| 140. The soul of the party |
|
By this argument, is the 10% or less who agree with Mairead. Might as well throw in the Greens who've abandoned the party altogether. So, being extremely generous, we're talking about less than 20% of the electorate.
Yes, once we've recaptured that less-than-twenty-percent, we'll have rights aplenty. We'll be kicking lots of sand in the faces of Bush's forty-plus percent and the part of the remaining forty-plus percent who gravitate toward him for lack of a credible alternative.
At least, by golly, "we" will be able to boss "our" totally irrelevant far-left-wing party as we like, and that'll be something to comfort us as our sons and daughters invade France.
|
| -Kucinich is "unelectable"- a question. |
diamondsoul |
Oct-13-03 01:02 PM |
#0 |
-
Imagine how stupid those who voted against FDR in the primary |
genius |
Oct-13-03 01:05 PM |
#1 |
 -
Well said, my friend! |
diamondsoul |
Oct-13-03 01:12 PM |
#2 |
 -
Oh please |
jsw_81 |
Oct-14-03 12:42 AM |
#50 |
  -
um |
OhioStateProgressive |
Oct-26-03 07:02 AM |
#222 |
 -
How would I feel? |
Tom Rinaldo |
Oct-20-03 06:28 PM |
#151 |
-
I've felt fine |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-21-03 07:18 AM |
#157 |
-
not all greens |
zonmoy |
Oct-21-03 04:11 PM |
#178 |
-
And where did it get you? |
library_max |
Oct-21-03 04:16 PM |
#180 |
-
Thats the message |
leftbend |
Oct-13-03 01:14 PM |
#3 |
 -
If not now, when? Fair question... |
Tom Rinaldo |
Oct-20-03 06:10 PM |
#148 |
-
I've noticed that the criticisms of Dennis all boil down to one thing |
Mairead |
Oct-21-03 08:25 AM |
#164 |
-
"rethink?" |
Tom Rinaldo |
Oct-21-03 09:56 AM |
#166 |
-
Thank You! |
Rainbowreflect |
Oct-13-03 01:15 PM |
#4 |
-
WHAT IF... |
LoZoccolo |
Oct-13-03 01:17 PM |
#5 |
 -
What if I am inspired by the idea of what my nation should be |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-13-03 01:20 PM |
#7 |
 -
Ok that was funny, but in a very scary way. |
diamondsoul |
Oct-13-03 01:24 PM |
#8 |
-
I can't help but think |
MuseRider |
Oct-13-03 01:18 PM |
#6 |
-
I used to be an idealist... |
blackcat77 |
Oct-13-03 01:29 PM |
#9 |
 -
I disagree with you. |
diamondsoul |
Oct-13-03 01:43 PM |
#13 |
-
yeah youre right |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-13-03 01:46 PM |
#14 |
-
So the Clinton years and the Bush years were the same. |
library_max |
Oct-13-03 03:52 PM |
#21 |
 -
For a lot of working people, Bush is no different than Clinton |
no name no slogan |
Oct-13-03 05:56 PM |
#43 |
-
Okay, so you're limiting the debate to pocketbook issues |
library_max |
Oct-14-03 12:19 PM |
#57 |
-
Services |
sandnsea |
Oct-19-03 02:19 PM |
#88 |
-
Change |
sandnsea |
Oct-19-03 02:08 PM |
#87 |
-
Status quo Dems vs. Bush |
diamondsoul |
Oct-19-03 10:47 PM |
#120 |
-
I just disagree |
sandnsea |
Oct-20-03 03:25 AM |
#122 |
 -
wow... |
Desertrose |
Oct-20-03 09:43 AM |
#135 |
  -
You make a wild leap |
sandnsea |
Oct-20-03 12:59 PM |
#137 |
 -
"Kucinich doesn't seem willing to admit the simple truth of the ME oil" |
Mairead |
Oct-22-03 12:49 PM |
#215 |
 -
Kucinich's track record |
hippywife |
Oct-20-03 06:18 PM |
#149 |
 -
Let me just say I decided to reply to |
diamondsoul |
Oct-20-03 09:36 PM |
#152 |
-
Just enjoying the conversation |
sandnsea |
Oct-20-03 10:31 PM |
#155 |
-
I agree on Kerry's energy policies. |
diamondsoul |
Oct-21-03 03:59 PM |
#176 |
-
Kucinich won't get us out of Iraq |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-21-03 07:26 AM |
#158 |
-
How do you know that? |
Mairead |
Oct-21-03 08:03 AM |
