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Reply #47: Needn't be either / or -- just need clarity about what we are working on. [View All]

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pat_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-15-05 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #42
47. Needn't be either / or -- just need clarity about what we are working on.
Edited on Thu Dec-15-05 01:54 AM by pat_k
There are actually several different things going on, all loosely related to the fight for trustworthy elections. To be most effective, we need to be clear about what we are working on. For example:

(1) Making the case to lawmakers (Repub or Dem) that our election system must undergo radical change.

It is not necessary to prove past fraud to make progress in this effort. But, we do need to pin down lawmakers on what they believe the minimum requirements for a free and fair election are.

If we don't elicit even one or two minimum requirements, how can we make the case that radical change is needed to ensure those minimum requirements are met? If we don't establish what conduct they view as intolerable, how can we make the case that change is required to ensure the intolerable does not occur?

This is where dialog is mandatory. Posing questions, following up, and challenging rationalizations should yield a couple mandatory requirements that our current elections completely fail to provide.

Questions like the following can get the dialog rolling: "Do you believe citizens have a right to have confidence in their elections?", "Are hours-long poll-tax-lines for poor, minority voters AND none for affluent, white voters a tolerable condition for you?", "Some people invoke a large margin of victory to dismiss the rights of the disenfranchised, claiming that insufficient numbers were disenfranchised to change the outcome. Does that make sense to you?"

(2) Pursuing evidence of fraud and going after the perpetrators.

Identifying and punishing the perpetrators of fraud is critical. We must go after the perpetrators, even if the only court available is the court of public opinion. Identifying election manipulation is not enough. There must be consequences.

(3) Enlisting citizens in the fight.

There are many different on ramps. As you note, some people are activated by the crimes that have occurred; others by a desire to punish the perpetrators; others by the fight for fundamental principles or legislative change. Many just want to do something, they are just looking for some simple action. We can all help spread the word and help others find ways to voice their objections. Most people don't need tons of evidence. Most don't need complex talking points. A simple message to lawmakers or leaders of good government organizations is sometimes the most powerful ("I don't want to vote on a machine. I don't trust them! What are you going to do about it??")

(4) Breaking through Democratic Denial that the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen.

As long as Democrats continue to deny the horrible truth -- that the elections of 2000 and 2004 were stolen -- they will be complicit with the perpetrators of the fraud.

When she joined Rep. Tubbs-Jones objection on January 6th, Barbara Boxer shed the bonds of complicity in the theft of Ohio.

The rest of the Senate and a vast majority of our other Democratic leaders remain in denial. Tragically, their silence and tacit complicity feeds the motivation to deny. A vicious cycle.

Confronting them with the overwhelming evidence is one approach, but to date, they have effectively brushed aside the evidence. Part of the problem is that unscrupulous lobbyists and internal government entities have turned "facts" into slippery things (consider the "Intel" on Iraq). All too often, our government officials have been presented with supposedly "solid" cases built on "facts" and "evidence" that have turned out to be utter crap.

In other words, their position and experiences make them uniquely resistant to cases built on facts and evidence.

They have strong motives to resist the case for massive fraud. Fear of ridicule is part of it, but it is more than that. It is not easy to grasp the notion that the presumably rational world you operate in is being turned on its head by irrational criminal fascists. Think invasion of the body snatchers. Folks didn't believe Donald Sutherland ('78 version) either.

There are a variety of ways to create conditions that are conducive to facing the truth. At the moment, fear of ridicule by the opposition and the public is a barrier. Imagine how the dynamics would shift if any mention of Kerry-08 or Gore-08 was met with guffaws and cries of "What, that quitter?? Just what we need! A guy who turned his back democracy out of fear of being called a bad name."

