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Reply #140: It's more of a legal safety net [View All]

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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-31-10 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #1
140. It's more of a legal safety net
Most people will retreat when given the chance.

Any self defense class I've been in, including for guns, says avoidance is the best tactic.

This law keeps the authorities from being able to second-guess what happened during an encounter.

The DA wasn't there, he didn't see what happened, he doesn't know your state of mind, but he can ruin your life simply by taking the position that you could have run away safely.

If he's a Brady Bunch supporter, you're pretty much screwed even if you honestly thought you had no chance.

Then you're going to jail if you're poor, but you'll be fine if you're rich enough to afford a good attorney.
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  -Rewritten deadly force bill clears first committee (Alaska) shadowrider  Mar-30-10 06:36 AM   #0 
  - Emblematic of gun lobby nuttery  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 09:41 AM   #1 
  - I think  cowman   Mar-30-10 09:49 AM   #2 
  - If it's "stupid," then the law empowering people to do it must be  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 10:07 AM   #3 
     - Most states have no 'duty to retreat'  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:04 PM   #69 
     - This is as much about protecting  pipoman   Apr-01-10 08:31 PM   #146 
  - mixed feelings  one-eyed fat man   Mar-30-10 10:18 AM   #4 
  - An honest position -- cannot agree ... but still  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 12:57 PM   #27 
     - Self-defense is not "vigilantism".  PavePusher   Mar-30-10 01:18 PM   #34 
     - I was responding to vigilantism  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:54 PM   #45 
        - TX & FL do..  X_Digger   Mar-30-10 03:07 PM   #72 
        - There is another way to read it.  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:07 PM   #73 
        - Precisely.  TPaine7   Mar-30-10 03:26 PM   #83 
        - You have it backwards.  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 03:40 PM   #93 
        - we call it "frequent flyer syndrome"  paulsby   Mar-30-10 05:01 PM   #113 
        - "uncooperative crime victim manages to shoot his/her assailant"  PavePusher   Mar-30-10 10:01 PM   #134 
     - let's suppose YOU  one-eyed fat man   Mar-30-10 02:07 PM   #49 
        - Simple scenarios make for easy calls  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 03:00 PM   #67 
           - Your scenario is all kinds of problematic  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:15 PM   #79 
           - Part of CCW training in Texas is to NOT give the one-finger salute.  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 03:52 PM   #98 
           - We disagree on definition  one-eyed fat man   Mar-30-10 04:38 PM   #107 
           - How does this relate to the OP?  Euromutt   Mar-30-10 05:25 PM   #120 
  - There is no duty to retreat here in California  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 10:24 AM   #5 
  - But it's reasonable that anyone can kill anyone  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 11:24 AM   #6 
     - I've searched online and looked in the paper  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 11:35 AM   #7 
     - And the difference between the two is what?  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 11:47 AM   #9 
        - The truth is that CCW holders rarely do wrong.  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 12:02 PM   #11 
        - Unproven and irrelevant  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:28 PM   #39 
        - If you say you know  cowman   Mar-30-10 01:59 PM   #47 
        - TX & FL track CCW holders and publish the stats.  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 04:08 PM   #100 
        - This story has nothing to do with  safeinOhio   Mar-30-10 10:42 PM   #135 
           - I respectfully disagree  shadowrider   Mar-31-10 05:59 AM   #138 
        - Well, I certainly hope you'll be there when crimes occur, to help everyone decide properly.  PavePusher   Mar-30-10 01:20 PM   #35 
        - Your assumption that everyone who kills is law abiding  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:35 PM   #40 
           - Yes, we do have a problem with the righteous armed citizen being jailed.  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 04:14 PM   #101 
           - um, no  paulsby   Mar-30-10 05:11 PM   #117 
              - A quibble  TPaine7   Mar-30-10 05:55 PM   #123 
                 - i agree and that's a good point  paulsby   Mar-30-10 06:07 PM   #125 
                 - Paulsby answered  pipoman   Apr-01-10 06:24 AM   #142 
        - The difference is a jury of 12 peers.  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:22 PM   #82 
     - Are you forgetting the reasonableness test?  X_Digger   Mar-30-10 11:36 AM   #8 
     - What was wrong with the assumption that it's more reasonable  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 12:05 PM   #13 
     - Many times it is more reasonable to leave a situation than to use deadly force  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 12:07 PM   #15 
     - Deliberately missing the point?  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 12:43 PM   #21 
        - Of course not killing someone is preferable to killing someone  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 12:54 PM   #24 
        - A good round-house kick can kill, as can hands  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 01:00 PM   #28 
        - Do you deliberately misread everything?  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:16 PM   #33 
