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Reply #96: None of this has any bearing on [View All]

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Gringo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-24-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #95
96. None of this has any bearing on
the morality of using a doomsday weapon, since it's all pure spculation. The throngs jumping off cliff would have stopped jumping if the emperor told them to, if he'd have had a chance to surrender.

Most Japanese I know like America and are very grateful for America's postwar involvement. But I have never met a single Japanese person who thought that that bombing was just or necessary to force a surrender - not a single one. Also, most Japanese I know of are well aware of Nanking and other atrocities, and are bewildered at the LDP government's refusal to attempt to atone for them. It's as inexplicable as Koizumi's kowtowing to Bush RE the war in the face of a vast majority of Japanese being opposed to it.

I am grateful that none of the peoples we conquered in our murderous expansionistic phases ever used atomic bombs to level our cities, and then crow about how justified they were.
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  -The Hiroshima/Nagasaki Nuke attacks were: Gringo  Jul-23-03 12:27 AM   #0 
  - Hey thanks, freeper lurker for that  Gringo   Jul-23-03 12:43 AM   #1 
  - The Second One Was Inexcusable  OrdinaryTa   Jul-23-03 12:52 AM   #2 
  - Agreed. N/T  FlashHarry   Jul-23-03 07:04 AM   #11 
     - This should have been one of the choices  Mike_from_NoVa   Jul-23-03 07:13 AM   #12 
        - The first one can't be justified either.  Leftist78   Jul-26-03 02:28 PM   #185 
  - Leo Szilard, Interview: President Truman Did Not Understand  amen1234   Jul-23-03 12:59 AM   #3 
  - I have the Leo Szilard link and was just about to post it.  greatauntoftriplets   Jul-23-03 06:42 AM   #10 
  - Option #2 is closest to my views  redeye   Jul-23-03 01:02 AM   #4 
  - An abomination but an invasion of the Japanese mainland would  maveric   Jul-23-03 01:08 AM   #5 
  - That's a very good summation of the conventional wisdom  Gringo   Jul-23-03 01:25 AM   #6 
  - War  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-23-03 06:23 AM   #7 
     - In war  aneerkoinos   Jul-26-03 04:00 PM   #209 
        - What a quaint notion  Character Assassin   Jul-26-03 04:21 PM   #212 
        - we had WON  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 04:26 PM   #214 
        - quaint schmaint  aneerkoinos   Jul-26-03 05:01 PM   #217 
        - well said  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 04:23 PM   #213 
  - Japan had already offered to surrender  Kellanved   Jul-23-03 06:29 AM   #8 
     - The Bombs saved lives  kubi   Jul-23-03 06:41 AM   #9 
     - Don't Forget The Bataan Death March  DemocratSinceBirth   Jul-23-03 08:22 AM   #13 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-23-03 09:03 AM   #27 
     - In WWII, unconditional surrender was the only acceptable option  Walt Starr   Jul-23-03 09:07 AM   #31 
        - IMHO you are mistaken  Kellanved   Jul-23-03 09:34 AM   #37 
           - Please provide a reliable source for your assertions  Walt Starr   Jul-23-03 09:50 AM   #41 
           - Tons (not as outspoken though)  Kellanved   Jul-23-03 10:13 AM   #45 
              - This is the first I've ever heard of these assertions  Walt Starr   Jul-23-03 10:25 AM   #47 
              - That is the downside  Kellanved   Jul-23-03 11:13 AM   #61 
              - It's not the first I've heard of it...  Violet_Crumble   Jul-24-03 07:46 AM   #99 
              - That's not true  theboss   Jul-23-03 10:40 AM   #57 
           - I agree with unconditional surrender  Uzybone   Jul-26-03 02:12 PM   #179 
  - Necessary  Loonman   Jul-23-03 08:24 AM   #14 
  - This board is starting to freak me out  sgr2   Jul-23-03 08:26 AM   #15 
  - During The Bataan Death March Filipino  DemocratSinceBirth   Jul-23-03 08:37 AM   #16 
  - Yeah, I wonder what the fascination is  sgr2   Jul-23-03 08:39 AM   #17 
     - How do Japanese atrocities justify the bomb?  Violet_Crumble   Jul-24-03 07:56 AM   #100 
     - Apples and oranges  Leftist78   Jul-26-03 02:46 PM   #190 
  - Remember the Trail of Tears?  Sick of Bullshit   Jul-23-03 08:54 AM   #23 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-23-03 09:01 AM   #26 
