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Reply #25: Tough question, actually... [View All]

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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Mar-25-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #17
25. Tough question, actually...
Edited on Sat Mar-25-06 09:51 PM by benEzra
I don't care for John Lott; not just the whole Mary Rosh thing, but his political associations. His raw data has for the most part held up to critique, but he has been careless at times (the lost hard drive story reminded me of Micheal Bellesiles) and I personally wouldn't rely on him.

Gary Kleck seems more solid to me, and in fact he started his research as a convinced gun-ban advocate and says he came to his conclusions only reluctantly. I think he is a lot more respected by his anti-gun peers than Lott is. Of course, if Kleck's research didn't support my own views, I wonder if I'd feel as positively about him; it's human nature to view researchers who tell us what we want to hear as "good researchers," and that's true whether the researcher in question is Gary Kleck or Arthur "43 times" Kellerman. FWIW, Kleck is still what I would consider moderately anti-gun in his personal views, but I don't know that that lends him any additional credibility when he comes to pro-gun conclusions.

I honestly don't know of too many well-known researchers in the field, pro or con, whose work would be considered objective. I will say that I personally think peer review on gun issues is MUCH more rigorous in the criminological journals than in most medical journals (that boneheaded J. Trauma blunder on rifle wounds comes to mind, how that slipped past peer review we'll never know), but when's the last time you heard a press release about a study in a criminological journal? They are just not high profile.

