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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-29-11 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #54
55. Thoughts...
How many bullets are enough or too little? Is there anyone on the gun side that has a reasonable response to this? Do you all agree on it?

An upper bound of 19-20 rounds for pistols and 30 for rifles (reflecting the standard capacities of the most popular lawfully owned civilian guns), not counting the round in the chamber, would be reasonable, though I don't see it as necessary or helpful. Nor, unfortunately, do I see the gun-control lobby backing away from their 1860s-ish 10-round limit.

I hear often that there should be no limits. If that's the case, what exactly does no limits include?

You mostly hear that as a false caricature of the pro-gun-ownership side. It does not reflect reality.

Existing Federal law, by longstanding consensus, places very tight controls (10-year Federal felony for unauthorized manufacture/possession, with a few exceptions) on the following:

  • Automatic weapons (machineguns, submachineguns, burst mode weapons, actual assault rifles, guns easily convertible to full auto)

  • Weapons over .50 caliber, except shotguns and some over-.50 hunting rifles (a 12-gauge shotgun is .73 caliber)

  • Sound suppressed firearms

  • Rifles with barrels shorter than 16" or overall length shorter than 26"

  • Shotguns with barrels shorter than 18" or overall length shorter than 26"

  • Disguised firearms (wallet guns, cell phone guns, cane guns, etc.)

  • Firearms undetectable by X-ray

  • Armor-piercing ammunition for handguns and the most popular rifles

  • Possession of any gun or any round of ammunition by anyone convicted of any felony or certain misdemeanors

  • Possession of any gun or any round of ammunition by anyone adjudicated mentally incompetent

There are more, but those are the high points. The relevant legislation is the National Firearms Act of 1934, the Gun Control Act of 1968, the McClure-Volkmer Act of 1986, the armor-piercing bullet ban of 1986 as amended in 1994, and a couple of miscellaneous laws.

Most gun owners, and even the NRA, are OK with the above. The gun issue is primarily about preserving the existing right of mentally competent adults with clean records to lawfully purchase, own, and use non-automatic, non-sound-suppressed NFA Title 1 civilian firearms (plus shotguns) without harassment. It is not about legalizing machineguns, guns for toddlers, etc.

Is a .50 cal acceptable to you all?

.50 caliber is the upper boundary of what has been considered an ordinary civilian firearm for many decades. Guns .51 caliber and up are restricted as "destructive devices" by Federal law, with exemptions for shotguns (typically .73 caliber) and a handful of big-game hunting rifles (e.g. .585 Nyati or .700 Nitro Express).

Do you stop at a rifle, or does this include the machine gun with a belt fed clip?

All machineguns, regardless of whether they are fed by linked belts, magazines, clips (very rare!), or feed hoppers, are as tightly controlled in this country as 500-lb bombs, howitzers, and shoulder-fired rockets and have been for 76 years.

Seriously, where, if at all does it end for you?

