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Reply #128: I just read a link describing institutionalized torture [View All]

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-25-03 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
128. I just read a link describing institutionalized torture
in the Pinochet regime, referring to two torturers there who were graduates of the School of the Americas.

I thought immediately of having read this thread, and many of the superior posts.

Here's the post containing the link:

Say_What (1000+ posts) Wed Nov-26-03 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #19

20. Villa Grimaldi and the SOA...

Kissinger and Pinochet--war criminals who should be in prison.


Witnesses to Atrocity

...Luis Santibaez, President of the Parque por la Paz Corporation until 2003, was one of the architects who designed the Parque por la Paz.
Atrocities were committed in Pisagua but in Villa Grimaldi atrocity was the system. It was not that atrocities were sometimes committed. Torture was the daily system within that atrocity. The functionaries who participated at Villa Grimaldi were trained torturers, trained at the School of the Americas. We have discovered that the method of atrocity was neither casual nor the result of rage or madness. What has impressed us most is that they considered it normal and routine. What they were doing was good and they did it for the sake of the country.

Facile explanations arise to produce oblivion, to avoid confronting things. They say, "someone just went too far," or "this was the work of madmen." Or it was the consequence of the climate of convulsion produced by the Popular Unity government. Therefore, those who produced the convulsion are to blame. Those are all easy justifications intended to avoid the truth. The truth is that Villa Grimaldi was not the result of a few excesses or madness. It was a system.

Rodrigo Del Villar was imprisoned at Villa Grimaldi four months, beginning in January 1975.
Villa Grimaldi was a place of experimentation. They started out brutally, and then the guys began to learn how to do their jobs better. Torture was not sophisticated. There is nothing sophisticated about making someone stick his head in a plastic bag. The method was so elementary, that when the United Nations inspectors came, it was easy to conceal what was going on there.

The torturers concealed their own identity as well as the identity of each prisoner. The main thing was that the prisoner was no longer a person. We were all given numbers - mine was 83 - and we were always called by those numbers, never by our names. The intent was to deprive us of our individual personalities. The aim was to transform you into a substance that could be easily managed. I think that was part of the policy behind making people disappear. If you are only a number, it is easier to make you disappear. It was not an individual who disappeared; only a number disappeared. Stripping a person's identity was part of the plan of extermination.

For a collection of narratives by and about former prisoners of Villa Grimaldi see

