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Reply #98: Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal... [View All]

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Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-17-09 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #83
98. Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal...
You chose to make a statement about me.

Your statement is false.

It IS NOT what I said.


But it is exactly what you implied. Now you want to play the old "I said X but meant Y" game so that you can play the misunderstood victim once again.

We haven't forgotten you, Iverglas.

On those BARE FACTS, and on those SPECIFIC CRITERIA ALONE, I preferred one scenario over the other.

Then I think you are a fool, Iverglas. The two scenarios are nearly identical except for one important fact - in one scenario the victim was armed, and escaped physically unscathed, in in the other, the one you prefer, the victim was beaten and raped.

Your statement is false, because I HAVE NEVER SAID that I would prefer to see a woman raped than defend herself.

But clearly you have said you prefer the scenario where that is exactly what happened.

The overwhelming majority of sexual assaults do not involve any actual risk of death. Even if we consider only REPORTED assaults, the overwhelming majority are committed by people known to the victim.

Those offenders are NOT going to kill their victims.


First of all, who cares? Just breaking into my house and forcing me to retreat behind other locked doors in my house until they finally break through those is sufficient cause for me to shoot them, regardless of what their ultimate intent for me is.

I do not regard killing someone in apprehension of anything less than serious physical injury or death, or when an alternative to doing so is available, to be tolerable in a civilized society. And in civilized societies, it is not tolerated.

If you think that either of the women in either of the scenarios were not in imminent danger of serious physical injury or death, then you are almost certainly in a minority of such opinion holders.

I can't imagine anyone listening to those tapes and not coming to the conclusion that those women were in for serious physical injury or death. The only difference between them is one woman was able to resist her attacker and the other was not.

Second of all, I'm sure every victim of a rape where the perpetrator tells them they are going to kill them will feel much better knowing that they are only going to be beaten and raped.

And those victims are NOT going to use "lethal force" to defend themselves against the assault. Period.

Then I suggest you re-listen to the first recording, where what you claim is not going to happen period did happen.

Sexual assault is not punishable by death. I see absolutely no reason why killing to defend against a sexual assault -- where there are no reasonable grounds to apprehend serious physical injury or death -- should be tolerated.

Well thank dog you don't make the laws around here.

Encouraging women to kill men attempting to assault them sexually does nothing to address the many serious problems women have in such societies.

And discouraging them from defending themselves from sexual assault does nothing but leave them to scream over the phone to helpless 911 dispatchers.

All women have to do is pack heat, and pull trigger, and that whole rape thing will just go away. Women don't want to do that? Well damn, whose fault is it when they are abused and assaulted then, eh?