Non-automatic, non-sound-suppressed NFA Title 1 civilian firearms under .51 caliber, plus shotguns. I do not support restrictions on rifle stock shape (e.g., the "assault weapons ban") or ridiculously low limits on magazine capacity.
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  -Some criteria for an adult discussion of gun control. beevul  Jan-27-11 10:32 PM   #0 
  - lol calling people dishonest & telling people to quit pretending sounds pretty adult to me nt  msongs   Jan-27-11 10:35 PM   #1 
  - If it walks like a duck, and looks like a duck...  beevul   Jan-27-11 10:36 PM   #2 
  - If SCOTUS isn't helping, it is part of the problem.  sharesunited   Jan-27-11 10:47 PM   #3 
  - Unless it's repealed, the 2nd Amendment isn't going anywhere  badtoworse   Jan-28-11 08:05 AM   #35 
  - So, your 'criteria' for an adult discussion  enlightenment   Jan-27-11 10:51 PM   #4 
  - Which number in my post contains an example of that?  beevul   Jan-27-11 10:53 PM   #5 
     - I'm not going to do comparisons - that's not the point.  enlightenment   Jan-27-11 11:15 PM   #9 
        - Heres the point.  beevul   Jan-28-11 12:19 AM   #15 
  - On any topic on DU, the only way to have an adult conversation is to only reply to  petronius   Jan-27-11 11:06 PM   #6 
  - Touche.  beevul   Jan-28-11 01:27 AM   #22 
  - Ok, Ill bite...  whoneedstickets   Jan-27-11 11:08 PM   #7 
  - Under the law that "shoulder thing lady" proposed  guitar man   Jan-27-11 11:34 PM   #10 
  - Take a deep breath...  whoneedstickets   Jan-27-11 11:39 PM   #11 
     - I don't own any automatic weapons  guitar man   Jan-27-11 11:45 PM   #12 
     - Ok, but by analogy...  whoneedstickets   Jan-27-11 11:55 PM   #13 
        - It's pretty valuable as it is  guitar man   Jan-28-11 12:02 AM   #14 
        - As the proposed law is currently written there are no exemptions for any  oneshooter   Jan-28-11 07:28 AM   #30 
        - Sporting purposes are being tested again by .......The Working Group .  Katya Mullethov   Jan-28-11 07:49 AM   #34 
        - You would be wrong  one-eyed fat man   Jan-28-11 09:23 AM   #36 
        - Glacier Gal, saw her last year. Great aircraft! n/t  oneshooter   Jan-28-11 09:28 AM   #37 
        - There is still a problem.  one-eyed fat man   Jan-28-11 11:43 AM   #43 
        - wow  Nuclear Unicorn   Jan-28-11 02:34 PM   #46 
        - NFA problems  one-eyed fat man   Jan-28-11 12:40 PM   #45 
           - One could choose a trust  Katya Mullethov   Jan-28-11 06:12 PM   #48 
     - Automatic weapons- machineguns, etc-have been relegated to a special category  old mark   Jan-28-11 12:57 AM   #18 
        - Limited to those who can play the game...OR...  whoneedstickets   Jan-28-11 01:02 AM   #19 
        - Theres a huge difference though...  beevul   Jan-28-11 01:25 AM   #21 
        - Sure, a capacity limit wouldn't be easy to implement.  whoneedstickets   Jan-28-11 01:55 AM   #23 
        - No, it wouldn't.  beevul   Jan-28-11 02:36 AM   #24 
        - It violates basic statist rules of the road  Katya Mullethov   Jan-28-11 07:34 AM   #32 
        - Only Canada.  one-eyed fat man   Jan-28-11 09:44 AM   #38 
        - Sure. One of the biggest sellers after the last attempt to "ban" mags over 10 rounds  old mark   Jan-28-11 07:15 AM   #28 
        - The law went into effect in 1934....nt  old mark   Jan-28-11 07:12 AM   #27 
        - ...some animals are more equal than others  one-eyed fat man   Jan-28-11 09:13 PM   #49 
  - Good post.  beevul   Jan-28-11 12:27 AM   #16 
  - It would be great to get some answers.  whoneedstickets   Jan-28-11 12:45 AM   #17 
     - The state...  beevul   Jan-28-11 01:17 AM   #20 
     - Mass killing?  one-eyed fat man   Jan-28-11 10:29 AM   #40 
  - Such a law would not have the desired effect.  GreenStormCloud   Jan-28-11 03:22 AM   #25 
  - Ridiculously broad and by far not the least restrictive.  benEzra   Jan-28-11 10:44 AM   #41 
  - I would be happy if there were no gun control  tularetom   Jan-27-11 11:13 PM   #8 
  - You can legally buy 40 AKs on the same day!  Blacksheep214   Jan-28-11 05:05 AM   #26 
  - You don't help make your point...  mvccd1000   Jan-28-11 07:28 AM   #29 
  - For most people , gun ownership is legal...pot ownership is not.  old mark   Jan-28-11 07:33 AM   #31 