#162 |
-
Who committed the troops in the Balkans? |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 07:12 AM |
#190 |
-
uhhh...don't want to bust your bubble, but it wasn't Dennis |
Mairead |
Oct-22-03 08:19 AM |
#197 |
-
no...wow...no |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 08:45 AM |
#200 |
-
"you wanted evidence that U.S. troops would have to remain in Iraq" |
Mairead |
Oct-23-03 06:09 PM |
#218 |
-
The UN requested the U.S. send those troops. |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-24-03 06:54 AM |
#219 |
-
You're not answering the question. |
Mairead |
Oct-26-03 06:50 AM |
#221 |
-
and you're rewording the question. |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-27-03 07:54 AM |
#224 |
-
The ideal candidate is the one that can beat Bush. |
union_maid |
Oct-13-03 01:34 PM |
#10 |
 -
I like Braun a lot. My chief complaint |
diamondsoul |
Oct-13-03 01:57 PM |
#15 |
 -
Yup me too |
indigo32 |
Oct-13-03 05:38 PM |
#37 |
-
If Dennis can win the Democratic primary, then he'll be "electable." |
RUMMYisFROSTED |
Oct-13-03 01:36 PM |
#11 |
-
This poll is probably skewed, |
pnorman |
Oct-13-03 01:42 PM |
#12 |
-
I'll just say: 'Oh, too bad!' |
damnraddem |
Oct-13-03 02:39 PM |
#16 |
 -
I like her but I like Kucinich more so |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-13-03 02:42 PM |
#17 |
 -
What if it is? And how are you helping her by attacking me? |
diamondsoul |
Oct-13-03 02:59 PM |
#18 |
-
Thought experiment |
library_max |
Oct-13-03 03:48 PM |
#19 |
 -
what is your point? |
Desertrose |
Oct-13-03 03:50 PM |
#20 |
  -
Everything the original post says about Kucinich |
library_max |
Oct-13-03 03:54 PM |
#22 |
 -
Substituting "Wellstone" is more analagous |
dpbrown |
Oct-13-03 03:55 PM |
#23 |
-
Really? |
library_max |
Oct-13-03 04:02 PM |
#25 |
 -
He was going to in 2000 |
no name no slogan |
Oct-13-03 05:59 PM |
#44 |
-
Being the soul of the Senate and being elected President |
boxster |
Oct-13-03 04:07 PM |
#26 |
 -
yes but Wellstone wasnt expected to well either |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-13-03 04:10 PM |
#27 |
-
I like Kucinich too |
library_max |
Oct-13-03 04:44 PM |
#28 |
 -
Its not mine but I believe that, we went over funding |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-13-03 04:47 PM |
#29 |
-
Good for you. |
library_max |
Oct-13-03 05:32 PM |
#35 |
-
I am a democrat does that suprise you lol |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-13-03 05:33 PM |
#36 |
-
I understood the point he was attempting to make. |
boxster |
Oct-13-03 04:49 PM |
#30 |
-
I guess orry for my intepretion |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-13-03 04:55 PM |
#31 |
 -
No, don't apologize. |
boxster |
Oct-13-03 05:09 PM |
#33 |
  -
with the whole memorial fiasco |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-13-03 05:12 PM |
#34 |
 -
You're correct John |
no name no slogan |
Oct-13-03 06:07 PM |
#45 |
-
Another reason that Mondale didn't make it |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Oct-13-03 05:48 PM |
#39 |
 -
Thanks Lydia |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-13-03 05:50 PM |
#40 |
-
try this little experiment, you might be surprised |
plurality |
Oct-14-03 07:53 AM |
#56 |
-
Hey, Dan |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Oct-13-03 05:52 PM |
#42 |
-
That's the "other" Dan |
dpbrown |
Oct-14-03 12:35 PM |
#59 |
-
and you'll have a great time.... |
Desertrose |
Oct-14-03 12:45 PM |
#61 |
-
Here is why DK is unelectable |
Nederland |
