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Reply #53: Yin and yang [View All]

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GliderGuider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-16-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. Yin and yang
On the one hand innovation gave us the Internet. On the other hand it gave us cyanide gold mining. Aside from the value of any particular innovation considered within a specific context, there is a broader question. For me, that question is something like,

"Given the current social and ecological situation, as well as the observable trends in those conditions and what we know about the forces that shape human behaviour; on balance has human technological innovation been a good or bad thing for the species that share the planet; has innovation contributed to the crisis more than ameliorated it; and will more innovation change the observed trends for the better rather than for the worse?"

The answer to this question is very personal, and reflects our inner value landscape. My answer is rooted in the observation that while I enjoy the fruits of some innovations, I recognize that nothing happens in isolation from everything else. Since I see a lot of negative impacts that have been leveraged by innovation, by and large I see innovation as a negative force.

If I had been born into a world without so much innovation I'd still have been happy. However, I am where I am, so like everyone else I'll use the tools available to me to change the things I don't like about the world I'm in.
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  -A Message to the Nearly Converted GliderGuider  Jun-11-09 08:18 AM   #0 
  - We've turned the corner of the "hockey stick" on so many levels  IrateCitizen   Jun-11-09 08:34 AM   #1 
  - Technology might save a few of us........  Burma Jones   Jun-11-09 08:43 AM   #2 
  - What could possibly go wrong?  pscot   Jun-11-09 10:50 AM   #3 
  - Thanks, but the applause belongs to Jason Bradford. I just clapped along... nt  GliderGuider   Jun-11-09 11:29 AM   #6 
  - Pretty clearly stated, and true.  tom_paine   Jun-11-09 11:05 AM   #4 
  - Here's a comment I posted in that thread, that bears on your question.  GliderGuider   Jun-11-09 11:26 AM   #5 
  - a "transformation of consciousness from an economic paradigm to an ecological one"  OKIsItJustMe   Jun-11-09 11:44 AM   #7 
  - What you describe here made me think about economics vs. ecology  IrateCitizen   Jun-11-09 11:54 AM   #8 
  - As you point out,  GliderGuider   Jun-11-09 12:26 PM   #11 
  - I like that analogy.  IrateCitizen   Jun-11-09 01:04 PM   #12 
  - Wendell Berry addresses this sort of concept in a lot of his essays.  kestrel91316   Jun-11-09 06:26 PM   #17 
  - Your last paragraph,  Delphinus   Jun-12-09 07:51 AM   #21 
     - My comment is meant more in regards to basic needs...  IrateCitizen   Jun-12-09 08:19 AM   #25 
     - Because corps are "people"...  wuvuj   Jun-14-09 07:20 PM   #36 
  - Great piece and commentary.  Terry in Austin   Jun-11-09 11:58 AM   #9 
     - "Business as usual", I believe. n/t  tom_paine   Jun-11-09 12:13 PM   #10 
        - Ah -- thanks n/t  Terry in Austin   Jun-11-09 01:05 PM   #13 
  - Voluntary or involuntary?  GliderGuider   Jun-11-09 03:02 PM   #16 
     - Can you elaborate on/attempt to prove one proposition here?  HamdenRice   Jun-12-09 07:55 AM   #22 
     - "Proof" of that idea is of course impossible.  GliderGuider   Jun-12-09 09:06 AM   #26 
     - Oh, Glider,  Delphinus   Jun-12-09 07:57 AM   #23 
        - There are millions upon millions of others doing the same.  GliderGuider   Jun-12-09 10:21 AM   #27 
        - This "spiritual" view is why the green movement has failed so unbelievably hard...  joshcryer   Jun-21-09 12:37 AM   #89 
