NNadir
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Mon Mar-15-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #30 |
| 31. I hate to disagree, but Chernobyl is rarely discussed so dispassionately. |
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I've been dealing with Chernobyl mythology for years, ever since I switched sides in the nuclear power debate.
There are certain mantras chanted by anti-nuclear power folks and the content of these chants are words like these: "Chernobyl! Chernobyl! Waste! Waste! Waste! Radiation! Radiation! Radiation! Bomb! Bomb! Bomb!" If you attempt to bring these mystic words out of the darkness and into the light of serious examination, well it's much like trying to persuade a fundementalist that it just is possible that Jesus was just an ordinary Jewish guy in Roman occupied Judea.
My own trek from anti-nuclear power activist to nuclear power promoter began, strangely enough, with Chernobyl. I, like most people on the planet, thought it prove to the worst environmental disaster ever to have happened. Seeking more information on some of the contaminating isotopes, I looked them up in the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics and came upon the values for neutron capture cross sections, the variable most closely connected with nuclear transmutation. When I explored this conception a little more carefully, my odyssey began. I confess, I was so niave that I thought that the idea of transmutation of nuclear waste was original with me. Only later did I understand that it is a widely understood concept, one that is likely to play a serious role in reducing the health and safety risks of nuclear power very close to the vanishing point. After some time, I rather became obsessed with the idea and later took it upon myself to explore subjects like nuclear engineering, risk analysis, and nuclear chemistry.
Even you accepted the ludicrous claim that 2,000,000 people (or 4% of the Ukrainian population) were killed by Chernobyl, which neither you nor I do, you would still have a death rate for the entire history of nuclear power (40+ years) of 2,000,000/40 = 50,000 persons a year dying from nuclear power worldwide. This is a number easily dwarfed by the deaths per year from air pollution in some single cities, never mind the planet as a whole. There is no such thing as risk free energy and anyone who claims there is, is either deluded or a liar.
The questions of Chernobyl need to be studied; they need to be discussed and we need to learn the lessons that the tragedy has to teach us and spread them as widely as possible. I contend, and I know you agree, that one lesson that should NOT be taken is that nuclear power should be abandoned. The more carefully we look at the issues surrounding Chernobyl, the easier it will become to make intelligent decisions. If there's one thing that people need to do in times when the threat to the planet is as serious as it is, it is clear thinking. We ought to do everything to we can to make sure that our energy choices have the least possible environmental, health, and aesthetic consequences. The tragedy at Chernobyl is an important sign post in the road to accomplishing this difficult task.
Again, your posts to this thread have been very fine, and I thank you again for the time you invested in putting them together.
|
| -EU study of external costs of energy: What you pay with your flesh. |
NNadir |
Mar-07-04 07:23 PM |
#0 |
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external costs of Chernobyl? |
villager |
Mar-07-04 07:29 PM |
#1 |
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At Three Mile Island the external costs were essentially zero. |
NNadir |
Mar-07-04 08:02 PM |
#4 |
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"Yours is a reaction that is pretty typical, and pretty wrong" |
villager |
Mar-07-04 10:15 PM |
#6 |
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The condescension derives from scientific reality. |
NNadir |
Mar-14-04 12:21 AM |
#16 |
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Name removed |
Mar-14-04 09:40 AM |
#17 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-14-04 09:46 AM |
#18 |
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Nice tombstone treepig |
jpak |
Mar-07-05 10:27 AM |
#123 |
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Yeah right. |
NNadir |
Mar-07-05 05:59 PM |
#127 |
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Chernobyl's soiled legacy |
Bdog |
Mar-14-04 02:15 PM |
#19 |
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I have the full one page article in front of me and will type the data... |
NNadir |
Mar-15-04 11:51 AM |
#23 |
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On the subject of controls and comparisons. |
NNadir |
Mar-15-04 12:30 PM |
#24 |
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It proves, once again |
Bdog |
Mar-17-04 08:50 AM |
#37 |
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I hate corrupt DNA. |
NNadir |
Mar-17-04 09:50 AM |
#41 |
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I know... |
Bdog |
Mar-17-04 09:31 PM |
#44 |
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DNA is the program of life. |
Bdog |
Mar-17-04 10:40 PM |
#45 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-18-04 06:28 AM |
#47 |
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'Sophisticated Molecular Machine' Is Found To Govern Cell's Reading Of DNA |
Bdog |
Mar-18-04 08:41 AM |
#49 |
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Mar-18-04 01:49 PM |