  - My Congressman is...  Blacksheep214   Jan-28-11 09:48 AM   #39 
     - My new Senator is Pat Toomey...I feel your pain...The only thing I have against pot  old mark   Jan-28-11 11:19 AM   #42 
  - Your day is already here , somewhere .  Katya Mullethov   Jan-28-11 07:42 AM   #33 
  - Your right to buy a bag of weed has been infringed  slackmaster   Jan-28-11 11:58 AM   #44 
  - Your money  one-eyed fat man   Jan-28-11 02:37 PM   #47 
  - Why use Mexican weed?  Blacksheep214   Jan-29-11 02:19 AM   #51 
     - Chicken or egg  one-eyed fat man   Jan-29-11 07:58 AM   #52 
        - Didn't research it, did ya?  Blacksheep214   Jan-29-11 08:24 AM   #53 
        - Most of the folks smoking dope  one-eyed fat man   Jan-29-11 09:51 AM   #58 
           - "Is there a dope equivalent of a having a glass of wine to complement a meal?"  PavePusher   Jan-29-11 10:11 AM   #60 
           - That is my question  one-eyed fat man   Jan-29-11 11:03 AM   #62 
              - Squelching one's house fly like EEG .  Katya Mullethov   Jan-29-11 05:44 PM   #82 
           - Yes. There actually is.  beevul   Jan-29-11 06:37 PM   #84 
        - As did I.  beevul   Jan-29-11 06:31 PM   #83 
           - I was alway a fan of Gregory Boyington  RSillsbee   Jan-29-11 10:21 PM   #89 
  - All those dudes were DOPERS!  one-eyed fat man   Jan-28-11 10:51 PM   #50 
  - Who are you, Vishnu?  AtheistCrusader   Jan-29-11 02:47 PM   #74 
  - I'm all for an adult discussion  PhillySane   Jan-29-11 08:36 AM   #54 
  - Thoughts...  benEzra   Jan-29-11 09:07 AM   #55 
  - AR-15  PhillySane   Jan-29-11 09:22 AM   #57 
     - The AR-15 is only available in "semi-auto mode".  PavePusher   Jan-29-11 10:02 AM   #59 
     - Yes, definitely. The most popular civilian rifle in the US, and among the least misused of all guns.  benEzra   Jan-29-11 10:28 AM   #61 
        - This is a military weapon, is it not?  PhillySane   Jan-29-11 11:18 AM   #63 
           - I'm really trying to understand your rationale.  shadowrider   Jan-29-11 11:21 AM   #64 
           - Not just military.  jeepnstein   Jan-29-11 11:44 AM   #65 
           - A well regulated militia...  PhillySane   Jan-29-11 12:13 PM   #66 
              - You want a definition of "well-regulated militia"?  shadowrider   Jan-29-11 12:14 PM   #67 
              - Militia...  jeepnstein   Jan-29-11 12:55 PM   #68 
              - It seems to me  PhillySane   Jan-29-11 01:43 PM   #70 
                 - Take "well-regulated" during the TIME it was used. DON'T apply a modern  shadowrider   Jan-29-11 01:50 PM   #71 
                 - That's the way it is.  jeepnstein   Jan-29-11 01:57 PM   #72 
                 - "A well regulated militia"...  beevul   Jan-29-11 07:10 PM   #86 
                 - I still say this is "reading into"  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 08:12 AM   #91 
                    - Ok, lets try this again.  beevul   Jan-30-11 04:23 PM   #108 
                       - So the second amendment protects restriction of what exactly?  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 11:19 PM   #110 
                          - The bill of rights protects rights via a mechanism of restriction on government.  beevul   Jan-30-11 11:54 PM   #112 
                             - The government RESTRICTS all of these weapons.  PhillySane   Jan-31-11 07:20 AM   #115 
                                - No, actually they aren't.  beevul   Jan-31-11 01:53 PM   #119 
                                   - I have no idea how to read your map  PhillySane   Jan-31-11 02:52 PM   #120 
                                      - It's easy. They are, in fact, legal in *most* states- so your assertion is wrong  friendly_iconoclast   Jan-31-11 03:43 PM   #121 
                                      - Let me interpret this  shadowrider   Jan-31-11 03:59 PM   #122 
                                      - Hey dude  PhillySane   Jan-31-11 04:20 PM   #123 
                                      - Quite a few 'exceptions' there..  X_Digger   Jan-31-11 04:57 PM   #124 
                                      - Excuse me  Glassunion   Jan-31-11 05:20 PM   #125 
                                      - Red=illegal, green = legal - the same way a stoplight is read.  beevul   Jan-31-11 10:58 PM   #126 
