There are plenty of effective gun laws. Do you have any links showing "my side's" logic? |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 05:53 PM |
#158 |
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That's true, I'm sure, and I appreciate it. Take nadinbrzezinski, for instance. She's... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 06:15 PM |
#164 |
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Do you really think... |
beevul |
Feb-12-11 03:29 PM |
#126 |
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I see any reasonable call for responsible, sensible regulation pissed on into oblivion. Every time. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 04:28 PM |
#135 |
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And to get back to the OP, it's often justified with criminal activity. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 04:30 PM |
#136 |
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Perhaps calling something reasonable does not make something reasonable. |
beevul |
Feb-12-11 04:49 PM |
#139 |
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Pick any thread on this forum. You'll admit that some regulation is sensible and responsible, right? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 05:26 PM |
#149 |
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I have seen few (1) reasonable proposal. |
beevul |
Feb-13-11 12:25 AM |
#168 |
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Face it. The number of regulations you consider reasonable is so small as to be statistically... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-13-11 05:05 PM |
#174 |
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Thank you... |
beevul |
Feb-13-11 06:02 PM |
#175 |
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Please tell us what are"responsible, sensible regulation " I would like to know. n/t |
oneshooter |
Feb-12-11 08:50 PM |
#166 |
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If you don't care that laws can have no benefit... why do you care about the laws at all? |
OneTenthofOnePercent |
Feb-12-11 02:05 PM |
#86 |
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That's quite the opposite of what I said, and you know that because you posed the question. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 02:07 PM |
#88 |
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Non-Gonococcal Urethritis? North Greenville University? Naval Station Norfolk? |
Euromutt |
Feb-12-11 04:09 PM |
#129 |
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Haha. Heard 'em all before. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 04:21 PM |
#132 |
| -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
Feb-12-11 04:31 PM |
#137 |
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Given your confrontational attitude in this thread... |
Euromutt |
Feb-12-11 05:06 PM |
#141 |
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I've only responded in kind. In most cases I've been extremely polite. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 05:20 PM |
#146 |
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You established the tone of hostility in your OP |
Marengo |
Feb-13-11 10:53 AM |
#171 |
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How? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-13-11 05:02 PM |
#173 |
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And it's the ludicrously narrow definition of "law-abiding" again |
Euromutt |
Feb-12-11 05:12 PM |
#143 |
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If I understand correctly, its because the state does little or nothing to protect the obedient |
aikoaiko |
Feb-12-11 05:16 PM |
#145 |
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Protect in what way? Do you call the right to shootouts "protection?" |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 05:23 PM |
#148 |
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"right to shootouts"??? strange |
aikoaiko |
Feb-12-11 05:35 PM |
#156 |
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I would call it the right to defend yourself with total disregard for others. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 06:01 PM |
#160 |
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I can't speak for others, but I'm fine with average resident (otherwise not prohibited) |
aikoaiko |
Feb-12-11 06:03 PM |
#162 |
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LOL... yeah, thanks Google... |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 06:10 PM |
#163 |
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We are happy with the present laws |
hack89 |
Feb-12-11 05:30 PM |
#154 |
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The present laws are all perfect? |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-12-11 05:59 PM |
#159 |
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None that have been proposed. nt |
hack89 |
Feb-12-11 06:01 PM |
#161 |
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You do understand that pointing out the existence of criminality does not make one either |
petronius |
Feb-12-11 11:33 PM |
#167 |
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How many pot-smokers use criminal activity to... |
krispos42 |
Feb-13-11 09:04 AM |
#170 |
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They don't use it "to justify" anything. They engage in it. |
ClassWarrior |
Feb-13-11 12:25 PM |
#172 |
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Because there's never been any serious discussion about drug laws... |
krispos42 |
Feb-13-11 09:58 PM |
#176 |
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