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Chants Donating Member (23 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-18-03 10:56 PM
Response to Original message
136. People are against free trade because...
...of a lot of reasons.

Free trade is crucial to developing third world nations. The jobs we outsource go to people who have little alternative to economic development. They can either work the subsitence farm, work in a low tech craft, or some other indiginous market, or take a job that pays triple what they make otherwise, even if American workers do the same thing for 3 times more the money. People take these jobs because they know it's the best deal out there for them.

Is this exploitation? Technically, you bet it is. The workers are clearly being exploited, but it is more than that. The corporations are exploiting underdeveloped economies. These economies have not been able to develop market systems capable of paying these laborers anything close to what these corporations are prepared to pay them. Building factories in these places makes perfect sense for everyone involved. The workers get paid, more cash get infused into the local economy, tax revenue goes up, cottage industries spring up servicing the workers, parents have more to spend on thier children, and the overall standard of living goes up.

The down side to this happy marriage is the American worker. The American worker, who has worked his or her butt off for this corporation simply can't afford to to accept the wages of a third world worker and remain solvent in a highly developed -- and expensive -- developed nation. That is a problem, a very serious problem, morally and economically.

If enough American workers suffer, then the overall American economy suffers. Consumer spending goes down, children are less well off financially, depression, alchoholism, and the rest of the parade of horribles rears its ugly head.

On the other hand, corporate profits drive the economy as well. Pensions, insurance, and a whole host of other benefits thrive off of corporate profits. Grandma and grandpa depend on pensions to live. Adequately funded insurance plans save lives. Even the workers who lost their jobs have well funded pensions.

Of course, a well funded pension means little to the some 40 years old worker with outmoded skills. Workers need jobs, not pensions. If they dont earn now, their pension means little.

So where do you strike a balance? Well, this is not a new problem. Industrialized nations all became industrialized through trade barriers. They protected thier indiginous industries to the point where they were sufficiently developed, and then went global the best they could.

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  -Why Is Everyone Here Against Free Trade? Composed Thinker  Oct-18-03 08:18 PM   #0 
  - You take a shot at identifying the "great things" and I'll be happy to  burythehatchet   Oct-18-03 08:20 PM   #1 
  - Tell the people of Ambridge and Aliquippa PA how great Free Trade is  The Zanti Regent   Oct-19-03 12:38 AM   #170 
  - Because they believe in  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:21 PM   #2 
  - Are you talking about the pharmacutical industry or Microsoft?  Classical_Liberal   Oct-19-03 01:26 PM   #193 
  - yup - I'd like to hear what those "great things" are...  laura888   Oct-18-03 08:23 PM   #3 
  - Your job for starters  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:25 PM   #7 
  - my job? please explain - not sure what you're saying...n/t  laura888   Oct-18-03 08:27 PM   #9 
     - Yeah you are  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:30 PM   #11 
        - no - please explain how corporations reaping...  laura888   Oct-18-03 08:36 PM   #17 
        - Forget the ideology  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:40 PM   #22 
        - The computer progammers were doing what they couldn't  Classical_Liberal   Oct-19-03 01:28 PM   #194 
        - The Issue Is Job Creation At Home-NOT OUTSOURCING!!!  cryingshame   Oct-18-03 08:45 PM   #30 
           - The issue here is actually free trade  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:51 PM   #36 
           - Do tell Maple....  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 09:03 PM   #56 
              - You see yourself as that dumb??  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:13 PM   #65 
                 - You didn't answer the question hotshot.....  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 09:30 PM   #83 
                    - I said it was up to you  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:31 PM   #85 
                       - Ah so you make much noise  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 10:00 PM   #111 
           - That's fine - but what is the rate of creation of new technologies...  laura888   Oct-18-03 08:52 PM   #38 
              - Kind of up to you isn't it?  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:55 PM   #43 
              - that's the key  Vikingking66   Oct-18-03 08:56 PM   #44 
                 - Exactly  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:57 PM   #49 
                 - yeah, but they're not doing enough  Vikingking66   Oct-18-03 09:47 PM   #99 
                 - no - what about the low-wage workers who have been displaced?  laura888   Oct-18-03 09:03 PM   #55 
                 - What about em?  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:07 PM   #61 
                    - Blacksmiths went to work at the car factories...  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 09:18 PM   #71 
                    - No...many of them started garages  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:23 PM   #74 
                       - Gosh thanks for clearing that up for me!  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 10:05 PM   #112 
                    - They became auto mechanics, of course  jmowreader   Oct-18-03 10:09 PM   #114 
                 - How often do things like the internet revolution come along  Classical_Liberal   Oct-19-03 01:32 PM   #195 
        - So that's why we have full employment  kayell   Oct-18-03 08:42 PM   #25 
        - Your unemployment problem  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:43 PM   #27 
        - We 'NEED' trade ......  Trajan   Oct-19-03 01:12 AM   #174 
  - Take a look at the labels on your clothes, or the label  BillyBunter   Oct-18-03 08:57 PM   #46 
     - Baloney  cprise   Oct-18-03 10:10 PM   #116 
     - Your post is utterly nonsensical.  BillyBunter   Oct-18-03 10:22 PM   #120 
     - Let me clarify  cprise   Oct-18-03 11:00 PM   #139 
        - But they didn't.  BillyBunter   Oct-18-03 11:05 PM   # 
           - Sure, just look at all the Japanese car companies :-)  cprise   Oct-18-03 11:12 PM   #148 
              - You're back to making no sense.  BillyBunter   Oct-18-03 11:22 PM   #155 
                 - I never said we needed more protectionism  cprise   Oct-18-03 11:55 PM   #165 
                    - Then you aren't saying anything at all.  BillyBunter   Oct-19-03 12:20 AM   #167 
     - Yeah, funny thing  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-18-03 10:23 PM   #121 
