Donna Zen
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Sat Oct-04-03 02:11 PM
Response to Original message |
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I liked that the articles were prior to all the political buzz and contemporary to the NATO experience. You're right, the shift in perspective allows for a greater depth in reading the new information because of the subtle contrasts of the reporting.
This bit:
Some in the military liken Clark's predicament to the one generals faced during Vietnam. In his recent book Dereliction of Duty--which has achieved a cult following among many junior officers--fast-rising officer H.R. McMaster portrays the Vietnam-era generals as a cowardly lot who chose to execute incompetent civilian orders rather than resign in protest. Indeed, the only thing that might endear Clark to his critics at this point would be his resignation.
Fortunately, Clark is not about to throw his stars on the table in a fit of pique. That would amount to ratifying a steady and dangerous trend in civilian-military relations over the past decade--namely, the loss of civilian control. It is true that Clark is taking orders from a civilian leadership--both in the United States and in Europe--that remains maddeningly equivocal. But it is just as relevant that Clark is contending with an increasingly independent military brass whose obsession with avoiding another Vietnam has helped trap the Clinton administration into avoiding ground troops, thereby rendering defeat more likely. Clark's impressive record suggests that, given the right tools, he is one of the few military leaders--or perhaps the only one--who could make a go of it in the Balkans. And yet, for all the talk of Clark being Clinton's pet, the irony is that Clinton's own inept strategy may end up delivering Clark into the hands of his Pentagon enemies.
Crystal ball working overtime.
|
| -Clark is the US's most highly decorated officer since Eisenhower |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 12:23 PM |
#0 |
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Over/Under Is 5.5 Posts |
DoveTurnedHawk |
Oct-04-03 12:24 PM |
#1 |
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Yep. Counting down - 5...4...3...2...1... |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 12:35 PM |
#6 |
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that's nice |
bloom |
Oct-04-03 12:24 PM |
#2 |
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I don't want a Christmas tree full of "decorations" for pres. |
loudsue |
Oct-04-03 12:27 PM |
#3 |
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Ding Ding Ding! Who's Got the Under! |
DoveTurnedHawk |
Oct-04-03 12:30 PM |
#5 |
  -
Sad but true. |
TacticalPeak |
Oct-04-03 12:46 PM |
#9 |
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That's Pretty Much How I Feel About the Most Rabid Anti-Clarkers |
DoveTurnedHawk |
Oct-04-03 12:47 PM |
#10 |
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Still notice that bash the one who asks the questions |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 02:27 AM |
#159 |
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wrong. that's not "shit" being slung, it's the truth |
dfong63 |
Oct-04-03 01:12 PM |
#16 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-04-03 01:39 PM |
#21 |
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Are they cutting and pasting |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:05 PM |
#90 |
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Just one question. |
elperromagico |
Oct-04-03 04:21 PM |
#72 |
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I don't hate Dean |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:07 PM |
#91 |
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Glad to read that |
elperromagico |
Oct-05-03 06:25 PM |
#148 |
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"A Christmas Tree Full Of Decorations" |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 11:00 PM |
#104 |
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Party hacks are bad presidents. |
maha |
Oct-05-03 10:29 AM |
#132 |
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Great post, IMO |
knowledgeispower |
Oct-05-03 01:48 PM |
#141 |
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General Clark will make a fantastic Vice President of the United States |
w4rma |
Oct-04-03 12:27 PM |
#4 |
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I disagree |
Pastiche423 |
Oct-04-03 12:38 PM |
#7 |
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Don't worry |
WillyBrandt |
Oct-04-03 12:48 PM |
#11 |
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The problem is... |
SadEagle |
Oct-04-03 12:41 PM |
#8 |
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here here.... |
gully |
Oct-05-03 06:23 PM |
#147 |
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Interesting site, thanks, but I'd go easy on the 'mo medals' angle. |
TacticalPeak |
Oct-04-03 12:59 PM |
#12 |
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and you will see the issue of whether some of the medals were properly |
IndianaGreen |
Oct-04-03 01:08 PM |
#14 |
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I am sure republicans and greens will happily do this... |
Dr Fate |
Oct-05-03 06:37 PM |
#150 |
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It wasn't really my intention to focus on the medals thing, |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 01:38 PM |
#20 |
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At least, Eisenhower defeated Hitler and Mussolini, 2 of the most evil |
Larkspur |
Oct-04-03 01:02 PM |
#13 |
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considering your candidate and ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 01:40 PM |
#23 |
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You mean his service working in hospitals.... |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 02:33 AM |
#160 |
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I'm shocked |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:09 PM |
#92 |
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I never ran for political office, but |
Larkspur |
Oct-05-03 05:49 PM |
#145 |
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No, I was not referring to Dean. |
SWPAdem |
Oct-05-03 06:47 PM |
#154 |
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And that's why the FIRST run isn't for president. |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 02:36 AM |
#161 |
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What? Milosevic not bad enough for you? You his fan too? |