  - President Jackson despite opposition by US Congress  ieoeja   Jul-23-03 02:56 PM   #85 
  - EXACTLY  Parche   Jul-23-03 01:15 PM   #77 
  - wow..necessary to win the war? people still believe that??  jonnyblitz   Jul-23-03 08:42 AM   #18 
  - What does that have to do with Repubs and Empire?  Loonman   Jul-23-03 08:45 AM   #19 
  - Britain was the empire. France was the empire.  Sick of Bullshit   Jul-23-03 08:58 AM   #24 
     - Victims  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-23-03 08:59 AM   #25 
     - Why not ask the people of the Congo whether Belgium was a good empire?  Sick of Bullshit   Jul-23-03 09:06 AM   #29 
        - Actually, for the people of Finland  aneerkoinos   Jul-26-03 04:35 PM   #215 
     - Soviet union was not an empire  JVS   Jul-23-03 10:26 AM   #49 
        - Czarist Russia was. n/t  maveric   Jul-23-03 12:07 PM   #66 
        - If the Soviet Union was not an empire,  Art_from_Ark   Jul-25-03 06:32 AM   #115 
        - Sure it was  aneerkoinos   Jul-26-03 05:14 PM   #220 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-23-03 08:46 AM   #20 
  - coming from you, that's a compliment  Terwilliger   Jul-23-03 09:06 AM   #30 
  - What?!  Blue_Chill   Jul-23-03 10:25 AM   #48 
  - Political calculation based on information Truman had at the time  slackmaster   Jul-23-03 08:46 AM   #21 
  - The effects of the Los Alamos test were clear  Gringo   Jul-23-03 09:45 AM   #39 
  - Please don't put words into my mouth  slackmaster   Jul-23-03 10:30 AM   #51 
  - hear Truman lie: : "...Hiroshima, a MILITARY BASE..." (links)  amen1234   Jul-26-03 03:01 PM   #197 
  - Gotta vote "Regretable but necessary" because  Gman   Jul-23-03 08:49 AM   #22 
  - I support the dropping of both bombs 100%  Walt Starr   Jul-23-03 09:05 AM   #28 
  - BTW, I do not even believe it was "regretable"  Walt Starr   Jul-23-03 09:10 AM   #32 
  - Totally unecessary  Sick of Bullshit   Jul-23-03 09:19 AM   #33 
  - Unconditional surrender was the only acceptable option  Walt Starr   Jul-23-03 09:33 AM   #36 
  - If that's the case...  Violet_Crumble   Jul-24-03 08:02 AM   #101 
  - Come on....  Set   Jul-23-03 02:29 PM   #82 
     - This is an appallingly ignorant post  Gringo   Jul-23-03 03:19 PM   #87 
        - While Hirohito was a figurehead...  Set   Jul-24-03 12:37 AM   #94 
  - I agree with Walt  Blue_Chill   Jul-23-03 09:32 AM   #35 
  - agree with Walt  mitchtv   Jul-23-03 12:46 PM   #74 
  - I find myself amazed that this is even being discussed  bryant69   Jul-23-03 09:48 AM   #40 
  - Japan & Pearl Harbor was another case of our own blowback  Chicagonian   Jul-23-03 09:28 AM   #34 
  - Offshore demonstration was not a viable option at the time  Walt Starr   Jul-23-03 09:34 AM   #38 
  - How could that have possibly made anything worse?  Leftist78   Jul-26-03 02:57 PM   #194 
  - For what it's worth  charlie   Jul-26-03 03:31 PM   #202 
  - By that logic PNAC America is a case of blowback  JVS   Jul-23-03 10:31 AM   #53 
     - If PNAC were being perpetrated by Native Americans-  Chicagonian   Jul-23-03 01:13 PM   #76 
  - I always believed the first nuke should have targetted Mt. Fuji  Generic Other   Jul-23-03 09:50 AM   #42 
  - Go to the Bradbury Museum in Los Alamos  NewYorkerfromMass   Jul-23-03 09:51 AM   #43 
  - Their exhibits look very attractive, sterile and non-threatening  Gringo   Jul-23-03 10:32 AM   #54 
  - The choice really was: Destroy 2 cities, or Destroy an entire nation.  Ready4Change   Jul-23-03 09:52 AM   #44 
  - A friend's father died recently- an Iwo Jima Marine veteran  NewYorkerfromMass   Jul-23-03 10:21 AM   #46 
  - I have no clue  Magic Rat   Jul-23-03 10:26 AM   #50 
  - The Americans selected targets of military value  NewYorkerfromMass   Jul-23-03 10:31 AM   #52 
     - There may have been targets of value within either city  Gringo   Jul-23-03 10:35 AM   #55 
     - Kokura was primary  Parche   Jul-23-03 01:25 PM   #80 
     - "Black Rain"  ieoeja   Jul-23-03 03:11 PM   #86 
        - No, that's "Grave of the Fireflies", a very good animated film  Gringo   Jul-23-03 03:32 PM   #88 
     - Good point  Generic Other   Jul-23-03 11:11 AM   #60 
     - though tokyo was bombed mercilessly  bpilgrim   Jul-23-03 01:39 PM   #81 