        - Sorry, you're wrong.  BillyBunter   Oct-18-03 10:44 PM   #130 
           - Will you "free" trade types  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-18-03 10:56 PM   #135 
           - The other person claimed free trade was  BillyBunter   Oct-18-03 11:15 PM   #152 
           - It gives trade priority to their economic neighbors  cprise   Oct-18-03 11:38 PM   #160 
           - All Central American countries have free trade agreements with Mexico...  arcos   Oct-19-03 08:23 AM   #186 
           - That's a lie the East Asian economies ARE protectionist  Classical_Liberal   Oct-19-03 01:37 PM   #196 
     - Too bad my husband, a skilled tradesman, will be unemployed  MrsGrumpy   Oct-18-03 10:30 PM   #124 
        - I'm a trained economist.  BillyBunter   Oct-18-03 11:02 PM   #141 
           - I'm a trained mother, I know what I live day to day.  MrsGrumpy   Oct-18-03 11:05 PM   #144 
           - So am I.  BillyBunter   Oct-18-03 11:23 PM   #156 
              - I am glad you are sorry that free trade in the way our  MrsGrumpy   Oct-18-03 11:28 PM   #158 
                 - You are assuming protectionism would improve your life,  BillyBunter   Oct-19-03 12:39 AM   #171 
                    - Korea, Japan and China  Classical_Liberal   Oct-19-03 01:40 PM   #198 
           - Call it a 'tendency'  cprise   Oct-18-03 11:09 PM   #147 
              - When you have no arguments, just accuse the other person of being  BillyBunter   Oct-18-03 11:17 PM   #153 
                 - More constructive than labeling us conspiracy theorists  cprise   Oct-18-03 11:26 PM   #157 
  - Because Free Trade as Practiced Today  mhr   Oct-18-03 08:23 PM   #4 
  - Depends on what you mean by it.  quaker bill   Oct-18-03 08:24 PM   #5 
  - ethics  amlouden   Oct-18-03 08:26 PM   #8 
     - interestingly,  Vikingking66   Oct-18-03 09:00 PM   #51 
        - Right  quaker bill   Oct-18-03 09:54 PM   #106 
  - OMG, composed thinker is back. Composed, what 'great things'????  sgr2   Oct-18-03 08:24 PM   #6 
  - Apparently none of you are aware  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:28 PM   #10 
  - "Everyone in the world has lost jobs to the southern US?"  alcuno   Oct-18-03 08:57 PM   #48 
     - yup, and that's in the areas that are doing ok  kayell   Oct-18-03 09:19 PM   #72 
     - The southern US is only  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:25 PM   #76 
        - Louisiana - 7.2%, Mississippi - 6.3%, Texas - 6.6%, North  alcuno   Oct-18-03 09:45 PM   #96 
        - Again you make allot of noise  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 10:19 PM   #118 
  - Cos it ain't "free"?  tinnypriv   Oct-18-03 08:32 PM   #12 
  - It 's free in what it covers  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:34 PM   #14 
     - LOL  tinnypriv   Oct-18-03 09:01 PM   #54 
     - Oh! You don't get to rant  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:05 PM   #59 
        - Thus far you have supplied no facts  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 10:33 PM   #125 
     - Maple...  coralrf   Oct-18-03 09:24 PM   #75 
        - Pay attention please  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:28 PM   #81 
        - "borders don't matter anymore"  cprise   Oct-18-03 10:27 PM   #123 
        - absolutely!  laura888   Oct-18-03 10:33 PM   #126 
        - "I work in finance and trade"  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-18-03 10:41 PM   #129 
        - Maple or sour grapes?  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 10:48 PM   #132 
        - I would agree with you...  arcos   Oct-19-03 08:29 AM   #187 
  - Do you support FAIR trade?  Abe Linkman   Oct-18-03 08:33 PM   #13 
  - Clinton thot it was fair trade  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:35 PM   #15 
  - Because "Free Trade" is only free...  Darranar   Oct-18-03 08:36 PM   #16 
  - Forget the ideology  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:42 PM   #26 
     - When did I mention NAFTA?  Darranar   Oct-18-03 09:18 PM   #69 
     - You lump all trade  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:30 PM   #84 
        - Very little environmental regulation or labor regulation...  Darranar   Oct-18-03 09:42 PM   #93 
        - Chapter 11, what the hell was that?  Classical_Liberal   Oct-19-03 01:48 PM   #199 
     - Free trade means no Stumpage subsidies  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 10:55 PM   #134 
  - So far, have not seen any good things; however  juajen   Oct-18-03 08:37 PM   #18 
  - Amen! Go Dennis!  laura888   Oct-18-03 08:38 PM   #20 