(Written by one of the guests of honor. I would imagine he knows what he's talking about!)
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  -School of Americas is CLOSED 12/15/2000--Rebuttal xultar  Nov-25-03 10:00 AM   #0 
  - They won't give up  mmonk   Nov-25-03 10:01 AM   #1 
  - Actually, it wasn't closed, it was just renamed again in 2001 . . .  ET Awful   Nov-25-03 10:06 AM   #2 
  - Ok under it's new name there are Democratic and Republican  xultar   Nov-25-03 10:11 AM   #5 
     - So you LIED about the school being shut down  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:21 AM   #12 
  - The school is NOT closed  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:07 AM   #3 
  - intent  mmonk   Nov-25-03 10:09 AM   #4 
  - Oh come on, we're not stupid - it was renamed!  WhoCountsTheVotes   Nov-25-03 10:12 AM   #6 
  - Did Clark  mmonk   Nov-25-03 10:13 AM   #7 
  - intent  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:20 AM   #11 
  - Based on?  mmonk   Nov-25-03 10:22 AM   # 
     - It was just this last weekend that people protested there  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:30 AM   #16 
        - If any other candidates did some of the things Clark has....  TLM   Nov-25-03 11:49 AM   #59 
  - Nope, but he was OK with the school and said they do good work there.  TLM   Nov-25-03 11:45 AM   #58 
     - I think this post exposes you  mmonk   Nov-25-03 03:00 PM   #116 
        - Clark on SOA/WHISC -- From Tinoire's post below  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 03:13 PM   #117 
           - but what insinuations  mmonk   Nov-25-03 03:27 PM   #123 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-25-03 10:17 AM   #9 
     - a few rotteers?  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:19 AM   #10 
     - Prove Terwilliger- Produce The Syllabus  cryingshame   Nov-25-03 10:36 AM   #19 
        - The two military generals that overthrew Chavez attended the SOA  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:57 AM   #27 
        - Here's some details for you to start reconciling your denial...  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 11:03 AM   #33 
        - Great, many thanks for taking the time, IC. n/t  Stone_Spirits   Nov-25-03 11:14 AM   #38 
        - Once Again You Provide No Pertinent Facts- Just Usual Bullshit  cryingshame   Nov-25-03 11:20 AM   #40 
        - I don't give a shit about Clark with this!!!  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 11:27 AM   #45 
        - Do you have a link?  WoodrowFan   Nov-25-03 11:32 AM   #47 
           - Gladly. It's in my original post, but I'll repost it just for you...  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 11:34 AM   #50 
              - thanks  WoodrowFan   Nov-25-03 11:40 AM   #54 
        - No facts? He just gave you a book's worth of info on SOA  TLM   Nov-25-03 11:54 AM   #60 
        - But I didn't provide hard NUMBERS...  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 12:09 PM   #76 
           - You Are WRONG OF COURSE SO I'll Do The Work For You  cryingshame   Nov-25-03 12:47 PM   #92 
              - One last time, I'm not arguing about Clark  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 12:56 PM   #98 
        - Surprised you are not asleep yet  CWebster   Nov-25-03 01:03 PM   #101 
        - hmm..  leanings   Nov-25-03 11:27 AM   #44 
           - But American intervention has often helped it along  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 11:32 AM   #49 
              - I thought that sentence  leanings   Nov-25-03 12:00 PM   #64 
                 - why is that that the SOA produces all these bad people?  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 12:06 PM   # 
                    - How does it PRODUCE bad people?  leanings   Nov-25-03 01:08 PM   #104 
                       - there needs to be two things...  WoodrowFan   Nov-25-03 01:18 PM   #109 
        - Check this out  davekriss   Nov-25-03 11:44 AM   #57 
     - If Clark can't do anything, what good is he?  WhoCountsTheVotes   Nov-25-03 10:22 AM   #13 
        - Clark Is Actually Confronting The PNAC'ers  cryingshame   Nov-25-03 10:38 AM   #20 
           - Why would he confront PNACers when he supports American-based terrorists  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:58 AM   #28 
              - Here's the important difference, Terwilliger  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 03:21 PM   #120 
                 - great explanation - thanks  WhoCountsTheVotes   Nov-25-03 03:23 PM   #122 
  - Thanks  RobertSeattle   Nov-25-03 10:14 AM   #8 
  - professional murderers doing the bidding of Hank Kissinger and the like  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:27 AM   #15 
  - Please  leanings   Nov-25-03 10:47 AM   #24 
     - so you say  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:51 AM   #26 
        - Here's the course catalog  leanings   Nov-25-03 11:02 AM   #30 
           - Here's Bush's Compassion Agenda  Tinoire   Nov-25-03 11:05 AM   #34 
           - Ha! Way to show 'em, Tinoire  sangh0   Nov-25-03 11:08 AM   #35 
           - Do either of you have a relevant argument to make here?n/t  leanings   Nov-25-03 11:12 AM   #37 
              - The murderer's propoganda is probably the weakest defense  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 11:17 AM   #39 
                 - Thank you IC  sangh0   Nov-25-03 11:22 AM   #42 
                 - Who are "the murderer's"?  leanings   Nov-25-03 11:39 AM   #52 
                    - Asked and answered  sangh0   Nov-25-03 11:58 AM   #62 
                    - Intentionally obtuse, huh?  leanings   Nov-25-03 12:18 PM   #83 
                       - More straw men  sangh0   Nov-25-03 12:31 PM   #85 
                          - You are so lost.  leanings   Nov-25-03 12:50 PM   #95 
                             - fascinating!  sangh0   Nov-25-03 01:01 PM   #99 
                             - Now THAT'S the KING of strawmen!!!  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 01:02 PM   #100 
                                - You know,  leanings   Nov-25-03 01:11 PM   #105 
                                - Especially when you can't hit it because your head's in the sand  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 01:14 PM   #108 
                                - It's all he seems to know  sangh0   Nov-25-03 01:22 PM   #110 