#52 |
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No, I care very deeply. Which is why I have spent decades understanding |
NNadir |
Mar-18-04 10:19 AM |
#51 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-15-04 01:37 PM |
#25 |
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Thanx for jumping in here. |
NNadir |
Mar-15-04 03:45 PM |
#27 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-15-04 05:31 PM |
#30 |
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I hate to disagree, but Chernobyl is rarely discussed so dispassionately. |
NNadir |
Mar-15-04 08:17 PM |
#31 |
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My only beef with nuclear power is |
JCCyC |
Mar-17-04 09:34 AM |
#38 |
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This is true. The resource will only last about three millenia. |
NNadir |
Mar-17-04 09:43 AM |
#39 |
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Would it last 3000 years... |
JCCyC |
Mar-17-04 09:48 AM |
#40 |
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It would last about 3000 years if world-wide energy consumption stabilized |
NNadir |
Mar-18-04 11:04 PM |
#61 |
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3000 year supply??? Don't think so... |
jpak |
Mar-06-05 05:12 PM |
#119 |
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Yeah right. |
NNadir |
Mar-06-05 06:12 PM |
#120 |
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The concentration of uranium in seawater is 3 µg (micrograms) per liter |
jpak |
Mar-07-05 11:37 AM |
#124 |
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Yeah right. |
NNadir |
Mar-07-05 05:58 PM |
#126 |
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Honesty and politics |
cprise |
Mar-16-04 05:29 AM |
#32 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-16-04 06:35 AM |
#33 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-16-04 06:44 AM |
#34 |
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Actually it is not "hysteria". The study I included shows that while |
NNadir |
Mar-16-04 07:18 AM |
#35 |
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Chernobyl raised mutations 600% |
Bdog |
Mar-14-04 02:20 PM |
#20 |
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Mar-15-04 01:47 PM |
#26 |
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Deleted message |
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Mar-15-04 05:22 PM |
#29 |
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Fitness loss and germline mutations in barn swallows breeding in Chernobyl |
Bdog |
Mar-14-04 03:08 PM |
#21 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-15-04 05:12 PM |
#28 |
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It proves, once again |
Bdog |
Mar-17-04 08:48 AM |
#36 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-17-04 03:53 PM |
#42 |
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Perhaps you don’t understand what you are reading and quoting. |
Bdog |
Mar-17-04 09:25 PM |
#43 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-18-04 06:25 AM |
#46 |
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Just some advice. |
NNadir |
Mar-18-04 07:15 AM |
#48 |
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Meow |
Bdog |
Mar-18-04 09:27 AM |
#50 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-18-04 02:09 PM |
#53 |
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Name one place ... |
Bdog |
Mar-18-04 02:33 PM |
#54 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-18-04 03:15 PM |
#55 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-18-04 03:46 PM |
#56 |
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Deleted message |
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Mar-18-04 03:50 PM |
#57 |
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Your posts are silly and meaningless. |
Bdog |
Mar-18-04 07:18 PM |
#58 |
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Name removed |
Mar-18-04 08:23 PM |
#59 |
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Well done. |
NNadir |
Mar-18-04 10:44 PM |
#60 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Mar-19-04 06:46 AM |
#62 |
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Well the question of hormesis arose, as I understand it, because |
NNadir |
Mar-19-04 02:29 PM |
#63 |
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Deleted message |
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Mar-20-04 07:54 AM |
#64 |
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Fascinating what a mixed bag it is! |
Ready4Change |
Mar-07-04 07:35 PM |
#2 |
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I'm not so surprised to see PV at 0.6 |
RoadRunner |
Mar-07-04 07:49 PM |
#3 |
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When you look at the numbers PV does quite well. |
NNadir |
Mar-07-04 08:10 PM |
#5 |
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PV is more valuable than that |
cprise |
Mar-08-04 12:14 AM |
#7 |
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Now it's worth it to look at total cost, external + generating. |
NNadir |
Mar-08-04 10:41 PM |
#8 |
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There is a huge difference between refereed journals and promotional |
Bdog |
Mar-09-04 10:22 AM |
#9 |
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Oh jeeze... |
NNadir |
Mar-09-04 11:43 AM |
#10 |
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toxic uranium tailings next to river that supplies water to southern CA |
Bdog |
Mar-13-04 01:21 PM |
#15 |
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There is a problem with that chart |
cprise |
Mar-09-04 12:48 PM |
#11 |
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Gee, I hate to agree with you on something, but that's a valid criticism. |
NNadir |
Mar-13-04 01:37 AM |
#13 |
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Generator |
BareKnuckledLiberal |
Mar-12-04 09:50 PM |
#12 |
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Cool song. I remember the fool Sting, a blatant consumer if there ever |
NNadir |
Mar-13-04 01:43 AM |
#14 |
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What a great debate |
JetCityLiberal |
Mar-15-04 01:40 AM |
#22 |
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If no one objects, I would like to kick this thread up so it's |
NNadir |
Mar-31-04 04:24 PM |
#65 |
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I would like to repeat the statement in post #65. |
NNadir |
May-23-04 12:34 AM |
#66 |
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As I am referring to this study in another thread, I'm kicking it again. |
NNadir |
Jun-13-04 04:27 PM |
#67 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jul-03-04 08:56 AM |
#68 |
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I recall you from the old days at SmirkingChimp. |
NNadir |
Jul-03-04 09:48 AM |
#69 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Jul-03-04 10:00 AM |
#70 |
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Nice strawman seventhson |
jpak |
Mar-08-05 01:21 PM |
#136 |
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I bump this thread every once in a while when I need it in another thread. |
NNadir |
Aug-14-04 02:42 AM |
#71 |
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Bump away. Its a good thread. |
Moderator |
Aug-14-04 02:59 AM |
#72 |
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If you don't mind, I will do it again, as I need it again. |
NNadir |
Sep-18-04 10:45 AM |
#73 |
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Once again. |
NNadir |
Nov-15-04 07:02 PM |
#74 |
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I have studied these issues. |
Mackenzie |
Nov-20-04 10:45 PM |
#75 |
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My own main "objections" |
BareKnuckledLiberal |
Nov-21-04 05:46 AM |
#76 |
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These are valid concerns. |
NNadir |
Nov-21-04 10:42 AM |
#78 |
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In terms of noise and traffic, it is rather like an office park, from what |
NNadir |
Nov-21-04 10:07 AM |
#77 |
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Thank you. |
Mackenzie |
Nov-21-04 10:55 AM |
#79 |
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In defense of those of us who protested; we had very little history |
NNadir |
Nov-21-04 11:21 AM |
#80 |
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Let us now consider how much waste is generated by coal. |
NNadir |
Dec-28-04 07:55 PM |
#81 |
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For my discussion of radioiodide I need these figures on mercury from coal |
NNadir |
Mar-31-05 07:13 PM |
#169 |
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Let us now consider the quantity and quality of "nuclear waste." |
NNadir |
Dec-31-04 06:47 AM |
#82 |
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First links to some discussions here of the induction product tritium. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 09:42 AM |
#83 |
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Cesium, Sakarhov, and Pauling. My first impressions of radiocesium. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 10:52 PM |
#84 |
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Cesium: The bad news. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 11:07 PM |
#85 |
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#1: Cesium forms lots of soluble compounds. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 11:09 PM |
#86 |
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#2. Cesium is a rather common fission product. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 11:16 PM |
#87 |
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#3 Cesium is not of vast economic importance. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 11:23 PM |
#88 |
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#4. The isotope Cs-135 has a very long half-life. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 11:26 PM |
#89 |
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#5. The transmutation of Cesium isotopes is complicated and difficult. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 11:31 PM |
#90 |
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Do you have any well-documented sources |
RafterMan |
Feb-19-05 11:55 PM |
#93 |
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I have a non-internet source in my home library. |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 12:28 AM |
#94 |
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You may wish to check post #100, (my #5) below which addresses this |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 09:05 AM |
#102 |
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#6. Cesium-137 is a powerful gamma emitter. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 11:33 PM |
#91 |
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Cesium: Mitigating factors and good news. |
NNadir |
Feb-19-05 11:39 PM |
#92 |
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Here is my source |
RafterMan |
Feb-20-05 12:35 AM |
#95 |
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#1: At full power, the yield of Cesium-135 is substantially reduced. |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 07:06 AM |
#96 |
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#2 The bioavailability of cesium isotopes decrease quickly in soils. |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 07:13 AM |
#97 |
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#3The earth naturally contains hundreds of billions of curies of K and Rb. |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 07:22 AM |
#98 |
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#4 A very stable water insoluble cesium mineral is known. |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 07:51 AM |
#99 |
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#5. At constant power, less and less cesium forms every year. |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 09:02 AM |
#100 |
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There is a typo in this post. |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 10:47 AM |
#103 |
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I think there's another typo |
RafterMan |
Feb-20-05 10:30 PM |
#105 |
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I think you may be making a mistake. |
NNadir |
Feb-21-05 07:28 AM |
#106 |
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It's just plain wrong -period. |
jpak |
Mar-07-05 01:44 PM |
#125 |
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Yeah right. |
NNadir |
Mar-07-05 06:14 PM |
#128 |
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If anyone serious wants a more detailed description of radioequilibrium |
NNadir |
Mar-07-05 06:39 PM |
#129 |
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I have more on this subject of mitigation, good news, and technology but |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 09:04 AM |
#101 |
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#6 Even if 100% escaped, radiocesium would have trivial biological effects |
NNadir |
Feb-20-05 07:09 PM |
#104 |
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The - most - bizarre - post - ever |
jpak |
Mar-07-05 07:14 PM |
#130 |
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Yeah right. |
NNadir |
Mar-07-05 07:35 PM |
#131 |
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The annual dose from K-40 in human tissue is |
jpak |
Mar-07-05 08:41 PM |
#132 |
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Yeah right. |
NNadir |
Mar-07-05 09:00 PM |
#135 |
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Cesium-135 is the most potent ion propulsion engine fuel known. |
NNadir |
Feb-22-05 07:55 PM |
#107 |
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Technetium: The first synthetic element; still being made by doctors. |
NNadir |
Mar-03-05 10:25 PM |
#108 |
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Errata and additions. |
NNadir |
Mar-04-05 09:04 PM |
#109 |
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An interesting note on the Noddacks, "Masurium" and Rhenium. |
NNadir |
Mar-12-05 02:24 AM |
#143 |
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Technetium: Fission yield then the bad news about Technetium. |
NNadir |
Mar-05-05 12:25 PM |
#113 |
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#1: Technetium has an "intermediate" half-life of 211,100 years. |
NNadir |
Mar-05-05 07:58 PM |
#115 |
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#2: The aqueous chemistry of Technetium is dominated by an anion. |
NNadir |
Mar-05-05 08:49 PM |
#116 |
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#3: Pertechnic acid and ditechnetium heptaoxide are volatile compounds. |
NNadir |
Mar-06-05 05:37 AM |
#117 |
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#4: The radioequilibrium value for Tc accumulation is theoretically high. |
NNadir |
Mar-06-05 08:57 AM |
#118 |
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#5: Technetium heptafluoride is volatile. |
NNadir |
Mar-06-05 08:44 PM |
#121 |
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Note my error in post #82. I noticed this in preparation for the Tc |
NNadir |
Mar-06-05 09:31 PM |
#122 |
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Stenography is not Science |
jpak |
Mar-07-05 08:46 PM |
#133 |
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Yeah right. |
NNadir |
Mar-07-05 08:58 PM |
#134 |
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Nonsense |
jpak |
Mar-12-05 02:34 PM |
#145 |
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Whatever. |
NNadir |
Mar-12-05 03:29 PM |
#146 |
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Some of us know all about chemistry and radiation |
jpak |
Mar-12-05 04:28 PM |
#147 |
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Yeah right. |
NNadir |
Mar-12-05 07:02 PM |
#148 |
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Technetium: Mitigating Factors and Good News. |
NNadir |
Mar-08-05 07:04 PM |
#137 |
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#1: Ammonium pertechnate is one of the best corrosion inhibitors known. |
NNadir |
Mar-08-05 10:20 PM |
#138 |
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#2: People routinely have technetium injected into their veins. |
NNadir |
Mar-09-05 07:00 PM |
#139 |