  - NAFTA and the WTO  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:44 PM   #29 
  - so what does the USA make then?  Vikingking66   Oct-18-03 09:04 PM   #57 
  - Up to you  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:09 PM   #62 
     - but that's the problem  Vikingking66   Oct-18-03 09:49 PM   #102 
        - Use those fancy new technologies to make  InkAddict   Oct-19-03 12:23 AM   #168 
           - dude, tone it down  Vikingking66   Oct-19-03 01:11 PM   #189 
  - Actually, there are things Made in the USA  juajen   Oct-19-03 01:54 AM   #178 
  - One of the many reasons I support Kucinich  kayell   Oct-18-03 08:52 PM   #40 
     - Kucinich is clueless  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:56 PM   #45 
  - Im for free trade  Bertrand   Oct-18-03 08:38 PM   #19 
  - That's why 146 countries  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:45 PM   #31 
  - Free trade ain't free...  DoNotRefill   Oct-18-03 08:38 PM   #21 
  - Free trade means no tariffs  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:46 PM   #32 
     - Want to see foreign countrys bellow like branded calfs?  DoNotRefill   Oct-18-03 10:10 PM   #115 
  - Because of things like this  Tinoire   Oct-18-03 08:41 PM   #23 
  - Sorry...wrong topic  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:47 PM   #33 
     - Change that to corporate imperialism  kayell   Oct-18-03 08:54 PM   #42 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-18-03 09:15 PM   #66 
     - "Globalization is just another name for submission and domination"  laura888   Oct-18-03 09:18 PM   #70 
     - The UN is globalization  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:34 PM   #88 
     - Maple- that explains why you're missing the whole point  Tinoire   Oct-18-03 09:25 PM   #79 
        - Agreed!  Darranar   Oct-18-03 09:29 PM   #82 
        - You are more than a little Americacentric!  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:36 PM   #90 
           - She's blaming the US...  Darranar   Oct-18-03 09:46 PM   #97 
           - And it is precisely for those other 6 billion humans out there  Tinoire   Oct-18-03 10:21 PM   #119 
              - THANK YOU!  Darranar   Oct-18-03 10:27 PM   #122 
              - Yah know Tinoire...I don't agree with you  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 11:41 PM   #161 
                 - Shucks- Thanks  Tinoire   Oct-19-03 10:41 AM   #188 
  - Well, not everyone  cally   Oct-18-03 08:42 PM   #24 
  - Because "free trade"  indypaul   Oct-18-03 08:44 PM   #28 
  - Who signed the deals??  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:49 PM   #34 
  - We are all brothers and sisters  pinkpops   Oct-18-03 08:50 PM   #35 
  - Well the brothers and sisters  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:53 PM   #41 
     - True BUT......  tkmorris   Oct-18-03 09:16 PM   #67 
     - Oh cut it out  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:21 PM   #73 
        - My, aren't we offensive?  tkmorris   Oct-19-03 02:30 PM   #200 
     - Purchased, just like our politicians here in the US  cprise   Oct-18-03 09:48 PM   #100 
        - yeah. what you said  pinkpops   Oct-18-03 10:05 PM   #113 
  - What are those great things? Have you noticed that small businesses  leesa   Oct-18-03 08:51 PM   #37 
  - Small businesses are the backbone  Maple   Oct-18-03 08:58 PM   #50 
  - the problem is this  Vikingking66   Oct-18-03 08:52 PM   #39 
  - NAFTA, FTAAA are NOT about free trade  Gringo   Oct-18-03 08:57 PM   #47 
  - Focus here Gringo  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:00 PM   #52 
  - Try reading the "NAFTA at Seven" paper  tinnypriv   Oct-18-03 09:12 PM   #63 
  - Don't bother  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:17 PM   #68 
  - The EPI is propaganda?  tinnypriv   Oct-18-03 09:25 PM   #77 
     - I AM an economist  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:38 PM   #91 
     - It was written in 2001...  Darranar   Oct-18-03 09:44 PM   #95 
        - Actually....  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 11:44 PM   #163 
           - So in 2001 it was seven!  Darranar   Oct-19-03 12:41 AM   #172 
              - Indeed  RapidCreek   Oct-19-03 01:25 AM   #177 
     - I totally agree  juajen   Oct-19-03 02:19 AM   #181 
  - In case anyone's interested...  Darranar   Oct-18-03 09:43 PM   #94 
     - Excellent Article and links! Thanks for posting this  Tinoire   Oct-18-03 10:39 PM   #127 
  - Free trade means free of subsidies  RapidCreek   Oct-18-03 11:45 PM   #164 