     - Yes Tokyo was bombed, Kyoto was NOT.  NewYorkerfromMass   Jul-23-03 02:33 PM   #83 
        - Himeji was also spared  Art_from_Ark   Jul-25-03 10:12 AM   #129 
     - One big reason  theboss   Jul-23-03 02:34 PM   #84 
  - Talking about History or teaching it  azrak   Jul-23-03 10:35 AM   #56 
  - Huh?  Gringo   Jul-23-03 11:56 AM   #63 
  - Ultimate "fear mongering"...they knew your little desk would NOT  amen1234   Jul-26-03 03:59 PM   #208 
  - The Decision To Use The Atomic Bomb  MrPrax   Jul-23-03 10:59 AM   #58 
  - I'm not buying what you're selling  Walt Starr   Jul-23-03 11:09 AM   #59 
     - so, how long can a modern war machine last without oil?  Aidoneus   Jul-23-03 11:57 AM   #64 
     - uppidy crackers?  Blue_Chill   Jul-24-03 10:21 AM   #109 
        - Nice  Aidoneus   Jul-25-03 07:33 AM   #123 
           - ummmm....  Nazgul35   Jul-25-03 11:23 AM   #140 
              - well said...  Uzybone   Jul-26-03 02:21 PM   #181 
     - Here you go....this may help you  masmdu   Jul-23-03 12:23 PM   #69 
  - Completely UNNECESSARY!...if you know the facts of History you couldn't  masmdu   Jul-23-03 11:33 AM   #62 
  - Our minds are made up, don't confuse us with the facts!  IndianaGreen   Jul-23-03 12:04 PM   #65 
  - Of course calling for unconditional surrender  Uzybone   Jul-26-03 02:24 PM   #183 
  - They did  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-23-03 12:19 PM   #68 
     - The Soviets were not interested in invading the West  IndianaGreen   Jul-23-03 12:33 PM   #72 
        - Thank you  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-23-03 12:41 PM   #73 
        - Muddle  aneerkoinos   Jul-23-03 05:46 PM   #89 
        - Pontificating  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-25-03 07:05 AM   #120 
           - Pontificating? Maybe little  aneerkoinos   Jul-26-03 04:14 PM   #211 
              - Not revisionist  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 05:05 PM   #218 
        - You need to brush up on the Yalta Conference  Art_from_Ark   Jul-25-03 10:03 AM   #128 
           - Monday Morning Quarterbacking  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-25-03 10:24 AM   #130 
           - So how many agreements from the Yalta Conference did Stalin break?  Art_from_Ark   Jul-25-03 09:30 PM   #152 
           - You need to brush up on military strategy and history  Character Assassin   Jul-25-03 11:41 AM   #142 
              - So how many islands are there between Iwo Jima and Tokyo?  Art_from_Ark   Jul-25-03 09:22 PM   #151 
                 - I'm glad  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 06:11 AM   #163 
                    - You have learned nothing, have you?  Art_from_Ark   Jul-26-03 09:32 AM   #164 
                       - Completely and utterly wrong  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 11:55 AM   #166 
                          - to drop the bombs...  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 12:40 PM   #171 
                             - Second guessing  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 02:18 PM   #180 
                                - call it whatever you like, but theres no denying if it ended spring of 45  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 02:38 PM   #188 
                                   - Military  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 02:53 PM   #192 
                                      - i point out that issue in responce to your argument  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 03:17 PM   #198 
                                         - Nope  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 03:33 PM   #203 
                                            - sorry pal  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 03:51 PM   #206 
                                               - One of  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 03:58 PM   #207 
                                                  - it is still sick to try to argue now that they deserved it  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 04:09 PM   #210 
                                                  - I don't care  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 05:43 PM   #222 
        - And there was the matter of having lost the  Snow   Jul-23-03 01:01 PM   #75 