robbedvoter |
Oct-04-03 10:31 PM |
#97 |
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Eisenhower never beat Hitler or Mussolini... |
rasputin1952 |
Oct-04-03 10:59 PM |
#103 |
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So what? Douglas MacArthur was plenty decorated, too. |
RichM |
Oct-04-03 01:10 PM |
#15 |
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bingo - did clark have more medals than franco or pinochet? |
dfong63 |
Oct-04-03 01:13 PM |
#17 |
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again ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 01:41 PM |
#25 |
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the point is that medals don't prove someone will be a good pres |
dfong63 |
Oct-04-03 09:52 PM |
#87 |
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And running a small state doesn't either |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:11 PM |
#93 |
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Yeah, because we know none of our presidents started in small |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 02:41 AM |
#163 |
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Franco... now that's a name I haven't heard in a long, long time |
IndianaGreen |
Oct-04-03 03:55 PM |
#68 |
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need i mention, castro, musharraf, suharto, rios montt, sharon, ... |
dfong63 |
Oct-04-03 09:58 PM |
#89 |
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I "Democrats" like you who denegrade people for their military service |
Brian Sweat |
Oct-04-03 11:46 PM |
#111 |
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Notice the meme spin... this is the new one popping up... |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 02:44 AM |
#164 |
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Well he could ask Henry Kissinger.... |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 02:38 AM |
#162 |
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RichM ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 01:41 PM |
#24 |
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i don't think you can be objective about clark |
noiretblu |
Oct-04-03 01:46 PM |
#27 |
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oddly enough ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 01:51 PM |
#30 |
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i'm not related to him |
noiretblu |
Oct-04-03 02:01 PM |
#37 |
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Hehe. That's too funny. |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 01:51 PM |
#31 |
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she's saying that because he's ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 01:53 PM |
#32 |
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Ah, a little intrafamily warfare. Hehe. |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 02:00 PM |
#36 |
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no, no, no ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 02:02 PM |
#38 |
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Damn, oops. |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 02:15 PM |
#47 |
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um, yes...don't you think your relationship to clark |
noiretblu |
Oct-04-03 02:06 PM |
#40 |
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I have noted that ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 02:10 PM |
#43 |
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LOL...you've GOT to be kidding! |
noiretblu |
Oct-04-03 02:16 PM |
#49 |
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frankly ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 02:20 PM |
#53 |
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Here's a clue on objectivity |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:16 PM |
#94 |
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the voice of objectivity has spoken!!!! |
noiretblu |
Oct-04-03 11:36 PM |
#109 |
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I made my choice months ago |
SWPAdem |
Oct-05-03 12:46 AM |
#115 |
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ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ |
noiretblu |
Oct-05-03 01:08 AM |
#119 |
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Please point out the hard evidence against... |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 03:02 AM |
#167 |
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I don't base my support of a candidate on the candidate's supporters |
Larkspur |
Oct-05-03 06:01 PM |
#146 |
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Did I say that I based my choice on the opposition to Clark? |
SWPAdem |
Oct-05-03 06:52 PM |
#155 |
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I've known of his relationship to Clark, and |
juajen |
Oct-05-03 12:50 AM |
#116 |
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I notice you avoid answering questions almost as well as your cousin |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 02:50 AM |
#166 |
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Cousin... that explains a lot. |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 02:48 AM |
#165 |
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i'm saying: pepperbelly is related to clark |
noiretblu |
Oct-04-03 02:13 PM |
#46 |
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so according to you ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 02:15 PM |
#48 |
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in your case, i think abstaining is prudent nt |
noiretblu |
Oct-04-03 02:18 PM |
#52 |
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so when ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 02:20 PM |
#54 |
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if i was related to sharpton, would you question |
noiretblu |
Oct-04-03 02:30 PM |
#57 |
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then do it on the content if you can .... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 02:31 PM |
#58 |
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you questioned RichM's objectivity in this quote |
noiretblu |
Oct-04-03 02:54 PM |
#63 |
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"The fucking audacity of you!" - methinks you protest a tad too much |
thebigidea |
Oct-04-03 05:49 PM |
#75 |
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Of course not... |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 03:08 AM |
#168 |
