You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Reply #48: I Disagree, But Good Points, Eloriel [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
LoneStarLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-03 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
48. I Disagree, But Good Points, Eloriel
While I do not concur, you raise good points.

Yesterday with Wolf Blitzer, he blatantly insisted that we need a military man -- a CINC -- to protect us in this day and age. I frankly reject that. We need to DEmilitarize this nation.

I would like to point out here at anyone who becomes President is also CINC. Any President is going to have the role of CINC regardless of his or her views.

Not only that, but it sinks to the level of demagoguery: playing on people's fears to gain support. That's what Bush has done, and it's unsettling in the extreme to find it in a Dem candidate.

With all due respect, I really don't see this in Clark's rhetoric. One of the reasons I've always been in Clark's corner is that his message consistently has a message of hope to it; that's fundamentally what the whole platform of "A New American Patriotism" rests upon.

Finally, if he's sincere -- that is, if he himself believes that -- then I'm all the more unsettled and would worry about someone who (a) sees the world thru a military lens and (b) believes only a military person can handle things right now and (c) is that fearful himself (which would certainly make him prone to all those military solutions at his disposal).

I do believe that there is a very subtle but grossly ignored difference in leadership and military leadership. Wes Clark has exhibited both, both during his time in the military and since his military career ended. There is a very important component to leadership that does not consist of following orders by rote from higher up, a component that urges you to take care of your people, be they your troopers or your fellow citizens. It's very possible to have both of these and exhibit both of these in the military.

No, even aside from his questionable ties, Clark is not the man for the job.

I understand and appreciate your reasoning because I arrive at the same conclusion about Howard Dean, John Kerry, Richard Gephardt, Dennis Kucinich, Al Sharpton, Caroline Mosely-Braun, John Edwards, and Joe Lieberman when I look at each of them and apply my criteria to them.