  - From the Goebbels' Dairies  legin   Jul-23-03 12:14 PM   #67 
  - That is key. Oil (or any other rationale) had nothing to do with it  NewYorkerfromMass   Jul-23-03 12:32 PM   #71 
  - The Soviets were planning on invading Japan before the US.  maveric   Jul-23-03 12:29 PM   #70 
  - The US DID let the USSR take over Japanese territory  Art_from_Ark   Jul-25-03 06:23 AM   #113 
  - close  bpilgrim   Jul-23-03 01:15 PM   #78 
  - The most IRONIC thing is that generals argued that 'to save lives...'  bpilgrim   Jul-23-03 01:25 PM   #79 
  - Orwell  DemocratSinceBirth   Jul-23-03 06:08 PM   #90 
  - There's nothing intellectual or pointy-headed about it.  Gringo   Jul-23-03 11:26 PM   #91 
     - Last Resort?  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-23-03 11:39 PM   #92 
     - I finally agree with you - halfway  Gringo   Jul-23-03 11:54 PM   #93 
     - Interesting...  Set   Jul-24-03 12:45 AM   #95 
     - None of this has any bearing on  Gringo   Jul-24-03 01:00 AM   #96 
     - don't you think you're blowing things out of proportion?  Set   Jul-24-03 03:52 AM   #97 
        - you missed one...  bpilgrim   Jul-24-03 10:13 AM   #104 
           - and some more  Kellanved   Jul-24-03 10:17 AM   #106 
           - posted below as well  bpilgrim   Jul-24-03 10:21 AM   #108 
           - Heavy is the head  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-25-03 07:08 AM   #121 
              - BULLSHIT  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 10:28 AM   #131 
                 - Generals  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-25-03 11:42 AM   #143 
                 - lol  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 03:18 PM   #199 
                    - Peace  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 03:45 PM   #204 
                 - and betray our allies?  Set   Jul-25-03 11:50 AM   #145 
                    - We're not going anywhere with this Thread.  Kellanved   Jul-25-03 12:04 PM   #148 
                    - to SAVE LIVES  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 03:19 PM   #200 
     - People Forget  DemocratSinceBirth   Jul-25-03 08:02 AM   #126 
     - MacArthur was no great Amerucan Hero...  Darranar   Jul-25-03 10:24 PM   #155 
     - wrong  bpilgrim   Jul-24-03 09:56 AM   #103 
     - "they (nuclear weapons shouldn't be used even as a last resort imo)"  DemocratSinceBirth   Jul-24-03 06:37 AM   #98 
        - I can accept the second  Gringo   Jul-24-03 09:41 AM   #102 
        - i agree  bpilgrim   Jul-24-03 10:20 AM   #107 
        - so will you say the same when they are used against us?  bpilgrim   Jul-24-03 10:16 AM   #105 
           - Hmmmm  DemocratSinceBirth   Jul-25-03 07:45 AM   #125 
              - The War in the Pacific began long before December 7, 1941  Art_from_Ark   Jul-25-03 09:38 AM   #127 
              - And the stage was set for WWII in 1870....  Set   Jul-25-03 11:53 AM   #146 
                 - Stage  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-25-03 12:00 PM   #147 
                 - Since you did not actually read my post, I will summarize it for you  Art_from_Ark   Jul-25-03 10:11 PM   #154 
              - and in the end they had there 1 condition met  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 10:36 AM   #132 
  - The Japanese were NOT going to surrender  Woodstock   Jul-24-03 10:24 AM   #110 
  - This seems to be an article of faith for you and many others  Gringo   Jul-24-03 10:34 AM   #111 
     - I Disagree  DemocratSinceBirth   Jul-25-03 05:37 AM   #112 
     - Trumand to Blame for Cold War?  southern_demo   Jul-25-03 07:03 AM   #119 
        - Truman started the Cold War with his intervention in Greece  IndianaGreen   Jul-25-03 07:44 AM   #124 
           - That is utterly, completely ridiculous  Character Assassin   Jul-26-03 03:49 PM   #205 
              - I decided to start a separate thread because this one is so large already  IndianaGreen   Jul-26-03 04:44 PM   #216 
  - My late dad blessed Truman for using the bomb  tlb   Jul-25-03 06:29 AM   #114 
  - Truman Was Right  southern_demo   Jul-25-03 06:36 AM   #116 
  - how many lives would have been saved IF Truman ended the war in spring 45  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 10:44 AM   #133 
  - Truman did what he had to do  Loonman   Jul-25-03 06:40 AM   #117 