  - Gee, why does every graph have an exponential appearance?  Gregorian   Jun-11-09 01:59 PM   #14 
  - Conversion? So this really is religious mumbo-jumbo parading as ecological reasoning, isn't it?  HamdenRice   Jun-11-09 02:07 PM   #15 
  - You are as obnoxious as fuck-all and have no business here.  Systematic Chaos   Jun-12-09 02:30 AM   #19 
     - Is this a Forum? Or a Group?  HamdenRice   Jun-12-09 07:04 AM   #20 
        - "all ideas are subject to scrutiny and must stand on their own strengths and weaknesses"  GliderGuider   Jun-12-09 08:09 AM   #24 
        - Day now sufficiently brightened!  Systematic Chaos   Jun-13-09 02:43 AM   #33 
  - point 7, car dealerships  excess_3   Jun-12-09 02:21 AM   #18 
  - Thanks for the article--it was a great laugh.  guardian   Jun-12-09 01:13 PM   #28 
  - Oh yeah, that dang discredited hockey stick graph  NickB79   Jun-12-09 02:23 PM   #29 
  - "Is the US National Academy of Sciences qualified to comment on global warming?"  GliderGuider   Jun-12-09 02:33 PM   #30 
  - I'm just waiting for the OISM petition to surface . . .  hatrack   Jun-12-09 02:38 PM   #31 
  - the results of the NAS vote was?  excess_3   Jun-13-09 03:59 AM   #34 
     - I don't remember voting on Newton's theory of gravity  NickB79   Jun-13-09 10:42 AM   #35 
  - So am I to understand that you're not "nearly converted"?  GliderGuider   Jun-12-09 02:41 PM   #32 
     - The conversion process...  wuvuj   Jun-14-09 07:30 PM   #37 
  - I agree with the premise, I disagree with the implications.  joshcryer   Jun-15-09 01:20 AM   #38 
  - The article ignores artificial intelligence  Nederland   Jun-15-09 11:48 AM   #39 
  - The terms of the debate are not determined solely by you.  IrateCitizen   Jun-15-09 12:54 PM   #40 
  - AI doesn't exist yet  Nederland   Jun-15-09 02:19 PM   #41 
     - So, let me get this straight...  IrateCitizen   Jun-15-09 08:37 PM   #46 
        - Learn to read  Nederland   Jun-16-09 09:30 AM   #51 
           - I read your remark just fine, and I stand by my previous statement.  IrateCitizen   Jun-16-09 01:36 PM   #54 
              - Of course it's an opinion  Nederland   Jun-17-09 10:48 AM   #60 
                 - There's a difference between a supported and unsupported opinion  IrateCitizen   Jun-17-09 12:16 PM   #62 
  - Natural intelligence got us into this mess. How would the artificial variety get us out?  GliderGuider   Jun-15-09 03:22 PM   #42 
  - By increasing the pace of innovation by several orders magnitude  Nederland   Jun-15-09 04:27 PM   #43 
     - "AI is the last invention humans will ever produce"  GliderGuider   Jun-15-09 05:14 PM   #44 
        - Innovation is what allows this discussion to happen  Nederland   Jun-16-09 09:35 AM   #52 
           - Yin and yang  GliderGuider   Jun-16-09 10:56 AM   #53 
              - The key is that you place value on the internet, but seemingly want to convice others...  joshcryer   Jun-16-09 10:10 PM   #58 
                 - You're projecting.  GliderGuider   Jun-17-09 11:21 AM   #61 
                    - The thing is that you're hung up on cost when it is simply non-existant.  joshcryer   Jun-18-09 02:18 AM   #66 
                       - Good luck with that.  GliderGuider   Jun-18-09 05:10 AM   #68 
                          - Yeah, it's religious to ascribe to an objective reality based view of "economics."  joshcryer   Jun-18-09 06:00 PM   #72 
                             - I don't know where you learned your history, but that's not how it happened  IrateCitizen   Jun-19-09 07:48 AM   #78 
                                - Nice and concise!  GliderGuider   Jun-19-09 08:29 AM   #80 
                                - Never read Zerzan nor Quinn...  IrateCitizen   Jun-19-09 08:58 AM   #81 