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Yeah, now I understand. |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 02:17 PM |
#51 |
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Well then, let me refresh your memory, Mr. Pepperbelly. |
RichM |
Oct-04-03 03:56 PM |
#69 |
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Ah, questioning my intelligence. How mature and open-minded of you. |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 01:49 PM |
#29 |
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RichM certainly |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 01:54 PM |
#33 |
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You'll note that my "questioning your intelligence" occurred only AFTER |
RichM |
Oct-04-03 04:10 PM |
#70 |
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Slander? Do you even have a clue what slander is? |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 08:33 PM |
#79 |
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Ah, the irony |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:21 PM |
#95 |
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Small Point- Rich |
DemocratSinceBirth |
Oct-04-03 06:01 PM |
#76 |
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Yeah, maybe that wasn't such a great example. MacArthur is much |
RichM |
Oct-04-03 06:14 PM |
#77 |
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I'm an old enlisted man |
chaumont58 |
Oct-04-03 01:25 PM |
#18 |
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Re: CIB |
TacticalPeak |
Oct-04-03 01:28 PM |
#19 |
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"Faked," huh? Does this look faked to you? |
Kahuna |
Oct-04-03 01:39 PM |
#22 |
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Do you understand what a Purple Heart medal is for? |
chaumont58 |
Oct-04-03 02:03 PM |
#39 |
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Clark has a Purple Heart, as well. |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 02:09 PM |
#42 |
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OK, I'll research it for you: |
TacticalPeak |
Oct-04-03 02:26 PM |
#55 |
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Yes. I understand. Apparently you do not. |
Kahuna |
Oct-04-03 05:46 PM |
#73 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-04-03 09:10 PM |
#81 |
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the combat wounds ... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 01:42 PM |
#26 |
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My post began with...... |
chaumont58 |
Oct-04-03 11:14 PM |
#106 |
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Get used to it is...Clark's Corps are on auto meme at this point.. |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 03:14 AM |
#169 |
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My subject line is misleading, I'll admit that. |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 01:57 PM |
#35 |
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I can relate... |
rasputin1952 |
Oct-04-03 11:23 PM |
#108 |
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i'm trying to get a handle on the personality of a person for whom |
bearfartinthewoods |
Oct-04-03 01:46 PM |
#28 |
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Someone w/ too much testosterone |
Pastiche423 |
Oct-04-03 01:55 PM |
#34 |
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It's going to matter in the general election |
union_maid |
Oct-04-03 02:12 PM |
#45 |
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A plan? |
Pastiche423 |
Oct-04-03 02:32 PM |
#59 |
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and it will be Wesley Clark who will win .... |
Pepperbelly |
Oct-04-03 02:34 PM |
#60 |
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Do you bother to read anything or do you just knee-jerk react to Clark? |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 02:55 PM |
#64 |
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Depends on what you mean by sort out.... |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 03:19 AM |
#170 |
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I don't think I ever said it was important. |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 02:07 PM |
#41 |
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Great Link! |
Donna Zen |
Oct-04-03 02:11 PM |
#44 |
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The international, contemporary aspect is what I was shooting for. |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 02:48 PM |
#61 |
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Ah, yet another reason not to vote for him n/t |
Eloriel |
Oct-04-03 02:17 PM |
#50 |
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Did Your Knee Just Jerk Itself Out of Socket? |
DoveTurnedHawk |
Oct-04-03 02:28 PM |
#56 |
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Disgusting |
WillyBrandt |
Oct-04-03 02:51 PM |
#62 |
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To some people, the only issue that matters with Clark is that |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 02:56 PM |
#65 |
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Didn't you get the memo? |
Rowdyboy |
Oct-04-03 03:47 PM |
#66 |
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And it makes so much sense! |
boxster |
Oct-04-03 08:37 PM |
#80 |
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And insulted every veteran that protested this war, |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:32 PM |
#98 |
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Eloriel I am far from being anywhere near a Clark supporter |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-04-03 04:19 PM |
#71 |
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Yes, John |
Pastiche423 |
Oct-04-03 09:18 PM |
#82 |
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I will |
JohnKleeb |
Oct-04-03 11:41 PM |
#110 |
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I hear Nader is running again. You can vote for him again. |
Kahuna |
Oct-04-03 05:48 PM |
#74 |
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Ah! That explains it |
retyred |
Oct-05-03 01:27 AM |
#121 |
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this "tactic" of yours is BULLSHIT...i am calling you on this AGAIN |
noiretblu |
Oct-05-03 04:34 AM |
#129 |
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Sorry I forgot.....IMHO! |
retyred |
Oct-05-03 10:12 AM |
#131 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-05-03 10:33 AM |
#133 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-05-03 01:32 PM |
#137 |
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Wow dude! |
retyred |
Oct-05-03 01:43 PM |
#140 |
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Ah, but we have only your word that you voted for Gore |
SWPAdem |
Oct-05-03 01:08 PM |
#134 |
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what "proof" does anyone have about your "democratic credentials?" |
noiretblu |
Oct-05-03 01:35 PM |
#138 |
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I was simply pointing out an argument that is used |
SWPAdem |
Oct-05-03 06:57 PM |
#156 |
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full of |
noiretblu |
Oct-06-03 02:12 AM |
#157 |
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Point counter Point |
retyred |
Oct-05-03 01:19 PM |
#135 |
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what "suspicion"...THAT I VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS!!!!!!!!! |
noiretblu |
Oct-05-03 01:30 PM |
#136 |
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According to you |
retyred |
Oct-05-03 01:40 PM |
#139 |
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incite what, in my case: VOTING FOR DEMOCRATS? |
noiretblu |
Oct-05-03 02:02 PM |
#142 |
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Someone twisting your arm? |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:27 PM |
#96 |
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what would be said if none of this impressed me personally? |
Aidoneus |
Oct-04-03 03:55 PM |
#67 |
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ark is the US's most highly decorated officer since Eisenhower |
RetroLounge |
Oct-04-03 06:21 PM |
#78 |
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Nice, but army medals don't impress me. |
ozone_man |
Oct-04-03 09:22 PM |
#83 |
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Got bad news for you |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:35 PM |
#99 |
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Actually, I couldn't care less if people on DU "aren't impressed" |
incapsulated |
Oct-04-03 09:39 PM |
#84 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Oct-04-03 09:43 PM |
#85 |
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I'm not impressed |
incapsulated |
Oct-04-03 09:45 PM |
#86 |
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How often |
Pastiche423 |
Oct-04-03 09:53 PM |
#88 |
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Gee, I was talking Clark up at church tonight |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 10:43 PM |
#101 |
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clark does not equal soldiers |
Pastiche423 |
Oct-04-03 10:50 PM |
#102 |
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Yes, he most certainly does. |
SWPAdem |
Oct-04-03 11:08 PM |
#105 |
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I see you din't get it |
Pastiche423 |
Oct-04-03 11:57 PM |
#112 |
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No, you don't get it |
SWPAdem |
Oct-05-03 12:50 AM |
#117 |
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There is no other way to say it |
Pastiche423 |
Oct-05-03 02:39 AM |
#123 |
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And I'm sure that his history will be well accepted. |
SWPAdem |
Oct-05-03 02:45 AM |
#124 |
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That's one of the current shut up the critics memes |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 03:31 AM |
#171 |
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People on DU ARE IMPRESSED - don't judge by a few with a chip on their |
robbedvoter |
Oct-04-03 10:41 PM |
#100 |
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Good point about Europe |
RandomUser |
Oct-05-03 02:53 AM |
#126 |
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Very favorable, although cautious, on Dutch media |
DemEx_pat |
Oct-05-03 03:58 AM |
#128 |
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No he isn't! |
FDRrocks |
Oct-04-03 11:17 PM |
#107 |
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Wow...HOT THREAD!... |
rasputin1952 |
Oct-05-03 12:03 AM |
#113 |
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Informative and well said |
RandomUser |
Oct-05-03 03:05 AM |
#127 |
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Thank you for taking the time to read my post... |
rasputin1952 |
Oct-05-03 08:45 AM |
#130 |
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He is indeed the ultimate mercenary -- |
stickdog |
Oct-05-03 12:10 AM |
#114 |
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How about some hard evidence stickdog |
SWPAdem |
Oct-05-03 12:54 AM |
#118 |
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Let's see. He lobbied to sell USA taxpayers a terrorist-helping |
stickdog |
Oct-05-03 01:24 AM |
#120 |
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I said hard evidence, |
SWPAdem |
Oct-05-03 02:47 AM |
#125 |
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Show me hard evidence Clark is a good guy |
knowledgeispower |
Oct-05-03 02:06 PM |
#144 |
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The burden of proof is on the accuser... |
Dr Fate |
Oct-05-03 06:41 PM |
#151 |
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WHat part of his post is untrue... and be specific |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 03:36 AM |
#173 |
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Stickdog is simply expressing a common fear of Clark |
knowledgeispower |
Oct-05-03 02:04 PM |
#143 |
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"Common fear" needs to be backed with "hard evidence" |
Dr Fate |
Oct-05-03 06:42 PM |
#152 |
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How do we know that of anybody? |
maha |
Oct-05-03 06:46 PM |
#153 |
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Tell me what impresses you about CLark being a lobbyist for Kissinger? |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 03:38 AM |
#174 |
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Here ya go...right here. CLark supporting killing journalists/civilians |
TLM |
Oct-06-03 03:33 AM |
#172 |
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Yeah, yeah , yeah. That and two dollars............ |
fla nocount |
Oct-05-03 01:53 AM |
#122 |
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Then he'd make a good Secretary of State... |
gully |
Oct-05-03 06:34 PM |
#149 |
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*this thread was brought to you by |
whirlygigspin |
Oct-06-03 02:25 AM |
#158 |