With defeating George Bush in 2004 as the ultimate litmus test of the Democratic nominee, I sincerely believe that Wes Clark is the best candidate to do that not simply because "he can beat Bush," but because he offers a better alternative to Bush that I simply do not see the other candidates offering.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
  -Why I continue to be very uneasy about Clark Eloriel  Dec-01-03 04:10 PM   #0 
  - Why I feel uneasy about Dean.....  mmonk   Dec-01-03 04:12 PM   #1 
  - Bringing up another candidate in defense of your own  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 04:14 PM   # 
  - Attacking another candidate  mmonk   Dec-01-03 04:29 PM   #19 
     - I dont see it as an attack  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 04:34 PM   #25 
        - In fairness to Eloriel  Tom Rinaldo   Dec-01-03 04:38 PM   #30 
        - Well, there's already a couple more anti-Clark Eloriel threads  sgr2   Dec-01-03 09:31 PM   #118 
        - I've explained many times  mmonk   Dec-01-03 06:24 PM   #88 
           - Leave it to ADJHS to turn this thread into a tit for tat  Scott Lee   Dec-01-03 07:45 PM   #103 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-01-03 04:54 PM   #45 
  - childish?  mmonk   Dec-01-03 06:27 PM   #89 
  - Why I totally dislike Dean....  familydoctor   Dec-01-03 06:39 PM   #93 
  - LOL  PSU84   Dec-01-03 09:30 PM   #117 
  - "playing on people's fears to gain support"  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 04:13 PM   #2 
  - With respect to correlating conservative politics and personality  HereSince1628   Dec-01-03 04:40 PM   #33 
  - I think he is trying to  La_Serpiente   Dec-01-03 04:13 PM   #3 
  - Why should you feel uneasy?  neuvocat   Dec-01-03 04:14 PM   #4 
  - What scares me  Demobrat   Dec-01-03 04:14 PM   #5 
  - Often it's those that have been in combat that use force as a last resort  Richardo   Dec-01-03 04:17 PM   #7 
  - So how do you explain Eisenhower???????  bobbieinok   Dec-01-03 04:22 PM   #8 
  - I never got near the military  Tom Rinaldo   Dec-01-03 04:22 PM   #9 
  - He wants peace...  tinrobot   Dec-01-03 04:23 PM   #11 
  - Military is not pro-war  jmaier   Dec-01-03 04:26 PM   #15 
  - Please don't tell me  jokerman2004   Dec-01-03 04:31 PM   #22 
  - Didn't he lose his command  Demobrat   Dec-01-03 04:36 PM   #28 
     - No  Tummler   Dec-01-03 04:49 PM   #41 
     - He lost his command  mikehiggins   Dec-01-03 04:52 PM   #43 
     - That's kind of a badly mangled version. Short answer: No  Tom Rinaldo   Dec-01-03 04:59 PM   #52 
        - So in other words, yes,  Demobrat   Dec-01-03 05:03 PM   #54 
           - No, he did not.  Tom Rinaldo   Dec-01-03 05:17 PM   #61 
  - Where's the logic to your question?  Kahuna   Dec-01-03 04:53 PM   #44 
  - He does not want peace  Pastiche423   Dec-01-03 05:14 PM   #59 
     - A piece from a recent Clark speech on foreign policy  Jim4Wes   Dec-01-03 06:00 PM   #76 
  - Missing his points  ignatiusr   Dec-01-03 04:17 PM   #6 
  - I think that  La_Serpiente   Dec-01-03 04:23 PM   #10 
  - Interesting strategy that Clark is undertaking here  DancingBear   Dec-01-03 04:24 PM   #12 
  - I think compassionate, intelligent humans  cally   Dec-01-03 04:26 PM   #13 
  - Sad That These Posts Continue  Justice   Dec-01-03 04:26 PM   #14 
  - I disagree  arewethereyet   Dec-01-03 08:29 PM   #106 
  - as a clark supporter  TexasPatriot   Dec-01-03 04:27 PM   #16 
  - I concur Eloriel  Closer   Dec-01-03 04:27 PM   #17 
  - Your attitude is one of the reasons Democrats  rumguy   Dec-01-03 04:33 PM   #24 
  - Yo! Black Female here...Since you know how all of his supporters  xultar   Dec-01-03 04:47 PM   # 
     - Do you know how to read?  Closer   Dec-01-03 04:50 PM   #42 
     - Another one over here! Draw a conclusion from this!  Kahuna   Dec-01-03 04:55 PM   #49 
        - I have Kahuna  Closer   Dec-01-03 04:57 PM   #50 