                                - It's wonderful that this is now being taught in Grade 9.  GliderGuider   Jun-19-09 09:02 AM   #82 
                                   - It's not being taught across the board, but I taught it in grade 9...  IrateCitizen   Jun-19-09 09:09 AM   #83 
                                - Yeah, the whole "agriculture caused authoritarianism" argument is quite common with Zerzan.  joshcryer   Jun-20-09 12:44 AM   #86 
                                - Tools do not indicate being out of equllibrium with the environment.  joshcryer   Jun-20-09 12:39 AM   #84 
                                   - I never said this is how things "have" to be....  IrateCitizen   Jun-20-09 09:49 AM   #87 
                                      - You never said this is the way things "have" to be but you say:  joshcryer   Jun-20-09 11:34 PM   #88 
                                         - Response...  IrateCitizen   Jun-22-09 08:04 AM   #90 
                                            - Honestly, I don't see much disagreement here.  joshcryer   Jun-23-09 10:44 AM   #91 
                                               - The disagreement isn't about physics...  IrateCitizen   Jun-23-09 03:36 PM   #92 
                                                  - You err on the side of convention and aren't forward thinking.  joshcryer   Jun-24-09 10:34 PM   #93 
  - For a longer discussion that has this same general focus  GliderGuider   Jun-15-09 05:24 PM   #45 
  - It's either that or a varient of that, or all known life in the universe goes extinct.  joshcryer   Jun-16-09 02:05 AM   #47 
  - The article also "ignores" low cost fusion, high mortality pandemics, ...  Nihil   Jun-16-09 04:36 AM   #48 
     - I think my sigline thoroughly debunks the article.  joshcryer   Jun-16-09 04:43 AM   #49 
        - I don't have siglines turned on ...  Nihil   Jun-16-09 06:32 AM   #50 
        - My sig says:  joshcryer   Jun-16-09 10:05 PM   #57 
           - Thanks for posting that.  Nihil   Jun-17-09 03:08 AM   #59 
           - Water, water everywhere  pscot   Jun-17-09 12:20 PM   #63 
        - Hallelujah! The dilemma is solved!  IrateCitizen   Jun-16-09 01:40 PM   #55 
           - Since most of the worlds populations live in cities, and cities have comparatively small...  joshcryer   Jun-16-09 10:03 PM   #56 
              - Your first point is EXTREMELY debatable  IrateCitizen   Jun-17-09 12:30 PM   #64 
              - I think you ought to be a bit more open minded than that.  joshcryer   Jun-18-09 02:10 AM   #65 
                 - Urban vs. rural pollution  GliderGuider   Jun-18-09 05:00 AM   #67 
                 - I addressed that, did you even read what I wrote?  joshcryer   Jun-18-09 07:29 PM   #73 
                 - How do you restrict the city to a niche that doesn't expand?  The2ndWheel   Jun-18-09 09:04 AM   #70 
                    - Populations drop as living standards go up. They wouldn't expand because their populations...  joshcryer   Jun-18-09 07:30 PM   #74 
                       - But what if a city wanted to expand?  The2ndWheel   Jun-19-09 12:26 AM   #76 
                          - So what if they did expand?  joshcryer   Jun-19-09 01:25 AM   #77 
                             - Our current consumption is what we did about it  The2ndWheel   Jun-19-09 08:28 AM   #79 
                                - It would make our consumption irrelevant because we would recycle everything.  joshcryer   Jun-20-09 12:40 AM   #85 
              - Releasing self-replicating machines lose into the world's oceans  NickB79   Jun-18-09 12:44 PM   #71 
                 - They're not self-replicating, they're hive replicating.  joshcryer   Jun-18-09 07:31 PM   #75 
  - The Message of Overconsumption  GliderGuider   Jun-18-09 05:49 AM   #69 

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