           - The law was too restrictive and caused too much confusion in determining whether or not force...  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 02:15 PM   #52 
           - A duty to retreat is irrelevant to determining 'reasonableness'  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:38 PM   #92 
           - Castle doctrine is in effect in only a few states?  spin   Mar-30-10 04:45 PM   #109 
              - WTF  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 04:50 PM   #110 
                 - Like concealed carry law, Castle Doctrine has spread fast...  spin   Mar-30-10 05:03 PM   #114 
           - the issue is NOT "is retreat preferable"  paulsby   Mar-30-10 05:25 PM   #121 
        - Only in a couple states.  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:28 PM   #86 
     - Harold Fish n/t  X_Digger   Mar-30-10 03:21 PM   #81 
     - I am a tool-using mammal, and I do not turn my back on threatening predators.  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:27 PM   #84 
     - People who are ignorant of the subject aren't even aware of the reasonableness test  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 12:06 PM   #14 
        - I haven't seen any hysterical anti-gun propaganda  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:55 PM   #46 
           - You really should  cowman   Mar-30-10 02:05 PM   #48 
           - I'd love to address some of these points with a reasonable  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 02:15 PM   #51 
              - Did it occur to you  cowman   Mar-30-10 02:30 PM   #57 
              - So straight majority rule, not intelligence, governs the law?  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 02:41 PM   #59 
                 - I didn't bring  cowman   Mar-30-10 02:44 PM   #61 
                 - Well it  cowman   Mar-30-10 02:51 PM   #63 
                 - Duty to retreat is generally offensive to Americans.  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:48 PM   #96 
                 - Florida always had it  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 05:04 PM   #115 
                    - Best way to fix any issues you might see around 'echo chambes' is to engage in disucussion  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 05:17 PM   #118 
                    - Whether the Gungeon is a lunatic fringe...  spin   Mar-30-10 06:16 PM   #126 
                 - You ask this:  PavePusher   Mar-31-10 02:24 AM   #137 
              - I think you'll find that  cowman   Mar-30-10 02:56 PM   #66 
           - You're a lawyer?  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 04:21 PM   #102 
              - Many kinds of lawyers  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 04:53 PM   #111 
                 - True, However...  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 05:07 PM   #116 
     - No state allows anyone to kill someone simply for feeling any particular way  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 12:03 PM   #12 
     - So the "Stand Your Ground" law  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 12:19 PM   #17 
        - Read up on the subject before commenting on it  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 12:24 PM   #18 
        - Alaska's the topic  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 12:36 PM   #20 
           - I haven't seen the bill yet  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 12:56 PM   #26 
        - The Florida "stand your ground" law explained ...  spin   Mar-30-10 01:01 PM   #29 
        - Thanks  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:11 PM   #31 
           - Meanwhile, the paranoia-driven anti-choice lobby whines about a problem that doesn't exist  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 01:13 PM   #32 
           - Isn't the burden on the one changing the law?  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:21 PM   #36 
              - Useless laws are inherently bad and should be repealed  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 02:17 PM   #53 
                 - So what, specifically is inherently bad  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 02:26 PM   #56 
                    - A good citizen WILL retreat rather than kill, when it is safe to do so  slackmaster   Mar-30-10 02:54 PM   #65 
                    - It places the burden of proof on the victim  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:45 PM   #94 
                    - Not only that, it requires the defendant to prove a negative  Euromutt   Apr-01-10 02:20 AM   #141 
                    - Who decides whether or not it is safe to retreat?  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 04:39 PM   #108 
           - The reasons behind the "stand your ground' law ...  spin   Mar-30-10 04:24 PM   #103 
        - Standing your ground need not result in death of any party involved.  AtheistCrusader   Mar-30-10 03:32 PM   #88 
        - Here is why such laws are needed.  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 04:34 PM   #106 
           - Exactly, and it happened in Florida ...  spin   Mar-30-10 07:02 PM   #129 
     - Simply because one "perceives a threat" does not mean a genuine threat existed .  OneTenthofOnePercent   Mar-30-10 12:10 PM   #16 
     - "Reasonable"  TPaine7   Mar-30-10 01:22 PM   #37 
        - Life isn't Citizens vs. Thugs  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:44 PM   #42 
           - Consult a dictionary and look up vigilante. Most of the time people use it incorrectly.  TPaine7   Mar-30-10 02:52 PM   #64 
           - Look it up yourself and drop the condescending attitude  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 03:15 PM   #78 
              - I already know that shooting someone who is trying to kill or grievously harm you isn't vigilantism  TPaine7   Mar-30-10 03:34 PM   #90 
              - But you don't know how to argue without mischaracterizing  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 03:50 PM   #97 