Let's be perfectly clear here. I do not blame the woman in the second recording for being beaten and raped - it is a travesty and a tragedy. But I do see that she clearly had plenty of time to fetch a firearm and take up a defensive position aiming at the basement door - if she had a firearm. I feel the same kind of remorse for these kinds of situations as I do when I hear about someone who died in a car accident and did not wear a seat belt. "If only, if only", and "This will never happen to me."
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  -NPR (Michigan): More Women Getting Gun Training TPaine7  Jun-15-09 07:14 PM   #0 
  - huh  iverglas   Jun-15-09 07:50 PM   #1 
  - LOL  TPaine7   Jun-15-09 07:59 PM   #3 
  - Welcome back  krispos42   Jun-19-09 02:38 AM   #161 
  - just a reg'lar woman  iverglas   Jun-15-09 07:52 PM   #2 
  - As a specific example of the aforementioned clueless little old women  TPaine7   Jun-15-09 08:05 PM   #4 
  - the term you're forgetting  iverglas   Jun-15-09 08:14 PM   #5 
     - Touch  TPaine7   Jun-15-09 08:19 PM   #6 
     - Back tirelessly defending the right of other women to agree with you, I see  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-15-09 10:07 PM   #10 
        - and still misrepresenting reality  iverglas   Jun-15-09 10:10 PM   #11 
        - "We all understand that nobody's feeling makes anything so, right?"  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-15-09 10:41 PM   #12 
           - forgot to mention ...  iverglas   Jun-17-09 01:48 PM   #114 
        - Now that is funny.  Fire_Medic_Dave   Jun-16-09 11:44 PM   #86 
  - To be fair, you said some things that I failed to acknowledge  TPaine7   Jun-15-09 08:36 PM   #7 
  - allow me to make an assumption  iverglas   Jun-15-09 09:04 PM   #8 
     - ????  TPaine7   Jun-15-09 09:39 PM   #9 
  - I hope sombody straightens her out  rl6214   Jun-16-09 10:30 AM   #15 
     - I think we may be seeing semantic development in action  Euromutt   Jun-16-09 04:13 PM   #34 
        - Interesting point..  X_Digger   Jun-16-09 05:26 PM   #44 
  - It's my understanding that women have better  rrneck   Jun-16-09 08:49 AM   #13 
  - women also tend to be more attentive learners of course there are exceptions to the rule.  Statistical   Jun-16-09 09:01 AM   #14 
  - Better ability to focus and concentrate?  DonP   Jun-16-09 11:37 AM   #16 
  - I've had the same experience  Euromutt   Jun-16-09 12:08 PM   #17 
  - Women don't think they already know it all.  Tim01   Jun-16-09 12:21 PM   #18 
  - I seem to have got rusty  iverglas   Jun-16-09 12:25 PM   #19 
     - Perhaps  Merchant Marine   Jun-16-09 01:13 PM   #23 
     - mmmmmmmmm ... no  iverglas   Jun-16-09 02:40 PM   #25 
        - Pardon me,  Merchant Marine   Jun-16-09 03:08 PM   #28 
           - well ....  iverglas   Jun-16-09 03:18 PM   #29 
              - That wouldn't be "political" demographics, though, would it?  benEzra   Jun-16-09 04:30 PM   #37 
              - uh huh  iverglas   Jun-16-09 04:59 PM   #38 
              - Yep.  rrneck   Jun-17-09 02:07 AM   #87 
              - Implying the Author of Post #13 is a Racist, Eh?  DrCory   Jun-17-09 07:23 AM   #91 
                 - oh, I know just how you feel!  iverglas   Jun-17-09 08:46 AM   #93 
     - That's what you get for being gone so long. Welcome back! n/t  NewMoonTherian   Jun-16-09 02:11 PM   #24 
  - 911 Woman shoots intruder. / Woman not armed  Tim01   Jun-16-09 12:34 PM   #20 
  - A rabbit's foot is just as effective, doncha know?  TPaine7   Jun-16-09 12:39 PM   #21 
  - And of course dead victims are morally superior to women who shoot rapist/murderers.  Tim01   Jun-16-09 12:43 PM   #22 
  - yeah, I know  iverglas   Jun-16-09 02:41 PM   #26 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Jun-16-09 03:59 PM   #33 
     - I think you'd better watch that mouth  iverglas   Jun-16-09 05:01 PM   #39 
        - Then you are in favor of women being armed with guns. Good.  Tim01   Jun-16-09 05:22 PM   #43 
        - "All Americans should support the 2nd amendment."  iverglas   Jun-16-09 05:45 PM   #46 
           - I don't follow your sidetracks. I have American reality to look at. 2 taped examples.  Tim01   Jun-16-09 07:10 PM   #64 
              - ah, the simple man  iverglas   Jun-16-09 07:54 PM   #66 
        - Why don't you take your own advice to heart?  Euromutt   Jun-16-09 06:09 PM   #49 
        - so, sweetie  iverglas   Jun-16-09 06:11 PM   #50 
           - Maybe he should look at  TPaine7   Jun-16-09 06:19 PM   #56 
           - That's going to be a tall order...  Euromutt   Jun-16-09 08:02 PM   #68 
           - May I visit your planet please?  iverglas   Jun-16-09 08:23 PM   #72 
           - Once again, if you make the assertions, you assume the burden of proof  Euromutt   Jun-16-09 09:42 PM   #80 
              - could you please try to keep up  iverglas   Jun-16-09 10:11 PM   #83 
              - "Civilized"  TPaine7   Jun-17-09 02:58 AM   #89 
              - Backpedal, backpedal, backpedal...  gorfle   Jun-17-09 10:13 AM   #98 