  - a sign of the times  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 10:45 AM   #134 
  - shocked  southern_demo   Jul-25-03 06:44 AM   #118 
  - that you don't know how many lives would have been saved IF  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 10:47 AM   #136 
  - Reading This Thread  DemocratSinceBirth   Jul-25-03 07:30 AM   #122 
  - hopefully you learned something  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 10:48 AM   #137 
  - Too Murky, Ask Again Later  LuminousX   Jul-25-03 10:46 AM   #135 
  - if Truman followed the advice of his military leaders AT THE TIME  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 10:53 AM   #138 
  - Japan's nuclear program  tanizaki   Jul-25-03 10:54 AM   #139 
  - Umm, technically those American nuclear weapons  Art_from_Ark   Jul-25-03 09:54 PM   #153 
     - What's all this "technically" nonsense  tanizaki   Jul-25-03 10:48 PM   #156 
     - actually they keep it hidden from the people  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 11:27 PM   #158 
     - You should have read your own link  Art_from_Ark   Jul-26-03 12:20 AM   #160 
        - I did read the link  tanizaki   Jul-26-03 11:47 AM   #165 
     - that existed  Kellanved   Jul-26-03 05:24 AM   #162 
  - Do you live in the real world?  SyracuseDemocrat   Jul-25-03 11:27 AM   #141 
  - Your version of history seems a bit muddled - time to hit the books?  Gringo   Jul-25-03 12:44 PM   #149 
  - I'm having difficulty phrasing this thought well, but there is an  Snow   Jul-25-03 11:44 AM   #144 
  - your right, all part of the myth, but they dropped it to 'SHOCK and AWE'  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 04:49 PM   #150 
  - it's extremely important to DEMONIZE people, as bush* is doing  amen1234   Jul-26-03 12:16 PM   #167 
     - You are Right: the Japanese were a wonderful people  southern_demo   Jul-26-03 12:22 PM   #168 
        - we got that beat...  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 02:49 PM   #191 
  - My father was in the Second Marine Division...  Feminist_man   Jul-25-03 10:56 PM   #157 
  - when did we land on okinawa again?  bpilgrim   Jul-25-03 11:31 PM   #159 
  - As a Japanese I have a thing to say  hertopos   Jul-26-03 12:47 AM   #161 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-26-03 12:37 PM   #169 
  - A bit over the top don't you think  Droopy   Jul-26-03 01:03 PM   #173 
  - a perfect example of the mindset of the imperial japanese of wwII...  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 01:28 PM   #175 
  - Spare us your nationalistic, jingoist, rightwing crap!  IndianaGreen   Jul-26-03 02:00 PM   #176 
  - Subtle  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 02:58 PM   #195 
     - Having a reading comprehension problem, Muddle?  IndianaGreen   Jul-26-03 05:16 PM   #221 
        - Not even  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 05:47 PM   #223 
  - Pathetic  Uzybone   Jul-26-03 02:38 PM   #187 
  - Wow! That's some bullshit  Astarho   Jul-26-03 03:24 PM   #201 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-26-03 12:37 PM   #170 
     - Since you posted your racist crap twice, I'll post my reply again!  IndianaGreen   Jul-26-03 02:03 PM   #177 
  - Sorry to disagree  Joeve   Jul-26-03 12:49 PM   #172 
  - Can you imagine if they *hadn't* atom-bombed Japan?  Ratty   Jul-26-03 01:26 PM   #174 
  - Yes, I can imagine. and the "what if" this happens fuels the hate  amen1234   Jul-26-03 02:27 PM   #184 
  - I say a combo  Uzybone   Jul-26-03 02:08 PM   #178 
  - (link) Atomic Bomb: the decision documents (includes speech  amen1234   Jul-26-03 02:33 PM   #186 
  - The Greatest Single Act of Terrorism Committed in Modern Times  the_sam   Jul-26-03 02:22 PM   #182 
  - Hiroshima, the second most horrid word in the english language  bpilgrim   Jul-26-03 02:42 PM   #189 
  - Verge  Muddleoftheroad   Jul-26-03 02:55 PM   #193 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Jul-26-03 02:59 PM   #196 
  - The polling results haven't studied the period  JackSwift   Jul-26-03 05:12 PM   #219 
  - I am locking this thread.  newyawker99   Jul-26-03 05:59 PM   #225 
  - It's easy to second-guess Truman, but faced with the choice  jody   Jul-26-03 05:54 PM   #224 
 

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