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Reply #73: Zero tolerance policies are problematic, [View All]

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-28-03 05:10 PM
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73. Zero tolerance policies are problematic,

to be sure, but they are meant to hold all violators of the policy to the same standard and that's a good thing. If this case involved a mediocre student who'd had numerous disciplinary referrals, it wouldn't have made the newspaper. But should that kid (a "bad" kid, a "discipline problem") be punished more harshly for expressing his/her thoughts? Assuming similar content of the expressions of thought, why should the school be more lenient with the never-been-in-trouble honor student? An honor student should be better able to understand the policy, if grades reflect any ability to think in a reasonable manner.

Kids get pigeonholed in school as good students/ bad students, smart/average/dumb, well-behaved/ troublemakers, and a lot of teachers do little to challenge the labels and preconceptions that get attached to kids. I know you've seen this, Prodigal, just as dsc and I, and anyone else who's taught, has. Kids are not as simple as the labels suggest, and they're awfully limited by those labels. The "dumb troublemakers" need to have chances to be smart and well-behaved while the smart and well-behaved need to be allowed to screw up academically and in behavior.

If this school is typical, I'm afraid that the school psychologist would have taken the popular view of this girl as good student/ smart / well-behaved to mean "No danger." Then what? She's not punished? She's punished less than the rules say? Is that fair?