Sadly, the way research is structured today, if you want grant money--not just on the gun issue, but on most anything outside the hard sciences--the way to get it seems to be to push an agenda and try to get your idealogy funded by some interest group, corporation, NGO, or government agency who agrees with your preconceptions. On the gun issue, NSSA/SAAMI/NRA/whatever is certainly going to only fund pro-gun researchers (if they fund research at all, probably not), and the medical establishment funds almost exclusively anti-gun researchers, as far as I can determine. So the disinterested observer, if any even exist, is probably someone you've never heard of, who is a criminologist rather than an epidemiologist by training.
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  -Don't care for 'shall-issue' concealed carry laws? The KKK wants you! Dolomite  Mar-24-06 05:00 PM   #0 
  - Isn't it interesting that many of these laws were  MadMaddie   Mar-24-06 05:02 PM   #1 
  - That's the best you can come up with?  BlackHeart   Mar-24-06 05:17 PM   #2 
  - Those who can't  Burning Water   Mar-24-06 06:09 PM   #4 
  - How about 2004?  DonP   Mar-24-06 06:56 PM   #5 
  - Today's gun laws  BlackHeart   Mar-24-06 08:04 PM   #6 
     - except that the rich and powerful have security details while the  aikoaiko   Mar-24-06 09:03 PM   #7 
     - NO they don't...  virginia mountainman   Mar-24-06 09:12 PM   #8 
     - Not even close to true.  LaMarque   Mar-25-06 06:31 AM   #10 
     - Do you have any stats  BlackHeart   Mar-25-06 08:02 AM   #12 
        - LOL  virginia mountainman   Mar-25-06 10:16 AM   #13 
        - We would have to provide you will "stats"...  LaMarque   Mar-25-06 07:28 PM   #20 
        - Oh my fucking god  hydrashok75   Mar-28-06 08:23 PM   #54 
     - Since you are into asking for proof  Township75   Mar-25-06 03:01 PM   #15 
        - For starters  BlackHeart   Mar-25-06 03:39 PM   #16 
           - That doesn't mean...  Township75   Mar-25-06 07:56 PM   #21 
           - Oh boy.  LaMarque   Mar-25-06 09:40 PM   #24 
           - There don't have to be  hydrashok75   Mar-28-06 08:24 PM   #55 
              - Do maryland counties control the CCW?  dcfirefighter   Apr-04-06 10:03 PM   #58 
                 - Nope  hydrashok75   Apr-05-06 08:15 AM   #59 
                    - Ah ha that is screwed up  dcfirefighter   Apr-05-06 08:23 AM   #60 
                       - That's generally true  hydrashok75   Apr-05-06 09:52 AM   #61 
                          - I wonder if the recent home invasions will have any change  dcfirefighter   Apr-05-06 10:37 AM   #62 
  - 1968 GCA in response to the armed Black Panther movement.  enfield collector   Mar-31-06 08:45 AM   #57 
  - Tyrants and wanna-be's  Burning Water   Mar-24-06 06:08 PM   #3 
  - those with guns  DaveinMD   Mar-24-06 10:12 PM   #9 
  - Kellermann and Reay, New Engl J Med 1986 (314:1557-60)  benEzra   Mar-25-06 07:22 AM   #11 
  - Excellent post. n/t  jody   Mar-25-06 11:07 AM   #14 
  - So, Ben who should we look to for unbiased research, either direction?  Wickerman   Mar-25-06 05:12 PM   #17 
  - Tough question, actually...  benEzra   Mar-25-06 09:51 PM   #25 
     - well said  Wickerman   Mar-25-06 11:44 PM   #26 
  - This dead homeowner who used his gun might disagree with you  brentspeak   Mar-25-06 05:33 PM   #19 
     - Quite the statistical abberation, actually...  benEzra   Mar-25-06 08:39 PM   #22 
  - Not true  hydrashok75   Mar-28-06 08:26 PM   #56 
  - That's a pretty lame strawman to prop up  brentspeak   Mar-25-06 05:23 PM   #18 
     - So NJ attempts to hassle all would-be gun owners equally badly...  benEzra   Mar-25-06 09:24 PM   #23 
        - You said "gun" when you already know it applies only to handguns  brentspeak   Mar-26-06 10:50 AM   #27 
           - NJ gun laws corrections.  progressive_dude   Mar-26-06 11:34 AM   #28 
           - So you got fingerprinted...  brentspeak   Mar-26-06 02:33 PM   #30 
              - Here is a case of ABUSE at the hands of New Jersey  virginia mountainman   Mar-26-06 02:58 PM   #31 
              - Do you know how many crimes..  virginia mountainman   Mar-26-06 03:00 PM   #32 
              - Please list the number of crimes stopped by so called....  LaMarque   Mar-26-06 03:17 PM   #34 
              - Zero?  brentspeak   Mar-26-06 03:33 PM   #35 
                 - Ahhhhh  virginia mountainman   Mar-26-06 03:41 PM   #37 
                    - Yeah, I understand what you're saying  brentspeak   Mar-26-06 04:02 PM   #38 
                       - Hmm  virginia mountainman   Mar-26-06 04:16 PM   #39 
                          - I admit that I'm not passionate about new gun ballistic fingerprinting  brentspeak   Mar-26-06 06:12 PM   #40 
                          - There's middle ground to be found on the private sale issue...  benEzra   Mar-27-06 08:17 AM   #45 
                             - Some kind of low-cost arrangement with state police  brentspeak   Mar-27-06 06:01 PM   #48 
                                - I have a question for you.  LaMarque   Mar-27-06 07:33 PM   #49 
                                   - Yes...you have the firearm shipped to a licensed gun dealer in your state  benEzra   Mar-27-06 09:00 PM   #50 
                                   - After I posted my reponse to your's  brentspeak   Mar-28-06 02:26 PM   #52 
                                   - In answer to your query  brentspeak   Mar-28-06 02:14 PM   #51 
                          - Looks like I wrong about NJ and ballistic fingerprinting laws  brentspeak   Mar-26-06 11:35 PM   #43 
              - NJ Democrats compared to Nazis??  progressive_dude   Mar-26-06 06:30 PM   #41 
                 - Maybe I should have added the 'sarcasm' smiley  brentspeak   Mar-26-06 10:12 PM   #42 
                    - New Jersey is a cool place, but...  progressive_dude   Mar-28-06 04:10 PM   #53 
           - No, NJ has some of the most ridiculous long-gun laws in the nation  benEzra   Mar-26-06 02:18 PM   #29 
           - Do you base any of your assertions on fact?  LaMarque   Mar-26-06 03:12 PM   #33 
           - "Weak", as in ineffectual without local law enforcement involvement  brentspeak   Mar-26-06 03:41 PM   #36 
              - What does the current law not do that it used to do?  benEzra   Mar-27-06 07:07 AM   #44 
           - not quite right  Romulus   Mar-27-06 03:38 PM   #46 
              - MD isn't bad? Compared to what......the UK?  LaMarque   Mar-27-06 05:16 PM   #47 
 

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