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Reply #36: Yes, this certainly is a very complex issue [View All]

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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-14-05 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. Yes, this certainly is a very complex issue
Probably there are some Democrats that are complicit, though I certainly hope that the number is very small. And you are almost certainly right that Dems are somewhat reluctant to call into question the legitimacy of elections because that will at least to some degree call into question their own legitimacy.

I enthusiastically agree with you, though, that Democrats in general should be much more assertive about this issue and take it very seriously, not withstanding the comments I made about their fear for their political future. But only the most courageous will be able to do this I fear. I am so grateful to leaders like Conyers and Boxer, who put themselves out in front of this issue.

As far as Joe Blow citizen is concerned, I may see it a little differently than you. My hope is that if we and our Democratic leaders make enough noise, take this issue seriously enough, and work to document the failures of our electoral process, including how the 2004 election was stolen, that that might fire up citizens to be more enthusiastic about voting. In other words, I believe that dispersing information about how the 2004 election was stolen will help to improve especially Democratic turnout in the next election. (Which was a large part of my incentive for writing this post).

In fact, I believe that to a large extent, that is exactly what happened in 2004. I believe that the message that Gore was an illigitimate victor in 2000 helped fire up the electorate in 2004, and that's why we saw such a high turnout. Unfortunately, there was so much voter suppression, including illegal voter purges, that the relatively very high turnout in 2004 wasn't able to help Kerry as much as it should have.
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  -Denial of the 2004 Election Theft An Astonishing Example Time for change  Dec-14-05 02:28 AM   #0 
  - denial extends to all sorts of issue, the most prominent . . .  OneBlueSky   Dec-14-05 02:40 AM   #1 
  - Just wait to a few more wheels fall off  nolabels   Dec-14-05 03:08 AM   #2 
  - Hopefully, the combination the Valerie Plame scandal, the Iraq war scandal  Time for change   Dec-14-05 10:34 PM   #44 
  - I agree -- there is way too much of that in this country  Time for change   Dec-14-05 07:16 AM   #6 
  - Was Gumby afraid that he would get "suicided" too?  electropop   Dec-14-05 01:20 PM   #33 
  - Great post.  Wilms   Dec-14-05 03:43 AM   #3 
  - A lot of people's minds reject immediately if they perceive complexity  glitch   Dec-14-05 10:29 AM   #14 
  - I agree.  Wilms   Dec-14-05 12:01 PM   #25 
  - What we are IMO is people who are trying to live up to our  Time for change   Dec-14-05 06:09 PM   #40 
  - Thank you for the links to the other lawsuits  Time for change   Dec-14-05 01:46 PM   #35 
  - The repugs in Ohio's legislature know they won by cheating because .....  Botany   Dec-14-05 04:41 AM   #4 
  - Everything you describe here is awful  Time for change   Dec-14-05 05:03 PM   #39 
  - Thanks for a tremendous post Time For Change. Gumbel drops the ball.  Stevepol   Dec-14-05 05:36 AM   #5 
  - Thank you Stevepol - Yes, I most definitely believe that Gumbel did drop  Time for change   Dec-14-05 02:45 PM   #37 
  - Great resources in this post  rosesaylavee   Dec-14-05 07:32 AM   #7 
  - One thing I should have said in my OP  Time for change   Dec-14-05 08:08 AM   #8 
  - The difference between Georgia and Ohio was that Georgia was  John Q. Citizen   Dec-14-05 10:14 AM   #13 
     - I tend to agree with you. Thinking like a criminal for a minute,  sfexpat2000   Dec-14-05 10:43 AM   #16 
     - Yes, and the bulk of the evidence also points to multiple methods  Time for change   Dec-15-05 12:13 AM   #46 
     - I pretty much agree with the points you make here, with one exception  Time for change   Dec-14-05 11:22 AM   #18 
  - A note on election fraud denial  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 08:59 AM   #9 
  - So, are you implying that this is no big deal?  Time for change   Dec-14-05 09:37 AM   #10 
     - What in my post gave you that impression?  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 09:59 AM   #11 
        - What gave me that impression is when you said  Time for change   Dec-14-05 10:10 AM   #12 
           - May I butt in? I don't think the propensity to steal an election  John Q. Citizen   Dec-14-05 10:51 AM   #17 
           - I'm not sure I understand your first sentence of this post  Time for change   Dec-14-05 11:29 AM   #19 
              - You have a much higher regard for the integrity of the Democratic  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 11:39 AM   #24 
              - My first sentence was because you had directed your question  John Q. Citizen   Dec-14-05 12:03 PM   #26 
                 - Yes, I have spent much time myself wondering why there's no more outcry  Time for change   Dec-14-05 12:34 PM   #29 
                    - Thanks for your OP as well as this discussion. I'm enjoying  John Q. Citizen   Dec-14-05 01:36 PM   #34 
                       - Yes, this certainly is a very complex issue  Time for change   Dec-14-05 02:28 PM   #36 
           - Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 11:30 AM   #20 
              - I pretty much agree with everything you say here  Time for change   Dec-14-05 12:23 PM   #27 
              - Glad we mostly agree.  smoogatz   Dec-14-05 12:30 PM   #28 
                 - I certainly didn't mean it like that  Time for change   Dec-14-05 12:40 PM   #30 
              - I lived in Illinois at the time  eridani   Dec-15-05 04:45 AM   #49 
  - Gumbel follows the same illogical path that many on DU follow....  loudsue   Dec-14-05 10:33 AM   #15 
  - Well, I don't think that anyone knows just how many votes they were  Time for change   Dec-14-05 11:19 PM   #45 
  - K&R  Al-CIAda   Dec-14-05 11:31 AM   #21 
  - I read this book early last summer. I highly recommend it to any  mod mom   Dec-14-05 11:33 AM   #22 
  - I agree that it gives an excellent historical perspective  Time for change   Dec-14-05 06:35 PM   #41 
  - K&R.  understandinglife   Dec-14-05 11:38 AM   #23 
  - A different sort of case is needed that goes beyond specific cases of frau  pat_k   Dec-14-05 12:58 PM   #31 
  - I can see the point of looking at it like that  Time for change   Dec-14-05 07:01 PM   #42 
     - Needn't be either / or -- just need clarity about what we are working on.  pat_k   Dec-15-05 01:39 AM   #47 
        - Yes, that's excellent n/t  Time for change   Dec-15-05 02:33 AM   #48 
  - Great post, Tfc. Rec'd.  bleever   Dec-14-05 12:59 PM   #32 
  - By his concession, Kerry set the tone: cover-up the lie.  robbedvoter   Dec-14-05 03:30 PM   #38 
  - Well, that was unfortunate  Time for change   Dec-14-05 09:28 PM   #43 
     - For his personal comfort ("avoiding the sore loser labels). More important  robbedvoter   Dec-15-05 09:47 PM   #52 
  - Whilst I don't deny the fraud issues  ikri   Dec-15-05 04:51 AM   #50 
     - Fraud was nationwide. The magnitude of Kerry's margin of victory will ne  pat_k   Dec-15-05 11:27 AM   #51 

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