  - What Gringo said.  LWolf   Oct-18-03 09:01 PM   #53 
  - Free trade coffee is OK....  Superfly   Oct-18-03 09:04 PM   #58 
  - The coffee shops advertise FAIR trade coffee  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-18-03 09:50 PM   #103 
  - I'm not against free trade.  ezmojason   Oct-18-03 09:06 PM   #60 
  - please explain how the U.S. is going to regulate...  laura888   Oct-18-03 09:12 PM   #64 
     - Put in the treaties...  ezmojason   Oct-18-03 09:26 PM   #80 
        - yes- this is a good idea  laura888   Oct-18-03 09:33 PM   #86 
           - on edit, I mean "U.N" not "U.S." n/t  laura888   Oct-18-03 09:34 PM   #87 
           - Actually, their competition would be the one to keep up with them  juajen   Oct-19-03 02:28 AM   #183 
  - Would everyone buy  Booger   Oct-18-03 09:25 PM   #78 
  - Because the free trade agreements  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-18-03 09:35 PM   #89 
  - well put, Lydia!  laura888   Oct-18-03 09:39 PM   #92 
  - It is Not Unheard-of for a CEO to Dock His Own Pay  AndyTiedye   Oct-18-03 10:58 PM   #137 
     - Well he's the exception  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-18-03 11:02 PM   #142 
     - His Salary May Be a Dollar  Paulie   Oct-18-03 11:42 PM   #162 
  - Sorry guys...but none of the immediate preceeding posts to me are true  Maple   Oct-18-03 09:46 PM   #98 
     - Wow- I see your background in economics also makes you  Cat Atomic   Oct-18-03 09:48 PM   #101 
     - Well, I knew a lot of economists in graduate school  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-18-03 09:55 PM   #107 
     - LOL! And I'm impressed by the fact that  cprise   Oct-18-03 09:55 PM   #108 
     - Thanks for yet another strawman...  Darranar   Oct-18-03 09:53 PM   #105 
  - I support it  sujan   Oct-18-03 09:53 PM   #104 
  - "Free Trade" is a Misnomer  durutti   Oct-18-03 09:56 PM   #109 
  - I also support globalization......  DemEx_pat   Oct-19-03 02:38 AM   #184 
  - I am not so much against free trade, any other way than how  MrsGrumpy   Oct-18-03 09:58 PM   #110 
  - And Your Story is The Reason I'm Against Free Trade  mhr   Oct-18-03 10:16 PM   #117 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-18-03 10:40 PM   #128 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Oct-18-03 10:44 PM   #131 
  - The world market and free trade does not work  FDRrocks   Oct-18-03 10:50 PM   #133 
  - People are against free trade because...  Chants   Oct-18-03 10:56 PM   #136 
  - I think it might work...  FDRrocks   Oct-18-03 11:02 PM   #140 
  - I disagree...  Darranar   Oct-18-03 11:09 PM   #146 
  - For all those interested: My opinions on this issue in full  Darranar   Oct-18-03 10:59 PM   #138 
  - There is a Bigger Risk to Our Ability to Compete Globally  AndyTiedye   Oct-18-03 11:13 PM   #150 
     - That's a good point...  Darranar   Oct-18-03 11:14 PM   #151 
  - We like American jobs going to Americans rather than to foreign  genius   Oct-18-03 11:04 PM   #143 
  - Of course, if the corporations really wanted to economize  Lydia Leftcoast   Oct-18-03 11:09 PM   #145 
     - CEO's are part of the investor class  cprise   Oct-18-03 11:19 PM   #154 
  - too many Gephardt supporters???  burr   Oct-18-03 11:12 PM   #149 
  - Umm I frankly don't understand what it is...  Hippo_Tron   Oct-18-03 11:31 PM   #159 
  - The first thing to remember is it's almost entirely unlike the EC  cprise   Oct-19-03 12:17 AM   #166 
  - not against "free trade" i just want FAIR TRADE!!!  ElsewheresDaughter   Oct-19-03 12:30 AM   #169 
  - Against Free trade, but not against FAIR TRADE.  Virginian   Oct-19-03 12:42 AM   #173 
  - Most are for 'FAIR TRADE'  JCMach1   Oct-19-03 01:15 AM   #175 
  - the answer is obvious  liberalcapitalist   Oct-19-03 01:21 AM   #176 
  - because 'FREE Trade' = Corporate CONTROLLED Trade  rman   Oct-19-03 02:00 AM   #179 
  - Why do you always start threads and then never come back?  Booberdawg   Oct-19-03 02:18 AM   #180 
  - punch and run baby...punch and run  RapidCreek   Oct-19-03 02:23 AM   #182 
  - Not at all against free trade  Gore1FL   Oct-19-03 03:06 AM   #185 
  - because it ain't free and it's a bad trade.  leftofthedial   Oct-19-03 01:13 PM   #190 
  - I'm in favor of free trade  WillyBrandt   Oct-19-03 01:17 PM   #191 
  - I don't see where it has given us any great things  Classical_Liberal   Oct-19-03 01:23 PM   #192 
  - Because with free trade we will lose jobs  Kamika   Oct-19-03 01:38 PM   #197 
 

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