Oct-13-03 04:01 PM |
#24 |
 -
Nothing is simple these days.... |
Desertrose |
Oct-13-03 04:59 PM |
#32 |
  -
Unfortunately thats the world we live in |
indigo32 |
Oct-13-03 05:47 PM |
#38 |
 -
I'm also in favor of the positions listed above... |
MrWiggles |
Oct-14-03 07:17 AM |
#55 |
 -
He's ahead of his time |
Padraig18 |
Oct-21-03 12:58 PM |
#168 |
 -
Ummm no offense but we are constantly told this |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-21-03 01:05 PM |
#169 |
 -
Trust me, John, any Dean supporter understands |
Padraig18 |
Oct-21-03 01:49 PM |
#170 |
 -
Then understand our anger |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-21-03 01:57 PM |
#171 |
 -
I do look at that |
Padraig18 |
Oct-21-03 02:11 PM |
#172 |
 -
Well you know those two things that you mention dont bother me |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-21-03 02:14 PM |
#173 |
 -
Yep |
Padraig18 |
Oct-21-03 02:29 PM |
#174 |
 -
Well if more people could have a bit of common sense and put it |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-21-03 02:38 PM |
#175 |
 -
I wonder... |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Oct-13-03 05:50 PM |
#41 |
  -
Oh Lydia, doing the right thing is meaningless unless we WIN |
no name no slogan |
Oct-13-03 06:17 PM |
#46 |
 -
Need a moderate to win - like hell. |
snoochie |
Oct-13-03 09:03 PM |
#48 |
  -
Oh yeah. |
library_max |
Oct-14-03 12:46 PM |
#62 |
 -
Actually Hightower won TWICE |
no name no slogan |
Oct-21-03 05:15 PM |
#185 |
 -
Gee, I'm SO sorry that the facts annoy you. |
library_max |
Oct-14-03 12:23 PM |
#58 |
 -
You can be a smartass till the cows come home... |
snoochie |
Oct-14-03 08:21 PM |
#63 |
 -
Yes snoochie lets accept defeat |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-14-03 08:24 PM |
#64 |
  -
HA! As if! |
snoochie |
Oct-14-03 08:34 PM |
#66 |
 -
I lose it too, I dont come across that way though |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-14-03 08:45 PM |
#67 |
 -
Just for laughs |
library_max |
Oct-15-03 04:31 PM |
#70 |
 -
Yeah I read it... |
snoochie |
Oct-16-03 07:51 PM |
#78 |
 -
You don't comprehend practical politics. |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 01:41 PM |
#83 |
 -
You're pretty insulting... |
snoochie |
Oct-19-03 03:08 PM |
#94 |
 -
FDR was very vague in his positions during the 1932 election |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 03:31 PM |
#98 |
  -
Sen. Paul simon called FDR... |
Padraig18 |
Oct-19-03 06:25 PM |
#117 |
 -
Thanks, Padraig. |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 06:36 PM |
#118 |
 -
YW |
Padraig18 |
Oct-19-03 06:42 PM |
#119 |
 -
was FDR great? |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-21-03 07:42 AM |
#159 |
 -
retirement age |
goodhue |
Oct-13-03 06:18 PM |
#47 |
-
Let's look at the real numbers for a change, shall we? |
Mairead |
Oct-13-03 11:23 PM |
#49 |
 -
Yea the 90's were great! |
Egnever |
Oct-14-03 02:10 AM |
#51 |
 -
I think this is where Dennis will have victory |
hippywife |
Oct-14-03 06:40 AM |
#52 |
  -
Perhaps I should have used the actual language on that one |
Mairead |
Oct-14-03 06:54 AM |
#53 |
 -
Once again, the rosy assumptions. |
library_max |
Oct-14-03 12:43 PM |
#60 |
-
Ooooh I lost my temper with you once... |
snoochie |
Oct-14-03 08:26 PM |
#65 |
 -
Don't forget that Clinton's plan just plain SUCKED |
no name no slogan |
Oct-15-03 12:21 PM |
#68 |
  -
Maybe it did |
library_max |
Oct-15-03 04:37 PM |
#72 |
 -
"smaller change" |
diamondsoul |
Oct-15-03 08:36 PM |
#75 |
  -
Well okay then |
library_max |
Oct-16-03 05:24 PM |
#77 |
 -
The Clinton plan not passing didn't have a thing to do with |
diamondsoul |
Oct-17-03 01:52 AM |
#81 |
 -
Why start from a "smaller change" position? |
no name no slogan |
Oct-21-03 05:33 PM |
#187 |
 -
And, how amazing, now a abc/wp poll says people are 2:1 in favor |
Mairead |
Oct-22-03 08:32 AM |
#198 |
 -
Hobgoblin question |
Padraig18 |
Oct-22-03 08:57 AM |
#205 |
 -
Because one is a 'declaration against interest', to use the legal term |
Mairead |
Oct-22-03 09:45 AM |
#206 |
 -
Ooooooooooooo-K! n/t |
Padraig18 |
Oct-22-03 10:20 AM |
#209 |
 -
Fine. Obviously one of us is seriously out of touch with reality. |
library_max |
Oct-15-03 04:33 PM |
#71 |
-
Go ahead... |
snoochie |
Oct-16-03 07:56 PM |
#79 |
 -
When has this approach ever worked? |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 01:57 PM |
#86 |
-
That would make sense... |
snoochie |
Oct-19-03 02:33 PM |
#89 |
 -
Interesting reply |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 03:17 PM |
#96 |
  -
I'm sure he isn't |
snoochie |
Oct-19-03 03:30 PM |
#97 |
 -
Regarding Clinton being sorry about his actions in office |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 03:43 PM |
#100 |
 -
can't we find someone between Clinton/Gore and Kucinich... |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-21-03 07:51 AM |
#160 |
-
I would agree with you. n/t |
Padraig18 |
Oct-21-03 08:01 AM |
#161 |
-
Just to explain, it was this part of your melodramatic... |
snoochie |
Oct-19-03 03:33 PM |
#99 |
-
That's your delusional view of the matter. |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 03:45 PM |
#101 |
-
We had 8 years |
hippywife |
Oct-19-03 03:52 PM |
#102 |
-
So how does that make him electable? |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 04:59 PM |
#105 |
-
The problem with your 'concession' is |
Mairead |
Oct-16-03 08:07 PM |
#80 |
-
Have you committed to ABB? |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 01:47 PM |
#85 |
-
The problem with your position |
Mairead |
Oct-19-03 02:49 PM |
#90 |
-
Pretty silly analogy |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 03:00 PM |
#91 |
 -
Would you please address the issue in my reply above? |
snoochie |
Oct-19-03 03:04 PM |
#93 |
  -
I'd like to see his answer too, snoochie |
Mairead |
Oct-19-03 06:01 PM |
#110 |
  -
I answered it where you raised it |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 06:18 PM |
#114 |
 -
Sure you did |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 08:36 AM |
#131 |
 -
No, it's only silly if you're in favor of conditions continuing to worsen |
Mairead |
Oct-19-03 05:21 PM |
#106 |
-
Question: |
Padraig18 |
Oct-19-03 05:42 PM |
#107 |
-
You persist in not getting it |
Mairead |
Oct-19-03 06:00 PM |
#109 |
-
Koolaid? |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 06:15 PM |
#112 |
-
Who is this 'we'? |
Padraig18 |
Oct-19-03 06:20 PM |
#115 |
-
No |
Padraig18 |
Oct-19-03 03:01 PM |
#92 |
-
Yes |
Mairead |
Oct-19-03 05:47 PM |
#108 |
-
Okay, I thought I was getting this, but now I'm lost. |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 06:07 PM |
#111 |
-
You're only lost because you persist in keeping your eyes shut and |
Mairead |
Oct-19-03 06:16 PM |
#113 |
-
No, we're supposed to... |
Padraig18 |
Oct-19-03 06:22 PM |
#116 |
-
No, you're supposed to... |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 06:10 AM |
#125 |
-
"...the traditional ideals of the Democratic Party...." |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 07:07 AM |
#128 |
-
"As defined by WHOM?" |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 08:14 AM |
#130 |
-
That's not an answer--- it's an evasion. n/t |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 09:19 AM |
#134 |
-
They're not rosy assumptions, they're REAL numbers. |
Mairead |
Oct-16-03 08:58 AM |
#76 |
-
Where were you living in 2001 and 2002? |
library_max |
Oct-19-03 03:11 PM |
#95 |
-
In Massachusetts, where I live now |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 05:56 AM |
#124 |
 -
Good for you. |
library_max |
Oct-20-03 11:52 AM |
#136 |
-
"Everything changed after 9/11"? |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Oct-22-03 12:01 PM |
#212 |
-
And they elected Sharon. |
library_max |
Oct-22-03 01:00 PM |
#216 |
-
No. I don't watch T.V. |
LWolf |
Oct-24-03 07:43 AM |
#220 |
-
"Why would I watch TV?" |
library_max |
Oct-26-03 06:44 PM |
#223 |
-
This embodies so much of what inspires me in Dennis!! |
hippywife |
Oct-14-03 07:15 AM |
#54 |
-
vote in the DU primary |
cosmicdot |
Oct-15-03 02:20 PM |
#69 |
-
During the primary season, and |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Oct-15-03 06:54 PM |
#73 |
 -
good point |
goodhue |
Oct-15-03 07:07 PM |
#74 |
-
If Kucinich is the "most electable"... |
Frodo |
Oct-17-03 07:41 AM |
#82 |
-
Moderate voters outnumber liberal voters. |
poskonig |
Oct-19-03 01:46 PM |
#84 |
 -
You say this... |
hippywife |
Oct-19-03 03:57 PM |
#103 |
  -
With all due respect... |
Padraig18 |
Oct-19-03 04:08 PM |
#104 |
 -
And you never doubt that those polls are accurate, do you? |
diamondsoul |
Oct-19-03 11:11 PM |
#121 |
 -
I'm sorry |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 05:12 AM |
#123 |
 -
They don't have to be 'part of some huge anti-DK conspiracy' |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 06:19 AM |
#126 |
 -
Since their votes count 1:1, just like everyone else's... |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 07:11 AM |
#129 |
 -
"This election is not about some abstract 'heart and soul'" |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 09:04 AM |
#132 |
 -
",,,it is about recapturing our sovereign right to self-government...." |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 09:17 AM |
#133 |
 -
I'm struggling to believe you're serious |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 02:05 PM |
#138 |
 -
*Your definition* of 'soul of the party' |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 03:27 PM |
#139 |
  -
The soul of the party |
library_max |
Oct-20-03 04:16 PM |
#140 |
 -
The 70's and 80's, all over again |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 04:21 PM |
#141 |
  -
"The party of 2003 is not the party of 1963. Parties evolve" |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 04:56 PM |
#143 |
 -
It is NOT 'meaningless' |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 06:18 PM |
#150 |
 -
"being extremely generous, {that's} less than 20% of the electorate" |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 04:48 PM |
#142 |
 -
Your wish is my command. |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 04:57 PM |
#144 |
 -
Did you see the "And don't bother with self-labeling" part? |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 05:10 PM |
#145 |
 -
I give up |
Padraig18 |
Oct-20-03 05:15 PM |
#146 |
 -
Okay, how about this? |
library_max |
Oct-20-03 05:18 PM |
#147 |
 -
how the hell is a choice between |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-21-03 08:11 AM |
#163 |
 -
You're focusing on the distractions, exactly as they intend you to do |
Mairead |
Oct-21-03 08:48 AM |
#165 |
 -
Reproductive rights is a distraction? |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 07:05 AM |
#188 |
  -
Sorry that you don't get it |
Mairead |
Oct-22-03 07:21 AM |
#191 |
 -
whatever. |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 08:07 AM |
#195 |
 -
Gay rights is a distraction? |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 07:08 AM |
#189 |
 -
Yes, it's a distraction. |
Mairead |
Oct-22-03 07:25 AM |
#193 |
 -
you honestly don't think gay marriage would be progress? |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 08:13 AM |
#196 |
 -
Not if it's a sop, no. What's hard to understand about that? |
Mairead |
Oct-22-03 08:40 AM |
#199 |
 -
That was Clinton. |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 08:48 AM |
#201 |
 -
Yes, they are Clinton-workalikes. Same attitudes. |
Mairead |
Oct-22-03 08:57 AM |
#204 |
 -
sure, anyone else want to toss some out too? |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 10:09 AM |
#207 |
 -
or exhaustive (n/t) |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 10:09 AM |
#208 |
 -
Show us the numbers |
Mairead |
Oct-20-03 06:42 AM |
#127 |
-
If we had our druthers |
lapauvre |
Oct-20-03 10:06 PM |
#153 |
 -
"I voted for Nader last time. You see where it got us?" |
diamondsoul |
Oct-20-03 10:15 PM |
#154 |
-
Diamond, it was a protest vote, and |
lapauvre |
Oct-20-03 10:49 PM |
#156 |
 -
Please do not confuse the primaries and the general |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Oct-21-03 10:51 AM |
#167 |
  -
But if you get your way in the primaries, |
library_max |
Oct-21-03 04:06 PM |
#177 |
 -
I think you should try supporting your claims |
Mairead |
Oct-21-03 04:15 PM |
#179 |
 -
To be perfectly correct |
Padraig18 |
Oct-21-03 04:27 PM |
#181 |
  -
Perhaps you should re-read the post to which I responded, and |
Mairead |
Oct-21-03 04:43 PM |
#183 |
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I get the feeling... |
Padraig18 |
Oct-21-03 05:13 PM |
#184 |
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how about U.S. history? |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 07:22 AM |
#192 |
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Just had to ask you about one part of this post... |
redqueen |
Oct-22-03 12:05 PM |
#213 |
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no, I'm sorry, that's not what I mean |
peaceandjustice |
Oct-22-03 03:23 PM |
#217 |
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Logic, common sense, and experience |
library_max |
Oct-22-03 11:07 AM |
#210 |
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Of course you have the right to fear. |
diamondsoul |
Oct-21-03 04:38 PM |
#182 |
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I voted for Nader, TWICE, because he was the best Democrat in the race |
no name no slogan |
Oct-21-03 05:25 PM |
#186 |
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Is Al Sharpton unelectible? |
CWebster |
Oct-22-03 07:43 AM |
#194 |
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No, Al is not unelectable. |
Mairead |
Oct-22-03 08:49 AM |
#202 |
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Incoming! |
Padraig18 |
Oct-22-03 08:49 AM |
#203 |
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Hi There! (My first post) |
redqueen |
Oct-22-03 11:32 AM |
#211 |
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Welcome to DU, redqueen! |
Lydia Leftcoast |
Oct-22-03 12:25 PM |
#214 |