Facing the horrible truth demands action. If we keep pounding away, their wall of denial will crumble sooner or later. Progress on (1), (2), and (3) will hasten the day.
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  -Denial of the 2004 Election Theft An Astonishing Example Time for change  Dec-14-05 02:28 AM   #0 
  - denial extends to all sorts of issue, the most prominent . . .  OneBlueSky   Dec-14-05 02:40 AM   #1 
  - Just wait to a few more wheels fall off  nolabels   Dec-14-05 03:08 AM   #2 
  - Hopefully, the combination the Valerie Plame scandal, the Iraq war scandal  Time for change   Dec-14-05 10:34 PM   #44 
  - I agree -- there is way too much of that in this country  Time for change   Dec-14-05 07:16 AM   #6 
  - Was Gumby afraid that he would get "suicided" too?  electropop   Dec-14-05 01:20 PM   #33 
  - Great post.  Wilms   Dec-14-05 03:43 AM   #3 
  - A lot of people's minds reject immediately if they perceive complexity  glitch   Dec-14-05 10:29 AM   #14 
  - I agree.  Wilms   Dec-14-05 12:01 PM   #25 
  - What we are IMO is people who are trying to live up to our  Time for change   Dec-14-05 06:09 PM   #40 
  - Thank you for the links to the other lawsuits  Time for change   Dec-14-05 01:46 PM   #35 
  - The repugs in Ohio's legislature know they won by cheating because .....  Botany   Dec-14-05 04:41 AM   #4 
  - Everything you describe here is awful  Time for change   Dec-14-05 05:03 PM   #39 
  - Thanks for a tremendous post Time For Change. Gumbel drops the ball.  Stevepol   Dec-14-05 05:36 AM   #5 
  - Thank you Stevepol - Yes, I most definitely believe that Gumbel did drop  Time for change   Dec-14-05 02:45 PM   #37 
  - Great resources in this post  rosesaylavee   Dec-14-05 07:32 AM   #7 
  - One thing I should have said in my OP  Time for change   Dec-14-05 08:08 AM   #8 
  - The difference between Georgia and Ohio was that Georgia was  John Q. Citizen   Dec-14-05 10:14 AM   #13 
     - I tend to agree with you. Thinking like a criminal for a minute,  sfexpat2000   Dec-14-05 10:43 AM   #16 
     - Yes, and the bulk of the evidence also points to multiple methods  Time for change   Dec-15-05 12:13 AM   #46 
     - I pretty much agree with the points you make here, with one exception  Time for change   Dec-14-05 11:22 AM   #18 
  - A note on election fraud denial  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 08:59 AM   #9 
  - So, are you implying that this is no big deal?  Time for change   Dec-14-05 09:37 AM   #10 
     - What in my post gave you that impression?  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 09:59 AM   #11 
        - What gave me that impression is when you said  Time for change   Dec-14-05 10:10 AM   #12 
           - May I butt in? I don't think the propensity to steal an election  John Q. Citizen   Dec-14-05 10:51 AM   #17 
           - I'm not sure I understand your first sentence of this post  Time for change   Dec-14-05 11:29 AM   #19 
              - You have a much higher regard for the integrity of the Democratic  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 11:39 AM   #24 
              - My first sentence was because you had directed your question  John Q. Citizen   Dec-14-05 12:03 PM   #26 
                 - Yes, I have spent much time myself wondering why there's no more outcry  Time for change   Dec-14-05 12:34 PM   #29 
                    - Thanks for your OP as well as this discussion. I'm enjoying  John Q. Citizen   Dec-14-05 01:36 PM   #34 
                       - Yes, this certainly is a very complex issue  Time for change   Dec-14-05 02:28 PM   #36 
           - Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 11:30 AM   #20 
              - I pretty much agree with everything you say here  Time for change   Dec-14-05 12:23 PM   #27 
              - Glad we mostly agree.  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 12:30 PM   #28 
                 - I certainly didn't mean it like that  Time for change   Dec-14-05 12:40 PM   #30 
              - I lived in Illinois at the time  eridani   Dec-15-05 04:45 AM   #49 
  - Gumbel follows the same illogical path that many on DU follow....  loudsue   Dec-14-05 10:33 AM   #15 
  - Well, I don't think that anyone knows just how many votes they were  Time for change   Dec-14-05 11:19 PM   #45 
  - K&R  Al-CIAda   Dec-14-05 11:31 AM   #21 
  - I read this book early last summer. I highly recommend it to any  mod mom   Dec-14-05 11:33 AM   #22 
  - I agree that it gives an excellent historical perspective  Time for change   Dec-14-05 06:35 PM   #41 
  - K&R.  understandinglife   Dec-14-05 11:38 AM   #23 
  - A different sort of case is needed that goes beyond specific cases of frau  pat_k   Dec-14-05 12:58 PM   #31 
  - I can see the point of looking at it like that  Time for change   Dec-14-05 07:01 PM   #42 
     - Needn't be either / or -- just need clarity about what we are working on.  pat_k   Dec-15-05 01:39 AM   #47 
        - Yes, that's excellent n/t  Time for change   Dec-15-05 02:33 AM   #48 
  - Great post, Tfc. Rec'd.  bleever   Dec-14-05 12:59 PM   #32 
  - By his concession, Kerry set the tone: cover-up the lie.  robbedvoter   Dec-14-05 03:30 PM   #38 
  - Well, that was unfortunate  Time for change   Dec-14-05 09:28 PM   #43 
     - For his personal comfort ("avoiding the sore loser labels). More important  robbedvoter   Dec-15-05 09:47 PM   #52 
  - Whilst I don't deny the fraud issues  ikri   Dec-15-05 04:51 AM   #50 
     - Fraud was nationwide. The magnitude of Kerry's margin of victory will ne  pat_k   Dec-15-05 11:27 AM   #51 
 

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