                 - No convincing is necessary. There is a militia - and YOU might be a member:  friendly_iconoclast   Jan-29-11 10:02 PM   #88 
                    - I would argue that!  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 08:19 AM   #92 
                       - Ok, say that happens. Now explain to me how to keep guns out of the hands  shadowrider   Jan-30-11 08:47 AM   #96 
                       - Actually there is starting to be a trend  RSillsbee   Jan-30-11 03:03 PM   #105 
                          - True that. But they join BEFORE they acquire a serious record at the direction of the gang  shadowrider   Jan-31-11 07:23 AM   #116 
                       - Read the law again. It doesn't have *any* duty requirement, or qualifications...  friendly_iconoclast   Jan-30-11 02:59 PM   #104 
              - Nice dodge..  X_Digger   Jan-29-11 02:48 PM   #75 
              - Dodge?  jeepnstein   Jan-29-11 04:15 PM   #78 
                 - Oh, your response was spot on.. notice I responded to PhillySane..  X_Digger   Jan-29-11 04:18 PM   #79 
                    - This board is confusing.  jeepnstein   Jan-29-11 04:43 PM   #81 
              - Funny how your goalposts are on 4X4 wheels.  cleanhippie   Jan-30-11 08:37 AM   #93 
           - The ability to fire automatically or in bursts when needed  benEzra   Jan-29-11 02:25 PM   #73 
           - I commend you for thoroughness.  PhillySane   Jan-29-11 04:02 PM   #77 
              - "But even if you save one life because of it, its a good thing".- do you apply this to other rights?  X_Digger   Jan-29-11 04:25 PM   #80 
              - You speak of incremental changes  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 07:58 AM   #90 
                 - Actually, when the second amendment was signed, there was a gun with a 20 round magazine.  X_Digger   Jan-30-11 12:05 PM   #97 
                    - Great!  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 12:36 PM   #98 
                       - And are you going to limit the first amendment to quills and hand-crank printing presses as well?  X_Digger   Jan-30-11 12:52 PM   #99 
                          - It's all fun and games until you start restricting other rights n/t  shadowrider   Jan-30-11 12:56 PM   #100 
                          - 18th and 21st  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 02:02 PM   #101 
                             - Feel free to try to alter or remove the second amendment.  X_Digger   Jan-30-11 02:21 PM   #102 
                                - Mother Superior Jumped The Gun  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 02:29 PM   #103 
              - Keep in mind...  beevul   Jan-29-11 07:25 PM   #87 
                 - And the mere fact that we have so many available to us  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 08:44 AM   #95 
                    - To the contrary.  beevul   Jan-30-11 04:02 PM   #107 
                       - How the hell do you know that?  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 11:11 PM   #109 
                          - How the hell do I know what?  beevul   Jan-30-11 11:58 PM   #113 
           - Clyde Barrow's letter to Henry Ford  one-eyed fat man   Jan-29-11 03:29 PM   #76 
           - No its not a military weapon.  beevul   Jan-29-11 07:02 PM   #85 
           - Why do you contradict yourselves all the time?  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 08:40 AM   #94 
              - I think you misunderstand.  beevul   Jan-30-11 03:59 PM   #106 
              - So you still haven't answered the question.  PhillySane   Jan-30-11 11:25 PM   #111 
                 - I already answered it, but I guess you didn't read it.  beevul   Jan-31-11 12:15 AM   #114 
              - If I was determined  one-eyed fat man   Jan-31-11 11:15 AM   #118 
           - Just about anything is "a military weapon" if you trace the ancestry of the design far enough  Euromutt   Jan-31-11 08:45 AM   #117 
  - In this case, YOU determine what a "reasonable response" is  shadowrider   Jan-29-11 09:11 AM   #56 
  - Have some degree of knowledge about firearms technology and terminology  Taitertots   Jan-29-11 01:13 PM   #69 

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