                    - I thought we were supposed to be different here in America  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 11:59 AM   #63 
                    - I've had the same experiences, cool guy  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 12:03 PM   #70 
                       - Evidence points to the latter.  leanings   Nov-25-03 12:36 PM   #88 
                       - One more time, just for you  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 12:50 PM   #94 
                          - Intentionally oblivious  sangh0   Nov-25-03 01:03 PM   #102 
                          - I think I might have mentioned this too:  leanings   Nov-25-03 01:03 PM   #103 
                             - they have two  WoodrowFan   Nov-25-03 01:13 PM   #107 
                       - IC, concurrent to the support for the Contras  salin   Nov-25-03 12:54 PM   #96 
                          - Oscar Romero and the six American Catholic Nuns  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 01:12 PM   #106 
           - Counterdrug operations course  Ignoramus   Nov-25-03 11:48 PM   #129 
  - professional officers like noriega or thugs like rios montt  el_gato   Nov-25-03 10:46 AM   #23 
  - Some? Some bad apples? Would you mind naming some of the good apples?  Tinoire   Nov-25-03 11:03 AM   #32 
     - You're The One Who Can't Provide Numbers  cryingshame   Nov-25-03 11:23 AM   #43 
        - When SOA puts out the "bad seed catalogue"  sangh0   Nov-25-03 11:29 AM   #46 
        - Wow....  Tinoire   Nov-25-03 02:30 PM   #112 
  - NOT CLOSED! renamed Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation  ElsewheresDaughter   Nov-25-03 10:22 AM   #14 
  - Why don't all anti-Clark people  mmonk   Nov-25-03 10:31 AM   #17 
  - yes, but you're tweaked  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 10:36 AM   #18 
     - I was curious  mmonk   Nov-25-03 10:41 AM   #21 
        - no saint  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 11:03 AM   #31 
  - If the school- now renamed- is what you say....  Desertrose   Nov-25-03 10:46 AM   #22 
  - What year did Clark create the school?  mmonk   Nov-25-03 10:50 AM   #25 
     - He spoke there so he knew what the school was for  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 11:01 AM   #29 
     - You're right and wrong  sangh0   Nov-25-03 11:11 AM   #36 
        - Give me a break  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 11:32 AM   #48 
           - So do you support it  mmonk   Nov-25-03 11:39 AM   #53 
              - terwilliger certainly does  sangh0   Nov-25-03 12:01 PM   #67 
              - You are full of it  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 12:05 PM   #71 
              - Your tax $ support SOA  sangh0   Nov-25-03 12:34 PM   #86 
              - be fair now  WoodrowFan   Nov-25-03 12:06 PM   #74 
                 - ok, now you say look at it as if...  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 12:09 PM   #77 
                    - I didn't say they are all true  WoodrowFan   Nov-25-03 12:12 PM   #79 
                       - If Clark is worth anything, he knows all about the programs at the SOA  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 12:16 PM   #81 
                          - which could also suggest that the charges are untrue. (NT)  WoodrowFan   Nov-25-03 12:29 PM   #84 
                          - If Terwilliger's knows anything, he knows about the programs at the SOA  sangh0   Nov-25-03 12:37 PM   #89 
              - Yes I do!  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 12:03 PM   #69 
     - Does matter if he created it-- why was he there?  no name no slogan   Nov-25-03 12:01 PM   #66 
        - I haven't done enough research  democratreformed   Nov-25-03 12:09 PM   #78 
  - You should follow your own advise, xultar  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 11:21 AM   #41 
  - so what is the you think?  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 11:35 AM   #51 
     - America is acting just like any other historical power  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 11:41 AM   #56 
        - I'm sorry, isn't our Republic supposed to live by different standards?  Terwilliger   Nov-25-03 12:13 PM   #80 
           - "The price of liberty is eternal vigilance." -- Jefferson  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 12:17 PM   #82 
  - I don't believe this.  Colin Ex   Nov-25-03 11:40 AM   #55 
  - I won't defend that school  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-25-03 11:58 AM   #61 
  - If I may make a point --  Colin Ex   Nov-25-03 12:05 PM   #72 
     - You are more than reasonable  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-25-03 12:35 PM   #87 
  - OK  mmonk   Nov-25-03 12:01 PM   #65 
  - Great job addressing my point.  Colin Ex   Nov-25-03 12:06 PM   #73 
  - These are not progressives  TLM   Nov-25-03 12:02 PM   #68 
  - No progressive  mmonk   Nov-25-03 12:37 PM   #90 
  - No progressive would support NAFTA  sangh0   Nov-25-03 03:19 PM   #118 
  - Throwing rocks from Dean's glass house?  WhoCountsTheVotes   Nov-25-03 02:45 PM   #114 
  - Unfortunately I have had to back-peddle on that belief  Tinoire   Nov-25-03 03:22 PM   #121 
  - That's because they're either misguided, or not progressive  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 12:07 PM   #75 
     - I'm not defending the SOA  mmonk   Nov-25-03 12:42 PM   #91 
        - In that defense, I'll join you  IrateCitizen   Nov-25-03 12:48 PM   #93 
        - Attacking the SOA  Pastiche423   Nov-25-03 12:56 PM   #97 
  - Wow, hate to tell you what these aruments in defense of SOA  CWebster   Nov-25-03 01:48 PM   #111 
  - Your spin  mmonk   Nov-25-03 02:33 PM   #113 
  - Kucinich on School of the Americas. Posted for Crying Shame  Tinoire   Nov-25-03 02:53 PM   #115 
  -'re telling us to do the research yet,  buddhamama   Nov-25-03 03:19 PM   #119 
  - The official SOA speech from the Clark Web-site  Tinoire   Nov-25-03 03:36 PM   #124 
  - This is CRAZY  democratreformed   Nov-25-03 04:32 PM   #126 
     - It says "The Original Wesley Clark for President 2004 Website"  Tinoire   Nov-25-03 05:12 PM   #127 
  - I had a friend there last weekend  Ficus   Nov-25-03 04:29 PM   #125 
  - I just read a link describing institutionalized torture  JudiLyn   Nov-25-03 11:15 PM   #128 

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