           - Isn't is past your nap time?  Kahuna   Dec-01-03 05:32 PM   #69 
              - Hey  Closer   Dec-01-03 05:49 PM   #72 
  - Female  LouisFC   Dec-01-03 05:27 PM   #66 
  - HEY!  knight_of_the_star   Dec-01-03 06:15 PM   #85 
  - accidental dupe  Closer   Dec-01-03 04:28 PM   #18 
  - *snarf*  cally   Dec-01-03 04:32 PM   #23 
     - When did I say "all"  Closer   Dec-01-03 04:37 PM   #29 
        - I know you said most  cally   Dec-01-03 04:47 PM   #38 
           - me too  bobbieinok   Dec-01-03 06:17 PM   # 
              - Me, too, all those things  Jerseycoa   Dec-01-03 08:23 PM   #105 
                 - Count me as a Women for Clark member ...  Field Of Dreams   Dec-01-03 09:14 PM   #115 
  - His "military lens" is very wide.  sarah4clark04   Dec-01-03 04:30 PM   #20 
  - short answer...  NewYorkerfromMass   Dec-01-03 04:31 PM   #21 
  - Go Here  Jerseycoa   Dec-01-03 04:35 PM   #26 
  - Clark is "onside" with the NWO's Terror War  RBHam   Dec-01-03 04:36 PM   #27 
  - What Are You Saying?  Justice   Dec-01-03 04:40 PM   #32 
     - bin Laden is a boogeyman, the War On terror is a myth  RBHam   Dec-01-03 07:34 PM   #100 
  - Another thread that does nothing to enhance the discussion but  neverforget   Dec-01-03 04:38 PM   #31 
  - Another anti-CLark  BillyBunter   Dec-01-03 04:42 PM   #34 
  - Indeed.  neuvocat   Dec-01-03 04:43 PM   #36 
  - and your post is substantive how?  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 04:45 PM   #37 
  - accidental dupe  Closer   Dec-01-03 04:47 PM   #39 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-01-03 04:47 PM   #40 
  - Hehe  Eloriel   Dec-01-03 05:10 PM   #57 
     - Good To Know You Post For the Reaction Not the Substance  Justice   Dec-01-03 05:12 PM   #58 
     - That shows exactly the kind of twisted logic of the Clarkites  Eloriel   Dec-01-03 08:31 PM   #109 
        - More baloney from you, Eloriel  eleny   Dec-01-03 10:40 PM   #135 
     - The hypocrisy here  Closer   Dec-01-03 05:16 PM   #60 
     - Two Wrongs Don't Make A Right  Justice   Dec-01-03 05:27 PM   #64 
     - There you go again.  Eloriel   Dec-01-03 09:44 PM   #122 
     - I was one that complained about that thread and I was...  oxymoron   Dec-01-03 06:07 PM   #83 
     - You're not talking about me, right?  Tom Rinaldo   Dec-01-03 05:19 PM   #62 
  - To your statement "..., Clark is not the man for the job." I say  retread   Dec-01-03 04:42 PM   #35 
  - So let me get this straight....  xultar   Dec-01-03 04:54 PM   #46 
  - Clark is The Man for The Job --  Justice   Dec-01-03 04:54 PM   #47 
  - I Disagree, But Good Points, Eloriel  LoneStarLiberal   Dec-01-03 04:54 PM   #48 
  - Ah, no...  wyldwolf   Dec-01-03 04:58 PM   #51 
  - You managed to get a very diverse headcount of Clarkies...  Kahuna   Dec-01-03 05:00 PM   #53 
  - This is why I don't buy that even though I am not FOR anyone yet  nothingshocksmeanymore   Dec-01-03 05:06 PM   #55 
  - *Yawn* - What an old dried up ploy  eleny   Dec-01-03 05:09 PM   #56 
  - you gotta be kidding me  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 05:22 PM   #63 
     - Well then she might stop this kind of silly posting  eleny   Dec-01-03 05:27 PM   #65 
        - what's wrong with that?  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 05:30 PM   #67 
        - This is absolutely  Pastiche423   Dec-01-03 05:31 PM   #68 
           - I'll tell you why this tactic gets me riled up  eleny   Dec-01-03 05:42 PM   #70 
              - I'd be willing to bet  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 05:46 PM   #71 
              - Seems like going after Clark supporters is your thing  eleny   Dec-01-03 06:04 PM   #78 
                 - touchy touchy  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 06:06 PM   #82 
                    - Not touchy - I'm angry  eleny   Dec-01-03 06:16 PM   #86 