                 - A taste of civil argumentation, avoidance of mischaracterizing and the like, courtesy of DirkGently:  TPaine7   Mar-30-10 04:32 PM   #105 
                 - That post, along with post 78, is a microcosm of the source of your problems on this thread  TPaine7   Mar-30-10 09:36 PM   #133 
              - "As pointed out repeatedly, 'Stand Your Ground' laws aren't limited to firearms."  TPaine7   Mar-30-10 03:56 PM   #99 
           - "The thug that shoots someone in a bar parking lot can likewise argue he was 'standing his ground.'"  OneTenthofOnePercent   Mar-30-10 03:08 PM   #75 
              - Erm, speaking of "ignorant"  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 03:27 PM   #85 
                 - When you say "bad guy", are you talking about a criminal (or somebody engaged in criminal action)?  OneTenthofOnePercent   Mar-30-10 04:31 PM   #104 
                 - Even under "stand your ground," you need to demonstrate Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy  Euromutt   Apr-01-10 06:06 PM   #145 
  - Yes, the gun-control advocates are making some of that up.  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 11:56 AM   #10 
  - What overzealous prosecutors?  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 12:30 PM   #19 
     - Not true  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 12:45 PM   #22 
        - I've researched NV  cowman   Mar-30-10 12:51 PM   #23 
        - You are forgiven  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 12:56 PM   #25 
        - Right after your links on good guy gunnies in prison  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:06 PM   #30 
           - Harold Fish, Arizona.  PavePusher   Mar-30-10 01:26 PM   #38 
           - Ersland inspires "Make my Day" expansion  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:47 PM   #43 
           - Uh uh  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 01:36 PM   #41 
              - Nice try. My claim is that the law was fine as is  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 01:50 PM   #44 
                 - Radical gun lobby  cowman   Mar-30-10 02:10 PM   #50 
                 - Oh ad hominem how we love thee  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 02:18 PM   #54 
                 - You said  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 02:23 PM   #55 
                 - I said these laws favor easier killing  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 02:32 PM   #58 
                    - So if I don't have a gun and have a direct imminent threat to my personal safety  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 02:42 PM   #60 
                       - I read your sarcasm, but not the point  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 02:50 PM   #62 
                          - So what if the gun lobby is behind it  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 03:05 PM   #70 
                             - But I thought we could rely on "reasonably"  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 03:07 PM   #74 
                                - Ok, let's assume you win and this scenario happens  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 03:21 PM   #80 
                 - You *could* demonstrate any problems that Florida's "stand your ground" law has caused  friendly_iconoclast   Mar-30-10 03:01 PM   #68 
                    - The Orlando Sentinel  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 03:06 PM   #71 
                    - I don't see this printed in any law  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 03:10 PM   #77 
                    - Typo  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 03:31 PM   #87 
                    - "...credibilty is not my burden". You're certainly carrying a light load at the moment.  friendly_iconoclast   Mar-30-10 03:35 PM   #91 
                    - Since when is principle not a basis for argument?  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 03:46 PM   #95 
                       - The "gun lobby" haven't passed these laws, state legislatures have.  friendly_iconoclast   Mar-30-10 05:24 PM   #119 
                    - There's that recurring straw man  slackmaster   Mar-31-10 11:24 AM   #139 
                    - He/She isn't interested in proving their point  shadowrider   Mar-30-10 03:08 PM   #76 
                       - Riiiight  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 03:33 PM   #89 
                          - CCW holders are complety relevant to the argument.  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 05:00 PM   #112 
                          - It's not irrational when WE do it  DirkGently   Mar-30-10 06:17 PM   #127 
                             - Hyperbolic silliness..  X_Digger   Mar-30-10 06:35 PM   #128 
                             - The real problem causing "internet" CCW permits  TPaine7   Mar-30-10 07:23 PM   #130 
                             - Wharrgarbl aside, carry permit holders *are* more law abiding than the average citizen.  friendly_iconoclast   Mar-30-10 07:26 PM   #131 
                             - Do you at least acknowledge the illogic  DirkGently   Apr-01-10 01:37 PM   #143 
                                - A few points in reply  friendly_iconoclast   Apr-01-10 05:22 PM   #144 
                             - Rebuttal  GreenStormCloud   Mar-30-10 09:26 PM   #132 
                          - I seem to have missed where it was said "CCW holders don't commit crimes"  friendly_iconoclast   Mar-30-10 05:39 PM   #122 
                          - But your the one  cowman   Mar-30-10 06:04 PM   #124 
  - It's more of a legal safety net  DissedByBush   Mar-31-10 08:49 PM   #140 
  - This should have been sponsored by a Democrat  DissedByBush   Mar-30-10 11:59 PM   #136 
 

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