The school isn't really policing anyone's thoughts; they're dealing with thoughts that have been expressed on paper, or in speech, when those expressions of thought suggest that the student could be a threat to the safety of others. People have to learn how to appropriately express their thoughts.
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  -High school girl's diary confiscated and read...and then it gets bad ProdigalJunkMail  Oct-27-03 03:39 PM   #0 
  - It just goes to show  Frangible   Oct-27-03 03:46 PM   #1 
  - and just what do you say  dsc   Oct-27-03 03:49 PM   #2 
  - there is a difference between a threat and a thought  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 03:51 PM   #5 
  - And no threat has ever occurred without a preceding thought.....  E_Zapata   Oct-27-03 04:47 PM   #21 
  - thinking  zonmoy   Oct-28-03 03:54 PM   #70 
  - Here's what you say  sangh0   Oct-27-03 03:51 PM   #6 
  - why inject race?  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 04:19 PM   #12 
  - I think race (or sociology re race) is an issue  E_Zapata   Oct-27-03 04:50 PM   #22 
     - let's blame it all on whitey  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 05:12 PM   #24 
     - Follow the gunfire in the schools......  E_Zapata   Oct-27-03 05:33 PM   #26 
        - funny...  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 05:39 PM   #27 
        - Follow the brush fire that killed 12 people in San Diego County  slackmaster   Oct-28-03 09:36 AM   #30 
        - That fire is something else  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 09:38 AM   #31 
           - Yes, it's pretty awful  slackmaster   Oct-28-03 10:42 AM   #45 
        - actually...  DoNotRefill   Oct-29-03 12:11 AM   #83 
     - Racial profiling  Bandit   Oct-28-03 12:57 PM   #56 
  - for it to be a "threat" it has to be *communicated*  enki23   Oct-27-03 04:31 PM   #16 
  - I am going to get really FLAMED for this,  E_Zapata   Oct-27-03 04:44 PM   #20 
  - And just how does 'zero tolerance' help?  Monte Carlo   Oct-28-03 10:06 AM   #37 
  - yepper  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 03:49 PM   #3 
  - spirit of the law...  elfwitch   Oct-27-03 03:50 PM   #4 
     - how can there be any interpretation of Zero Tolerance laws?  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 03:52 PM   #7 
  - devil's advocate  Smirky McChimpster   Oct-27-03 03:54 PM   #8 
  - I hear ya, Smirk!  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 03:57 PM   # 
  - I hear ya, Smirk!  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 03:57 PM   #9 
  - I think it stems more from Fear than zero tolerance rules  salin   Oct-27-03 04:01 PM   #10 
  - valuable two cents...  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 04:04 PM   #11 
     - lack of good parenting .... for the teachers, or for the kids  salin   Oct-27-03 04:19 PM   #13 
        - big smiley, but the point is...  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 04:23 PM   #14 
           - I hear you  salin   Oct-27-03 04:29 PM   #15 
  - Just my .02  msmcghee   Oct-27-03 04:38 PM   #17 
  - the school did this girl a favor....  flush_bush   Oct-27-03 04:39 PM   #18 
  - I do hope her writing keeps growing  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 05:11 PM   #23 
  - Parents have to hammer it home - NO writing, drawing leaves the house  DuctapeFatwa   Oct-27-03 04:40 PM   #19 
  - it is a shame the world has come to this  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-27-03 05:14 PM   #25 
  - OFF TOPIC...why was this moved?  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 08:29 AM   #28 
  - Hey...we're back  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 09:32 AM   #29 
  - welcome to High School  thebigidea   Oct-28-03 09:38 AM   #32 
  - now that I think about it...  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 09:40 AM   #33 
  - it's absurd  Caution   Oct-28-03 09:48 AM   #34 
  - this is a preparation, i believe  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 09:58 AM   #35 
  - 'Zero Tolerance' rules are the antithesis of all reason.  Monte Carlo   Oct-28-03 10:03 AM   #36 
  - illusion is right  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 10:06 AM   #38 
     - The most hysterical interpretation wins with zero tolerance.  Monte Carlo   Oct-28-03 10:16 AM   #40 
  - Honestly, had someone boosted one of my notebooks  Colin Ex   Oct-28-03 10:10 AM   #39 
  - this goes to the fact that  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 10:25 AM   #43 
     - Yes  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 10:30 AM   #44 
        - Okay...  Colin Ex   Oct-28-03 03:08 PM   #63 
           - Wrong  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 11:29 PM   #75 
              - Oh, I get it now...  Wednesdays   Oct-29-03 09:18 AM   #97 
              - Not the same rights as the rest of us  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 09:30 AM   #100 
                 - What the Supreme Court said  Wednesdays   Oct-29-03 10:16 AM   #110 
                    - But not the same level of rights  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 11:28 AM   #113 
              - Not quite  knight_of_the_star   Oct-29-03 01:19 PM   #124 
  - Kids need a better sense of what is and is not  DemBones DemBones   Oct-28-03 10:21 AM   #41 
  - I can certainly see your points...well stated.  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 10:50 AM   #47 
  - OK, assume you are that teacher  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 10:58 AM   #49 
     - Actually, I am a teacher  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 11:11 AM   #50 
        - So you trust her  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 12:23 PM   #54 
           - i disagree  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 01:26 PM   #57 
              - Not happy, just not life threatening  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 02:15 PM   #59 
                 - i have a hard time with the comparison  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 02:44 PM   #60 
                 - Government  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 11:32 PM   #76 
