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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
rrneck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-26-10 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. How would
Edited on Tue Oct-26-10 11:58 AM by rrneck
someone prove a lack of knowledge? How would the authorities prove a negative? How would the authorities compel an individual to not give another access to a secured area? Should they vet those with whom we may have a future relationship? Should they monitor the secured area periodically? How long should something go missing before the owner is held responsible for the actions of another?

ETA:

I'm not aware of any law that requires one to keep track of their personal property. Not saying there isn't one, I'm just not aware of it.
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  -Definition of a straw purchaser: rrneck  Oct-26-10 10:46 AM   #0 
  - A lot of gun laws rely on a similar degree of trust  slackmaster   Oct-26-10 10:50 AM   #1 
  - I see that the CIA  rrneck   Oct-26-10 10:54 AM   #2 
  - Fortunately for me, I've never actually sold a firearm in my life  slackmaster   Oct-26-10 10:58 AM   #3 
     - What's funny is  rrneck   Oct-26-10 11:01 AM   #5 
        - Question: would you buy a gun for another person who you knew was  RaleighNCDUer   Oct-26-10 02:09 PM   #29 
           - No.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 02:15 PM   #30 
           - Nevermind your baiting questions - YOU know what a real straw purchase is,  RaleighNCDUer   Oct-26-10 02:20 PM   #31 
              - No, that gets to the heart of the issue in the OP..  X_Digger   Oct-26-10 02:29 PM   #33 
              - Selling to an acquitance - if a background check was required  RamboLiberal   Oct-26-10 05:29 PM   #43 
                 - That takes us to the possibility  rrneck   Oct-26-10 05:43 PM   #45 
                    - Loaned/borrowed/shared = transfered.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 08:26 PM   #51 
                       - Does stolen equal borrowed?  rrneck   Oct-26-10 08:47 PM   #53 
                          - Stolen does not equal borrowed.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 08:53 PM   #55 
                             - Fine. But  rrneck   Oct-26-10 09:08 PM   #57 
                                - How would they know what?  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 09:21 PM   #60 
                                   - Guilt.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 09:23 PM   #62 
                                      - Guilt of what?  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 09:37 PM   #64 
                                         - Theft or failure to secure the firearm.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 09:38 PM   #65 
                                            - Theft or failure to secure the firearm will be obvious.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 09:56 PM   #70 
                                            - From post #53.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 10:29 PM   #75 
                                            - Tersely answered in #55, more verbosely here.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 10:47 PM   #81 
                                            - So,  rrneck   Oct-26-10 10:52 PM   #82 
                                            - Ed's act of robbery is not Joe's responsibility.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 11:06 PM   #84 
                                            - How would Joe's knowledge be proven? nt  rrneck   Oct-26-10 11:12 PM   #86 
                                            - Witnesses, recordings, still holding the map for the getaway.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 11:16 PM   #89 
                                            - True.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 11:28 PM   #91 
                                            - Exactly.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 11:31 PM   #93 
                                            - From what I've seen  rrneck   Oct-27-10 12:41 AM   #99 
                                            - It is hard to report before the discovery.  ManiacJoe   Oct-27-10 12:20 PM   #106 
              - Most of the time  rrneck   Oct-26-10 02:30 PM   #34 
              - I think this is the source of your confusion:  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 08:12 PM   #49 
                 - Indeed.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 08:39 PM   #52 
                    - Some clarifications are needed from you.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 09:15 PM   #59 
                       - All dangerous tools should be secured  rrneck   Oct-26-10 09:22 PM   #61 
                          - If not the owner, then who?  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 09:49 PM   #67 
                             - Who indeed.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 10:03 PM   #71 
                                - The owner does not control information.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 10:26 PM   #74 
                                   - The combination to a gun vault is information which controls access.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 10:33 PM   #77 
                                      - The combination to the safe IS access.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 11:00 PM   #83 
                                         - What right does the government have  rrneck   Oct-26-10 11:09 PM   #85 
                                            - The right granted by the voters.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 11:30 PM   #92 
                                            - ...there is no dictate on "how" for the private sellers...  rrneck   Oct-27-10 12:27 AM   #96 
                                            - Firstly, terminology.  PavePusher   Oct-27-10 10:40 PM   #115 
              - How would you prove the request was made,  rrneck   Oct-26-10 06:19 PM   #48 
           - That depends upon other factors.  GreenStormCloud   Oct-26-10 02:27 PM   #32 
           - Hell no.  AtheistCrusader   Oct-27-10 12:10 PM   #104 
  - Question #1  Xmit   Oct-26-10 10:59 AM   #4 
     - Paper trails are the key to stopping  safeinOhio   Oct-26-10 11:08 AM   # 
     - What if you didn't know it was stolen or lost?  rrneck   Oct-26-10 11:09 AM   #7 
     - Totally beside the point  Katya Mullethov   Oct-26-10 11:37 AM   #9 
     - Unless you can give evidence that there was no way for you to know,  RaleighNCDUer   Oct-26-10 11:43 AM   #11 
     - How would  rrneck   Oct-26-10 11:55 AM   #13 
     - If you are required by law to report a stolen gun, and a gun in your possession  RaleighNCDUer   Oct-26-10 12:05 PM   #14 
        - A lot of "ifs" there.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 12:14 PM   #15 
        - The gun owner's responsibility is not to police his relatives or spouse,  RaleighNCDUer   Oct-26-10 12:44 PM   #16 
        - You see  rrneck   Oct-26-10 01:25 PM   #22 
        - Simple. When that gun is used in a crime, the purchaser faces criminal  RaleighNCDUer   Oct-26-10 02:03 PM   #26 
        - PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY  rrneck   Oct-26-10 02:09 PM   #28 
        - If you are driving your friends car  safeinOhio   Oct-26-10 03:34 PM   #39 
           - Good analogies, but...  Glassunion   Oct-26-10 04:46 PM   #40 
           - What's your point?  rrneck   Oct-26-10 04:47 PM   #41 
              - Yes  safeinOhio   Oct-26-10 09:45 PM   #66 
                 - So if someone is  rrneck   Oct-26-10 10:14 PM   #73 
                    - The woman is not responsible for the actions of her boyfriend.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 10:33 PM   #76 
                       - So how would the cops bust her  rrneck   Oct-26-10 10:44 PM   #80 
                          - They would not "know". They would investigate.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 11:12 PM   #87 
                             - They would actually be investigating  rrneck   Oct-26-10 11:21 PM   #90 
                                - Now you are asking good questions!  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 11:37 PM   #94 
                                - If the state doesn't give her much to work with  rrneck   Oct-27-10 12:32 AM   #97 
        - "There is NO excuse..."  rrneck   Oct-26-10 01:33 PM   #23 
        - When your kid gets drunk  one-eyed fat man   Oct-26-10 02:00 PM   #25 
        - What is there to compel?  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 01:44 PM   #24 
           - Well, yeah.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 02:05 PM   #27 
              - You seem way too eager to give access to a "house gun"  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 08:23 PM   #50 
                 - How would the authorities  rrneck   Oct-26-10 08:50 PM   #54 
                    - The authorities will have evidence indicating a failure on your part.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 09:03 PM   #56 
                       - If access were granted to someone other than the purchaser  rrneck   Oct-26-10 09:14 PM   #58 
                          - Who are these people you want to keep giving guns to?  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 09:36 PM   #63 
                             - I don't necessarily want to give guns to anybody.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 09:53 PM   #69 
                                - In your example, you make the unsafe assumption  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 10:13 PM   #72 
                                   - Who said anyone broke in?  rrneck   Oct-26-10 10:38 PM   #78 
                                      - Life is a series of choices.  ManiacJoe   Oct-26-10 11:50 PM   #95 
                                      - Why do you assume that it is  rrneck   Oct-27-10 12:37 AM   #98 
                                      - I make no such assumptions.  ManiacJoe   Oct-27-10 12:54 PM   #110 
                                      - Nope.  rrneck   Oct-27-10 01:11 PM   #112 
        - Suppose if you will...  Glassunion   Oct-26-10 12:58 PM   #18 
        - How does that work  RSillsbee   Oct-26-10 01:15 PM   #21 
     - The ATF has lost many, including machineguns  one-eyed fat man   Oct-26-10 12:52 PM   #17 
     - I think I have to disagree.  Hangingon   Oct-26-10 01:08 PM   #19 
     - Most gun owners don't have gun safes.  GreenStormCloud   Oct-26-10 02:33 PM   #35 
     - When not on me  PVFR   Oct-26-10 02:48 PM   #36 
        - As well they should be.  rrneck   Oct-26-10 02:56 PM   #37 
     - So much for the "innocent until proven guilty" construct, huh?  cleanhippie   Oct-27-10 05:02 PM   #114 
     - That is what judges and juries are for.  safeinOhio   Oct-26-10 03:25 PM   #38 
        - Please explain how judges and juries can prove a negative. nt  rrneck   Oct-26-10 05:14 PM   #42 
           - Sorry, I don't get your point.  safeinOhio   Oct-26-10 09:50 PM   #68 
              - When the drunk hits someone, everyone will know  rrneck   Oct-26-10 10:41 PM   #79 
                 - Just like when his  safeinOhio   Oct-26-10 11:14 PM   #88 
                    - Children and dogs  rrneck   Oct-27-10 01:02 AM   #100 
                       - Perhaps,  safeinOhio   Oct-27-10 07:48 AM   #101 
                       - Well,  rrneck   Oct-27-10 10:20 AM   #102 
                       - The state does not make such demands.  ManiacJoe   Oct-27-10 12:32 PM   #108 
                          - Hence the term "if".  rrneck   Oct-27-10 12:37 PM   #109 
     - Sold in a private sale  RSillsbee   Oct-26-10 01:13 PM   #20 
     - I think you confuse "stopping" with "punishing".  beevul   Oct-26-10 05:33 PM   #44 
     - That is an excellent, and crucial, observation  Euromutt   Oct-26-10 06:02 PM   #46 
        - The threat of incarceration  rrneck   Oct-26-10 06:12 PM   #47 
           - We have to figure the risk of capture into the equation as well  Euromutt   Oct-28-10 07:31 PM   #116 
     - "Paper trails " Meaning regestration with a goverment office? n/t  oneshooter   Oct-27-10 04:25 PM   #113 
     - And as I recall  rrneck   Oct-26-10 11:08 AM   #6 
  - War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength. nt  Glassunion   Oct-26-10 11:15 AM   #8 
  - Intent is hard to prove, but  DissedByBush   Oct-26-10 11:38 AM   #10 
  - How would they know you sold it?  rrneck   Oct-26-10 11:45 AM   #12 
  - Same thing as my company store purchasing policy.  AtheistCrusader   Oct-27-10 12:09 PM   #103 
     - True.  rrneck   Oct-27-10 12:17 PM   #105 
        - Standard police work.  AtheistCrusader   Oct-27-10 12:31 PM   #107 
           - Yeah. And I'm not saying it's not worth the effort.  rrneck   Oct-27-10 12:57 PM   #111 
 

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