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#3. Monoisotopic Tc is easily transmutable into valuable ruthenium. |
NNadir |
Mar-09-05 10:55 PM |
#140 |
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Technetium has a high melting point, and excellent mechanical properties. |
NNadir |
Mar-10-05 09:52 PM |
#141 |
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#5. Technetium is a pure beta emitter with no decay chain. |
NNadir |
Mar-11-05 09:52 PM |
#142 |
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#6. The rate of migration of Tc at Oklo was 0.01 mm/year. |
NNadir |
Mar-12-05 11:44 AM |
#144 |
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Just to be a little more graphic about this, this means that if the Tc |
NNadir |
Mar-13-05 06:35 AM |
#150 |
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#7. Technetium fluoride is volatile. |
NNadir |
Mar-12-05 07:47 PM |
#149 |
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#8. I happen to be in a university library (not the library I usually... |
NNadir |
Mar-15-05 05:31 PM |
#151 |
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Radioiodine: In medicine, in nuclear catastrophe, in injury, & in death. |
NNadir |
Mar-20-05 04:00 PM |
#156 |
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Radioiodine, risks, difficulties, concerns and problems. |
NNadir |
Mar-22-05 07:00 PM |
#157 |
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#1: Iodine is important in the chemistry of life. |
NNadir |
Mar-23-05 09:25 PM |
#158 |
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#2. Iodine easily escapes in nuclear war, accidents and reprocessing. |
NNadir |
Mar-25-05 08:20 PM |
#159 |
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#3. Radioequilibrium places few limits on the accumulation of I-129. |
NNadir |
Mar-26-05 04:53 PM |
#162 |
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#4. Physical decontamination of I-129 is technically impossible. |
NNadir |
Mar-26-05 08:44 PM |
#163 |
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#5. At the Oklo nuclear reactors, iodine was not retained in the reactor. |
NNadir |
Mar-27-05 09:56 AM |
#164 |
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#6. I-129 is always produced in the presence of I-127. |
NNadir |
Mar-27-05 11:04 PM |
#165 |
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#7: Iodine has little economic value. |
NNadir |
Mar-30-05 10:00 PM |
#168 |
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Iodine, the Greenpeace Headlines and Reality. |
NNadir |
Mar-29-05 08:10 PM |
#166 |
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#1. Iodine is a trace biological element; I-129, a trace of a trace. |
NNadir |
Mar-30-05 05:16 AM |
#167 |
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#2: Iodine can be recovered and contained, but is it worth it to do so? |
NNadir |
Mar-31-05 09:28 PM |
#170 |
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Relevant to this case, consider this article. |
NNadir |
Apr-01-05 05:39 AM |
#171 |
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#3: The creation of one atom of I-129 prevents 71 actinide decays. |
NNadir |
Apr-02-05 08:16 AM |
#172 |
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Iodine is easily transmutable into valuable xenon. |
NNadir |
Apr-03-05 08:04 AM |
#173 |
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#5. The main cancer associated with I-131 is largely curable. |
NNadir |
Apr-10-05 06:32 AM |
#174 |
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Radionuclides with intermediate half-lives. |
NNadir |
Apr-29-05 07:42 PM |
#175 |
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The chemistry, biochemistry and nuclear physics of Strontium. |
NNadir |
May-01-05 05:47 AM |
#176 |
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Strontium, risks, difficulties, concerns and problems. |
NNadir |
May-09-05 09:52 AM |
#179 |
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Total newbie question here. |
BlueEyedSon |
Mar-05-05 05:49 AM |
#110 |
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An excellent question, |
NNadir |
Mar-05-05 08:11 AM |
#111 |
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SOTA = state of the art. Years ago the thermal problem with |
BlueEyedSon |
Mar-05-05 12:01 PM |
#112 |
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It has changed for some reactors, not all. |
NNadir |
Mar-05-05 12:43 PM |
#114 |
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PBR, and not the beer |
dcfirefighter |
Mar-25-05 10:24 PM |
#160 |
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I am often asked this question. |
NNadir |
Mar-26-05 06:39 AM |
#161 |
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I Live in the Heart of Coal Country |
MountainKeeper |
Mar-15-05 11:47 PM |
#152 |
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I feel for you. I am very much aware of what is being done to your home. |
NNadir |
Mar-16-05 04:46 AM |
#153 |
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Yes, the State of West Virginia could ban that practice today |
jpak |
Mar-16-05 11:17 AM |
#154 |
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Yeah right. |
NNadir |
Mar-16-05 10:34 PM |
#155 |
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PV has higher externalities than nuclear???? |
Filius Nullius |
May-02-05 12:33 AM |
#177 |
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This is calculation, not religion. Their methods are given. |
NNadir |
May-02-05 02:59 AM |
#178 |