              - show your work, please  iverglas   Jun-17-09 11:09 AM   #102 
                 - Aids, hepatitis, and drug reisistant STDs  TPaine7   Jun-17-09 11:30 AM   #103 
                 - As requested.  gorfle   Jun-18-09 09:01 AM   #139 
              - I'm trying to get this clear, really I am  Euromutt   Jun-17-09 10:08 PM   #136 
                 - naaaaaah  iverglas   Jun-18-09 06:11 PM   #144 
                    - Ah, more abuse  Euromutt   Jun-18-09 07:07 PM   #150 
                       - nah, sorry  iverglas   Jun-18-09 07:17 PM   #154 
                          - Oh my, a reversal to the normal state of affairs!  Euromutt   Jun-18-09 07:51 PM   #157 
                             - hmm  iverglas   Jun-18-09 07:55 PM   #158 
              - yeah, but I didn't make 'em; too bad, so sad  iverglas   Jun-17-09 09:28 AM   #94 
                 - You changed your tune (short-term at least)  Euromutt   Jun-18-09 06:03 PM   #143 
           - A sophist may clearly state that  TPaine7   Jun-16-09 08:48 PM   #74 
           - Oh man, another bookmark worthy post!  gorfle   Jun-17-09 09:54 AM   #97 
              - ah, if only it were accurate, eh?  iverglas   Jun-17-09 10:16 AM   #99 
                 - I've got a proposal for you...  Euromutt   Jun-18-09 07:11 PM   #151 
                    - oh dear  iverglas   Jun-18-09 07:15 PM   #153 
                       - My blood pressure's fine, thank you  Euromutt   Jun-18-09 07:42 PM   #156 
           - I would but...  gorfle   Jun-17-09 09:52 AM   #96 
        - You tender, sensitive, principled, saintly soul  TPaine7   Jun-16-09 06:13 PM   #51 
           - and then, of course, there's what we call "the whole truth"  iverglas   Jun-16-09 06:17 PM   #55 
              - "The Whole Truth"  TPaine7   Jun-16-09 06:25 PM   #58 
     - It's a pertinent example.  gorfle   Jun-16-09 05:19 PM   #42 
     - huh  iverglas   Jun-16-09 05:47 PM   #47 
        - Wow.  Statistical   Jun-16-09 06:16 PM   #53 
        - It makes you wonder who's the real mysogynist, doesn't it? N/T  TPaine7   Jun-16-09 06:33 PM   #60 
        - well, me, I'm wondering  iverglas   Jun-16-09 08:25 PM   #73 
        - I would have preferred the scenario where the perp screamed like a Jonas Brothers fan...  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-16-09 09:58 PM   #82 
        - I'd guess that Tim01 was at least partially right.  Euromutt   Jun-16-09 06:16 PM   #54 
        - and now for all the new members of my fan club  iverglas   Jun-16-09 06:21 PM   #57 
        - I hear Letterman is looking for new material  Tejas   Jun-16-09 06:36 PM   #61 
        - Ok just to be clear you would pick the scenario where "nobody dies" no matter what the cost?  Statistical   Jun-16-09 06:37 PM   #62 
        - This is unquestionably in iverglas' philosophical neighborhood:  TPaine7   Jun-16-09 07:21 PM   #65 
           - aren't you supposedly the wrong sex  iverglas   Jun-16-09 07:56 PM   #67 
              - Good one!  TPaine7   Jun-16-09 08:03 PM   #69 
              - Hah! Read one of Elmore Leonard's novels. Guys gossip too.  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-16-09 09:30 PM   #77 
        - *scratching head...*  burrfoot   Jun-17-09 10:34 AM   #100 
           - a brand new fan club member!!!  iverglas   Jun-17-09 11:47 AM   #104 
              - Now that's interesting.  Deadric Damodred   Jun-17-09 12:04 PM   #108 
              - snork  iverglas   Jun-17-09 12:11 PM   #109 
                 - Then I suggest those people hang around a different crowd...  Deadric Damodred   Jun-17-09 12:14 PM   #110 
                    - Ah. True.  iverglas   Jun-17-09 12:20 PM   #111 
              - So...  burrfoot   Jun-17-09 12:35 PM   #112 
                 - well, that wasn't *quite* a proposal  iverglas   Jun-17-09 01:07 PM   #113 
                    - I'm continually impressed...  burrfoot   Jun-17-09 03:21 PM   #115 
                       - "lethal force"  iverglas   Jun-17-09 03:58 PM   #116 
                          - Thank you!  burrfoot   Jun-17-09 05:23 PM   #119 
                             - well, I don't know what you disagree about  iverglas   Jun-17-09 05:56 PM   #121 
                                - It's ok, you're forgiven.  burrfoot   Jun-17-09 06:25 PM   #126 
                                - What?  Deadric Damodred   Jun-17-09 06:39 PM   #127 
                                   - oh, sigh  iverglas   Jun-17-09 06:49 PM   #128 
                                      - Well then why don't you explain what...  Deadric Damodred   Jun-17-09 07:00 PM   #129 
                                         - Tell ya what  iverglas   Jun-17-09 07:06 PM   #131 
                                            - Na.  Deadric Damodred   Jun-17-09 07:09 PM   #132 
        - I prefer the badguy is dead and the innocent woman is not raped. You agree?  Tim01   Jun-16-09 09:32 PM   #78 
        - Are you implying that I agree?  iverglas   Jun-16-09 09:36 PM   #79 