              - It isn't a tactic to me  Pastiche423   Dec-01-03 06:11 PM   #84 
  - The reason you continue to be uneasy is that you are wholly for Dean  jpgray   Dec-01-03 05:51 PM   #73 
  - I'm not a Dean supporter  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 06:00 PM   #75 
     - I don't know, perhaps it is similar to mine  jpgray   Dec-01-03 06:06 PM   #79 
        - For the record  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 06:17 PM   #87 
           - Who would be your ideal candidate?  Kahuna   Dec-01-03 09:28 PM   #116 
              - My ideal candidate doesn't exist  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 09:36 PM   #121 
  - do you write for the Nation?  Cocoa   Dec-01-03 05:57 PM   #74 
  - The "concerned undecided" camouflage is widely used for negative threads  jpgray   Dec-01-03 06:00 PM   #77 
  - But you believe Dean's 11 month old populism is sincere.  blm   Dec-01-03 06:06 PM   #80 
  - True, but...  gulliver   Dec-01-03 06:06 PM   #81 
  - I support him because of his military experience  Nashyra   Dec-01-03 06:37 PM   #92 
  - I wonder what aspects of Republican policy attracted Clark in  Dover   Dec-01-03 06:36 PM   #90 
  - Your post treats "Clark was a Republican" as fact and it is not...  wyldwolf   Dec-01-03 06:37 PM   #91 
  - He wasn't a republican  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 06:41 PM   #94 
     - He voted for three presidential candidates - one twice  Pastiche423   Dec-01-03 06:43 PM   #95 
     - Right. He voted for Bill Clinton twice...  wyldwolf   Dec-01-03 07:31 PM   #98 
        - No it isn't  Pastiche423   Dec-01-03 08:51 PM   #111 
     - As Michael Moore said...  wyldwolf   Dec-01-03 07:32 PM   #99 
        - most of America was wrong to do so  Forkboy   Dec-01-03 08:29 PM   #107 
  - Dean Just Praised Bush Sr.'s Foreign Policy W/Tweety  cryingshame   Dec-01-03 07:37 PM   #101 
     - No. she'll probably say...  wyldwolf   Dec-01-03 07:39 PM   #102 
  - I know what you mean.  PSU84   Dec-01-03 06:45 PM   #96 
  - Clark supporter here...  Frenchie4Clark   Dec-01-03 07:14 PM   #97 
  - Question...  rumguy   Dec-01-03 10:03 PM   #126 
  - Questions of the day  mmonk   Dec-01-03 07:49 PM   #104 
  - So you feel uneasy about someone who won the medal of freedom and  xultar   Dec-01-03 08:31 PM   #108 
  - Well I'm uneasy about Dean playing up the negatives to...  PROGRESSIVE1   Dec-01-03 08:32 PM   #110 
  - ditto  mumishka   Dec-01-03 08:54 PM   #112 
  - I am comfortable with Clark. I am happy with Clark. I like Clark.  IndianaGreen   Dec-01-03 08:57 PM   #113 
  - I never would have thought  Pastiche423   Dec-01-03 09:45 PM   #123 
  - Dean won't shut down the School of the Americas  WhoCountsTheVotes   Dec-01-03 09:56 PM   #124 
  - I understand where Clark was coming from  IndianaGreen   Dec-01-03 10:06 PM   #129 
     - clark spoke to the graduates  Pastiche423   Dec-01-03 11:04 PM   #136 
  - Clark's 1st take on IWR: "I probably would have supported it"  NewYorkerfromMass   Dec-01-03 10:02 PM   #125 
     - But only on the condition  mmonk   Dec-01-03 10:06 PM   #131 
     - Kerry had a chance to vote against IWR, and he chose war.  IndianaGreen   Dec-01-03 10:09 PM   #132 
        - History will show that both Bush and Saddam chose war  NewYorkerfromMass   Dec-01-03 10:22 PM   #134 
  - You have hit on my unease  Egnever   Dec-01-03 09:03 PM   #114 
  - Yes, wait and see.  mmonk   Dec-01-03 09:34 PM   #120 
  - What a big fucking suprise from you  Clark Can WIN   Dec-01-03 09:32 PM   #119 
  - your signature flasher doesn't mention  arewethereyet   Dec-01-03 10:04 PM   #127 
  - Hahaha!  incapsulated   Dec-01-03 10:04 PM   #128 
  - If you honestly think this race won't be run with fear as one of the main  Shakespeare   Dec-01-03 10:06 PM   #130 
     - Dean can't convince on Security..  webkev   Dec-01-03 10:14 PM   #133 

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC