frogfromthenorth2
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Thu Jan-08-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #87 |
| 137. Here is my answer...sorry for the wait... |
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It's impossible to discover the intent behind the second Amendment without looking at the historical context surrounding its adoption. Nine States were necessary to ratify the Constitution. The control of the militia was a big point of discussion between Madisson and Masson. Militia was essential, for the South, to control, the slaves. The way the text was written at that point gave control to all militias to Congress. The South knew that the North wasn't "comfortable" with the idea of slavery. Loosing the control of the militia meant loosing control of the slaves.
Madison, who was first against the ratification of the Bill of Right but finally became one of the architect of the 2nd Amendment.
The English Bill of Rights of 1689 was the inspiration for the US Bill of Rights. But they were mostly guided by the balance of power between the South and the North. One author, Carl T. Bogus, says that the main motivation wasn't "protection against tyranny" but the assurance that the South could keep control over the slaves. When you read the 2nd Amendment with that historical context in mind, it's obvious that the "subject matter" is the militia, not the right for individuals to bear arm. It's interesting to note that this amendment is the only one who has a from of "preamble" to put the next affirmation in context. In a purely legal interpretation, such a preamble must be seen as a restriction to the scope of that Amendment. Clearly, it's the State right that is clearly protected. It address the concerns that the States had about the control of the militia. It's also important to know what "militia" meant at the end of the XVIIIe century in the colonies. They were organized and controlled by the States.
|
| -Does the 2nd Amendment allow private gun ownership? |
Damndifino |
Jan-07-04 12:22 PM |
#0 |
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Constantly mis-defined |
Loonman |
Jan-07-04 12:26 PM |
#1 |
 -
It's the one amendment that the conservatives interpret liberally. |
The Backlash Cometh |
Jan-07-04 01:03 PM |
#20 |
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The founding fathers didn't write this in stone, they weren't gods |
billbuckhead |
Jan-07-04 12:26 PM |
#2 |
 -
You're right |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 01:00 PM |
#18 |
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maybe yes maybe no but... |
lib13 |
Jan-07-04 12:28 PM |
#3 |
 -
In the early documents, the writers discussed exactly that. |
cspiguy |
Jan-07-04 12:53 PM |
#13 |
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Heh. |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 01:10 PM |
#26 |
 -
One man, one rifle |
TheMiddleRoad |
Jan-08-04 02:37 AM |
#133 |
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LOL!!! |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-08-04 03:13 AM |
#134 |
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Ambiguity was necessary to get the Constitution ratified by all 13 |
heidler |
Jan-08-04 03:39 PM |
#153 |
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By that same line of reasoning... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-09-04 05:28 AM |
#159 |
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Private gun ownership is not allowed... |
Superfly |
Jan-07-04 12:30 PM |
#4 |
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In a word |
MrBenchley |
Jan-07-04 12:30 PM |
#5 |
 -
What does it say... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 01:18 PM |
#33 |
  -
It says that |
MrBenchley |
Jan-07-04 02:17 PM |
#45 |
 -
inbred supporters believe the Bill of Rights covers individuals? |
Liberal Classic |
Jan-07-04 01:23 PM |
#38 |
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What a pantload..... |
MrBenchley |
Jan-07-04 02:19 PM |
#46 |
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Then explain the recent Stewart ruling... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 07:19 PM |
#63 |
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It doesn't say anywhere what type of guns allowed |
Bandit |
Jan-07-04 12:33 PM |
#6 |
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Actually... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 01:16 PM |
#31 |
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Gun ownership is as enshrined in the constitution as the right to choose |
dkf |
Jan-07-04 12:33 PM |
#7 |
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It doesn't "allow" anything |
slackmaster |
Jan-07-04 12:39 PM |
#8 |
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Only Amendment to say "Well Regulated" |
Bandit |
Jan-07-04 12:47 PM |
#10 |
  -
You're entitled to believe whatever bizarre spin you like |
slackmaster |
Jan-07-04 12:52 PM |
#12 |
   -
See Post # 6 |
Bandit |
Jan-07-04 12:56 PM |
#16 |
  -
remember |
Terwilliger |
Jan-07-04 01:01 PM |
#19 |
  -
"Well regulated" meant "well trained" -- able to behave in a well-defined |
Mairead |
Jan-07-04 01:44 PM |
#43 |
 -
take it for what it's worth... |
d_ashley |
Jan-07-04 12:51 PM |
#11 |
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Practical problems with this scenario? |
Gwendolayn |
Jan-07-04 01:48 PM |
#44 |
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i think the problem rests... |
d_ashley |
Jan-07-04 04:19 PM |
#49 |
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Sigh |
vpigrad |
Jan-07-04 12:44 PM |
#9 |
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WTF - "subjects"? |
slackmaster |
Jan-07-04 12:54 PM |
#14 |
  -
Nit-picking |
vpigrad |
Jan-07-04 01:04 PM |
#21 |
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No it is NOT nit-picking |
slackmaster |
Jan-07-04 01:13 PM |
#27 |
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"If you can't go to school, go to Tech!" |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 01:20 PM |
#35 |
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Read the constitution |
theboss |
Jan-09-04 01:28 PM |
#170 |
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Define "official capacities". |
YNGW |
Jan-07-04 12:55 PM |
#15 |
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Welcome to DU, vpigrad |
Terwilliger |
Jan-07-04 01:07 PM |
# |
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It depends. |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 12:59 PM |
#17 |
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I still can't smoke my pot |
Terwilliger |
Jan-07-04 01:06 PM |
#23 |
  -
The prohibition against you smoking pot is unconstitutional |
slackmaster |
Jan-07-04 01:14 PM |
#28 |
  -
And here I thought most states had criminalized pot.... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 01:25 PM |
#39 |
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Introductory clause or context? |
Damndifino |
Jan-07-04 01:21 PM |
#37 |
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Not without changing the constitution... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 01:40 PM |
#42 |
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It's not my analogy, but still... |
Damndifino |
Jan-07-04 02:24 PM |
#47 |
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It's too bad... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 07:27 PM |
#64 |
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I counted one qualifier |
Damndifino |
Jan-08-04 11:42 AM |
#141 |
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If mamma wore army boots... |
hansberrym |
Jan-07-04 09:25 PM |
#114 |
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"the right of people to keep and bare arms" i want my ICBM damn it! |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Jan-07-04 01:04 PM |
#22 |
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"the right of people to keep and bare arms"...I want my ICBM damn it! |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Jan-07-04 01:07 PM |
#24 |
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That's BEAR arms |
slackmaster |
Jan-07-04 01:15 PM |
#29 |
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i perfer bare arms....it is much cooerl |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Jan-07-04 01:17 PM |
#32 |
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"cooerl".... humm... are you drunk by any chance? ....lol |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-07-04 01:20 PM |
#36 |
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hehehe....would you like a glass of some chardonay? |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Jan-07-04 01:34 PM |
#41 |
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Great - My favorite American subjet.... the second Amendment.... |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-07-04 01:07 PM |
#25 |
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If the constitution read, "The right to abortion shall not be infringed" |
RUexperienced |
Jan-07-04 01:15 PM |
#30 |
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If any of you can read FRENCH, I wrote an article this summer about the |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-07-04 01:20 PM |
#34 |
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I'm interested in how you reached that conclusion... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 01:31 PM |
#40 |
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Of course it's a LUDICROUS concept for everyone else . . . |
NavajoRug |
Jan-07-04 08:49 PM |
#105 |
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THAT IS LUDICROUS!!! The best example is that |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-08-04 07:43 AM |
#136 |
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Your points are valid, but consider this . . . |
NavajoRug |
Jan-08-04 07:08 PM |
#156 |
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I'm not for outlawing guns, but |
Pithlet |
Jan-08-04 01:42 PM |
#143 |
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Look at what those "snipers" in the D.C. area . . . |
NavajoRug |
Jan-08-04 07:12 PM |
#157 |
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Yes, it does, OBVIOUSLY |
WhoCountsTheVotes |
Jan-07-04 02:27 PM |
#48 |
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The Second Amendment simply protects |
MysticMind |
Jan-07-04 04:45 PM |
#50 |
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Bzzzz....WRONG!!! |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 07:32 PM |
#65 |
  -
the 2nd Amendment specifically mentions states |
MysticMind |
Jan-08-04 09:09 AM |
#138 |
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Please cite... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-08-04 11:27 AM |
#139 |
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you're misreading what I'm saying |
MysticMind |
Jan-08-04 01:18 PM |
#142 |
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If that were the case |
Columbia |
Jan-08-04 01:54 PM |
#144 |
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That's "Army" |
Damndifino |
Jan-08-04 02:06 PM |
#145 |
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A Right of the People |
Columbia |
Jan-08-04 02:19 PM |
#146 |
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I think tetchiness is getting the upper hand here |
Damndifino |
Jan-08-04 02:37 PM |
#147 |
  -
Negative |
Columbia |
Jan-08-04 02:46 PM |
#148 |
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So my one remaining question is, |
Damndifino |
Jan-08-04 02:53 PM |
#150 |
  -
It's up to you |
Columbia |
Jan-08-04 03:00 PM |
#151 |
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It's not up to me |
Damndifino |
Jan-08-04 03:16 PM |
#152 |
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There are many ways legal immigrants |
Columbia |
Jan-08-04 03:48 PM |
#154 |
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I'm not an immigrant either |
Damndifino |
Jan-09-04 11:47 AM |
#163 |
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To bear arms is an undefined term |
Bandit |
Jan-09-04 12:26 PM |
#167 |
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Do they really have that power? |
Damndifino |
Jan-09-04 12:32 PM |
#168 |
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I want to order me a bunker busting nuke |
Bandit |
Jan-09-04 01:13 PM |
#169 |
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So what's to stop the government... |
Damndifino |
Jan-09-04 02:14 PM |
#171 |
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Not quite... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-09-04 06:34 PM |
#175 |
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Fear of the people |
Damndifino |
Jan-08-04 02:48 PM |
#149 |
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Amen! |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-07-04 07:34 PM |
#67 |
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Regardless.... |
deseo |
Jan-07-04 04:55 PM |
#51 |
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i don't think people need to own m-16's and machine guns to hunt deer |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Jan-07-04 05:34 PM |
#52 |
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Nice Straw Man you have erected there, ED |
slackmaster |
Jan-07-04 05:49 PM |
#53 |
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they didn't question it because they didn't exist then |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Jan-07-04 07:36 PM |
#69 |
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LOL!!!! |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:41 PM |
#100 |
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first post |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 06:17 PM |
#55 |
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the internet allows one to better express opinion |
rman |
Jan-07-04 06:21 PM |
#56 |
  -
M16s (and AR-15s) make good deer rifles |
jmowreader |
Jan-07-04 06:34 PM |
#58 |
   -
I agree |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 06:37 PM |
#60 |
   -
i do believe it is ILLEGAL to hunt with your perfered weapon |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Jan-07-04 07:42 PM |
#74 |
  -
my analogy does hold |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 06:34 PM |
#59 |
   -
LOL........swat a fly with a nuke |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Jan-07-04 07:45 PM |
#78 |
  -
Sorry.... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 07:37 PM |
#70 |
 -
No |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 07:50 PM |
#79 |
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The First Amendment: |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:02 PM |
#83 |
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I do not like the Interstate Commerce clause |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 08:05 PM |
#85 |
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Au contraire... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:10 PM |
#88 |
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I am familiar with Lopez I think |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 08:15 PM |
#89 |
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I don't have a link.... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:19 PM |
#90 |
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LOL talk about a "strawman"!!! oh and for your info ..the internet is NOT |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Jan-07-04 07:39 PM |
#71 |
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No the internet is not an arms |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 07:56 PM |
#82 |
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What's wrong with legally owning machineguns? |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 07:33 PM |
#66 |
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Nothing at all |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 07:52 PM |
#81 |
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Psssttt... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:03 PM |
#84 |
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Nor do I... |
deseo |
Jan-07-04 08:28 PM |
#95 |
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I collect them... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:29 PM |
#96 |
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It is law-abiding... |
deseo |
Jan-07-04 08:41 PM |
#101 |
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One violent crime commission = no guns ever |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 08:45 PM |
#104 |
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Yup, yup... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:52 PM |
#107 |
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I believe |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 08:55 PM |
#108 |
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No, he did. |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:56 PM |
#109 |
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outright prohibition would go to far imo |
rman |
Jan-07-04 06:13 PM |
#54 |
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the people |
methinks2 |
Jan-07-04 06:30 PM |
#57 |
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Protection from govt would be impossible |
LincolnMcGrath |
Jan-07-04 06:58 PM |
#62 |
  -
Seems to be working for the Iraqis. |
Cat Atomic |
Jan-07-04 07:36 PM |
#68 |
   -
We could completely DE-populate Iraq in a week. |
LincolnMcGrath |
Jan-07-04 07:42 PM |
#73 |
  -
I never understood that lame argument before either.... |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-07-04 07:43 PM |
#75 |
  -
Uh huh....then why haven't we? |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:07 PM |
#86 |
  -
Thats just silly! |
LincolnMcGrath |
Jan-07-04 08:30 PM |
#97 |
  -
Ahhh...So the dead ATF guys... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:38 PM |
#99 |
  -
Puh-LEESE!!!! mellow out |
LincolnMcGrath |
Jan-07-04 08:56 PM |
#110 |
  -
Uhhh...did I miss something... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 07:51 PM |
#80 |
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B.S. |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-07-04 07:44 PM |
#77 |
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B.S.....Really? then who ARE the people? |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:08 PM |
#87 |
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Here is my answer...sorry for the wait... |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-08-04 08:18 AM |
#137 |
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Isn't Bogus.... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-09-04 05:42 AM |
#160 |
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Well, the Supreme Court said in Miller.. |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-09-04 07:42 AM |
#162 |
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So... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-09-04 12:04 PM |
#165 |
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COLT has done a fine job of |
LincolnMcGrath |
Jan-07-04 06:53 PM |
#61 |
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Ah. a Bellesiles supporter.... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 07:40 PM |
#72 |
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You know their political leanings? |
LincolnMcGrath |
Jan-07-04 08:23 PM |
#91 |
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Isn't Emory seen as a generally "liberal" school? |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:25 PM |
#93 |
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Well of course, all US colleges are Liberal |
LincolnMcGrath |
Jan-07-04 08:36 PM |
#98 |
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If it was a conservative school.... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:43 PM |
#102 |
-
I knew it! |
LincolnMcGrath |
Jan-07-04 08:58 PM |
#111 |
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Ummm....Am I missing something? |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 09:31 PM |
#115 |
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Dupe...sorry 'bout that... |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-07-04 08:26 PM |
#94 |
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yes ... |
number6 |
Jan-07-04 07:43 PM |
#76 |
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of course, don't be silly |
arewethereyet |
Jan-07-04 08:24 PM |
#92 |
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The 2nd Amendment protects a citizen's right to keep and bear arms . . . |
NavajoRug |
Jan-07-04 08:44 PM |
#103 |
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I prefer... |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 08:50 PM |
#106 |
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Not many people who live more than 20 miles from D.C. . . . |
NavajoRug |
Jan-07-04 09:00 PM |
#112 |
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That is sad... |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 09:21 PM |
#113 |
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I agree with you. I was simply pointing out . . . |
NavajoRug |
Jan-07-04 09:35 PM |
#116 |
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given their weapons related murder rate, I wouldn't say effective |
arewethereyet |
Jan-07-04 09:43 PM |
#118 |
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Exactly |
jeremy92fs |
Jan-07-04 09:47 PM |
#119 |
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Alright folks... |
ZombyWoof |
Jan-07-04 09:36 PM |
#117 |
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This is MUCH nicer than any J/PS thread |
slackmaster |
Jan-08-04 06:10 AM |
#135 |
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got yer coffee! |
ZombyWoof |
Jan-09-04 02:30 PM |
#172 |
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If you don't mind... I would like you to take a peek at this and |
frogfromthenorth2 |
Jan-09-04 02:35 PM |
#173 |
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Depends who you ask... |
Printer70 |
Jan-07-04 11:50 PM |
#120 |
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Depends what question you ask... |
hansberrym |
Jan-08-04 12:23 AM |
#122 |
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It is a GIVEN... |
hansberrym |
Jan-08-04 12:06 AM |
#121 |
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"Givens" and "Conditionals" are not mutually exclusive |
Damndifino |
Jan-08-04 11:39 AM |
#140 |
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You can't be serious |
hansberrym |
Jan-08-04 05:49 PM |
#155 |
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I can be serious and am |
Damndifino |
Jan-09-04 11:54 AM |
#164 |
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You might consider that the other amendments of the US Bill of Rights... |
hansberrym |
Jan-09-04 06:24 PM |
#174 |
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I thought that the 2nd Amendment... |
Lestat de Lioncourt |
Jan-08-04 12:31 AM |
#123 |
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The Revolution |
Columbia |
Jan-08-04 12:59 AM |
#124 |
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well ,t he SCOTUS did rul on this |
booley |
Jan-08-04 01:07 AM |
#125 |
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A few considerations |
Columbia |
Jan-08-04 01:40 AM |
#127 |
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you're sort-of right. |
DoNotRefill |
Jan-08-04 02:08 AM |
#130 |
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Nope. |
Buzzz |
Jan-08-04 01:15 AM |
#126 |
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You are incorrect |
Columbia |
Jan-08-04 01:55 AM |
#128 |
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It's the interpretation I *prefer* however, its a lie to claim ...... |
Selwynn |
Jan-08-04 02:07 AM |
#129 |
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Well, you are half-right... |
hansberrym |
Jan-08-04 07:17 PM |
#158 |
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Folks, the National Guard IS NOT the militia. |
Elwood P Dowd |
Jan-08-04 02:08 AM |
#131 |
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YES |
TheMiddleRoad |
Jan-08-04 02:30 AM |
#132 |
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Does the 1st am. allow computer ownership? |
Mr.Green93 |
Jan-09-04 06:35 AM |
#161 |
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Does not matter that much |
GRClarkesq |
Jan-09-04 12:06 PM |
#166 |