           - So you prefer the woman gets raped and the badguy doesn't get hurt.  Tim01   Jun-16-09 09:52 PM   #81 
              - wtf?  iverglas   Jun-16-09 10:16 PM   #85 
                 - You still refuse to just answer the question about your opinion.  Tim01   Jun-17-09 08:05 AM   #92 
        - Wow.  gorfle   Jun-17-09 09:37 AM   #95 
           - so let's parse it  iverglas   Jun-17-09 11:58 AM   #106 
              - So parse = change the subject and misrepresent?  TPaine7   Jun-18-09 09:51 AM   #141 
                 - Excellent  iverglas   Jun-18-09 06:12 PM   #145 
     - gunowners fancy stories of rape?  Tejas   Jun-16-09 06:30 PM   #59 
        - Who said that?????  iverglas   Jun-16-09 06:41 PM   #63 
           - You did. Post 26.  Tim01   Jun-16-09 08:07 PM   #70 
           - the full content of post 26:  iverglas   Jun-16-09 08:16 PM   #71 
              - Remedial English, anyone?  TPaine7   Jun-16-09 09:06 PM   #75 
              - Aw, jeez. More word games. This is just entertainment for you isn't it.  Tim01   Jun-16-09 10:15 PM   #84 
           - still waiting for the author's answer  iverglas   Jun-16-09 09:14 PM   #76 
              - Quit feigning innocence,  Tejas   Jun-17-09 05:43 AM   #90 
  - women wouldn't feel they needed guns....  Scout   Jun-16-09 02:49 PM   #27 
     - Oh, I get it...  DonP   Jun-16-09 03:24 PM   #30 
     - 75% of rapes and 60% of robberies involve no firearm.  Statistical   Jun-16-09 03:43 PM   #31 
     - More like 97% and 73%, respectively  Euromutt   Jun-16-09 04:19 PM   #35 
     - Thanks. n/t  Statistical   Jun-16-09 04:29 PM   #36 
     - This info should have it's own thread.  Tim01   Jun-17-09 10:12 PM   #137 
        - oh, by all means!  iverglas   Jun-18-09 06:15 PM   #146 
           - Wow. No need to to get so emotional. Chill out. nt  Tim01   Jun-18-09 06:59 PM   #149 
              - uh, "emotional"?  iverglas   Jun-18-09 07:14 PM   #152 
                 - You don't, actually.  Euromutt   Jun-18-09 11:57 PM   #160 
     - would those be the ones committed by fathers, friends, intimate partners ...?  iverglas   Jun-16-09 05:03 PM   #40 
     - You are very uneducated aobut this.  Tim01   Jun-16-09 03:53 PM   #32 
     - being patronized by the deceitful and/or dim is always such fun, eh?  iverglas   Jun-16-09 05:04 PM   #41 
     - Do you support a woman's right to choose?  Merchant Marine   Jun-16-09 05:37 PM   #45 
     - Not if it involves guns  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-17-09 02:30 AM   #88 
     - Insults and no point. Care to get on topic?  Tim01   Jun-16-09 05:56 PM   #48 
        - ain't that just rich?  iverglas   Jun-16-09 06:14 PM   #52 
     - an average woman is extremely unlikely to be attacked by a "big guy"  Scout   Jun-17-09 11:54 AM   #105 
        - uh oh, watch out  iverglas   Jun-17-09 12:03 PM   #107 
        - Sorry about your previous abusive relationship  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-17-09 04:13 PM   #117 
        - it's really very simple  iverglas   Jun-17-09 04:48 PM   #118 
        - It is simple  TPaine7   Jun-17-09 05:34 PM   #120 
        - I see you still need a dictionary  iverglas   Jun-17-09 06:03 PM   #122 
        - The rest is boring wordplay and silliness,  TPaine7   Jun-17-09 06:21 PM   #124 
        - but, but, but....  Scout   Jun-17-09 06:18 PM   #123 
        - It's not up to you, me, or anyone else to decide for a woman what her needs are  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-17-09 07:02 PM   #130 
           - you too, eh?  iverglas   Jun-17-09 07:23 PM   #134 
              - Actually, I was trying to stick closer to the subject of the OP  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-17-09 08:16 PM   #135 
        - yeah, i'm sure you're real sorry  Scout   Jun-17-09 06:23 PM   #125 
           - Again, what does your abusive ex-partner have to do with the women in the OP?  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-17-09 07:17 PM   #133 
              - happy to spell it out  iverglas   Jun-18-09 06:52 PM   #148 
              - I see. You're threadjacking for a good cause  friendly_iconoclast   Jun-18-09 10:32 PM   #159 
                 - short and sweet  iverglas   Jun-19-09 12:30 PM   #162 
                 - an invitation!  iverglas   Jun-19-09 12:31 PM   #163 
              - geee, a story about WOMEN in MICHIGAN getting gun training....  Scout   Jun-19-09 12:55 PM   #164 
        - We are not trying to protect you. You protect yourself or not.  Tim01   Jun-17-09 10:29 PM   #138 
        - "Don't like guns? Don't get one"  Scout   Jun-18-09 04:29 PM   #142 
           - There is no need for insults. Did you have a point? nt  Tim01   Jun-18-09 06:16 PM   #147 
              - what insult would that be?  Scout   Jun-18-09 07:36 PM   #155 
        - This isn't about protecting "little women".  gorfle   Jun-18-09 09:06 AM   #140 
     - Interestingly...  gorfle   Jun-17-09 10:52 AM   #101 
 

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