                 - the teacher didn't just find the story  salin   Oct-28-03 03:22 PM   #67 
                 - Confiscated  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 11:34 PM   #77 
                    - Was before Columbine - but during the time  salin   Oct-29-03 09:25 AM   #98 
                    - And then what?  Wednesdays   Oct-29-03 09:29 AM   #99 
                       - Note the word, perhaps  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 09:34 AM   #102 
                          - Um  Wednesdays   Oct-29-03 09:49 AM   #105 
                             - Sets and subsets  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 09:52 AM   #106 
                 - Sure, let's look at your analogy  WhereIsMyFreedom   Oct-28-03 03:54 PM   #71 
                    - Employment at will  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 11:38 PM   #78 
                       - But I think you are wrong about this specific action  WhereIsMyFreedom   Oct-29-03 12:30 AM   #84 
                       - Continuing  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 07:01 AM   #91 
                       - please pass me what you are smoking!  dionysus   Oct-29-03 10:17 AM   #111 
                          - Sorry, I don't smoke  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 11:30 AM   #114 
  - Each and every time  kgfnally   Oct-28-03 03:00 PM   #61 
  - The other side  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 10:22 AM   #42 
  - thought police  Terwilliger   Oct-28-03 10:45 AM   #46 
     - Not thought police at all  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 10:56 AM   #48 
        - if fiction were a cry for help... all authors would be LOCKED UP  thebigidea   Oct-28-03 11:14 AM   #51 
           - Not at all  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 12:19 PM   #53 
              - Exhibit A: Stephen King, "RAGE"  thebigidea   Oct-28-03 03:14 PM   #66 
                 - Rage  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 11:41 PM   #80 
                    - ah..  thebigidea   Oct-29-03 01:40 AM   #90 
                       - Obvious extension?  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 07:03 AM   #92 
                          - Oh?  Wednesdays   Oct-29-03 09:37 AM   #103 
                             - Zero tolerance  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 09:53 AM   #107 
                                - doesn't that post look gorgeous  thebigidea   Oct-29-03 09:56 AM   #109 
                                   - I don't design zero tolerance policies  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 11:32 AM   #115 
                                      - doubleplusgood, citizen  thebigidea   Oct-29-03 11:36 AM   #117 
                                         - Not doublespeak  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 11:47 AM   #120 
                                            - you are wise in the ways of everything and anything, citizen.  thebigidea   Oct-29-03 11:57 AM   #123 
  - Oh My....  RobinA   Oct-28-03 12:17 PM   #52 
  - The Blunt Truth  jiacinto   Oct-28-03 12:26 PM   #55 
  - wow, I agree with you!  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-28-03 01:29 PM   #58 
     - I hate zero tolerance rules  jiacinto   Oct-28-03 03:09 PM   #64 
  - This is maddening.  Zhade   Oct-28-03 03:02 PM   #62 
  - Put yourself in the position of that school district  jiacinto   Oct-28-03 03:13 PM   #65 
     - I agree with you completely  slackmaster   Oct-28-03 03:33 PM   #68 
     - School psychologists are typically more  DemBones DemBones   Oct-28-03 05:16 PM   #74 
     - So it is all about liability  WhereIsMyFreedom   Oct-28-03 04:04 PM   #72 
        - That too  jiacinto   Oct-28-03 11:39 PM   #79 
        - Not just liability  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-28-03 11:43 PM   #81 
  - I'm glad I graduated high school before columbine..  killbotfactory   Oct-28-03 03:43 PM   #69 
  - Maybe the thought of a multi million dollar lawsuit  jiacinto   Oct-29-03 12:38 AM   #86 
  - Zero tolerance policies are problematic,  DemBones DemBones   Oct-28-03 05:10 PM   #73 
  - There's a good reason that we don't do that for  WhereIsMyFreedom   Oct-29-03 12:38 AM   #87 
  - Man, this is BS  ComerPerro   Oct-28-03 11:44 PM   #82 
  - Put yourself in the position of a school system superintendent  jiacinto   Oct-29-03 12:35 AM   #85 
     - Yeah, I agree with that part  ComerPerro   Oct-29-03 12:40 AM   #88 
        - Well it should have been handled differently  jiacinto   Oct-29-03 12:45 AM   #89 
           - Not enough  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 07:05 AM   #93 
              - or address the over reactions  salin   Oct-29-03 09:32 AM   #101 
              - Not an overreaction  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 09:55 AM   #108 
              - I see your point there  jiacinto   Oct-29-03 01:40 PM   #126 
  - Boy does this thread make me angry!  FlaGranny   Oct-29-03 08:25 AM   #94 
  - I was a shool kid in the '60s and '70s  slackmaster   Oct-29-03 08:38 AM   #95 
  - Oh man...does that take me back  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-29-03 08:58 AM   #96 
  - ROLF...where did you go to school in the 60s...china? heh n/t  MrPrax   Oct-29-03 10:28 AM   #112 
     - San Diego Unified School District  slackmaster   Oct-29-03 01:22 PM   #125 
  - According to Muddle, you had no right to do that.  Wednesdays   Oct-29-03 09:40 AM   #104 
     - LOL  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 11:33 AM   #116 
     - what part of 'not a threat' do you not understand?  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-29-03 11:36 AM   #118 
     - Still a threat  Muddleoftheroad   Oct-29-03 11:49 AM   #121 
        - sorry...stories are not threats  ProdigalJunkMail   Oct-29-03 11:51 AM   #122 
     - sure you can,if its fiction  thebigidea   Oct-29-03 11:38 AM   #119 
     - Put yourself in the position of the district superintendent  jiacinto   Oct-29-03 01:43 PM   #127 
  - The schools are in a tough position . . .  theboss   Oct-29-03 01:47 PM   #128 
 

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