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Reply #49: You set up a strawman argument [View All]

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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-02-05 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #25
49. You set up a strawman argument
You assume that all socialists naturally support state socialism, but that is far from the case. You neglect the school of thought under socialism that advocates a form of socialism outside the state or some highly centralized decision-making structure. With the socialism you speak of, all we would be doing is replacing private owners of the means of production with bureaucrats instead.

"Meet your new boss! Same as the old one!"

The argument that bureaucrats can be removed when they abuse power is irrelevant. There will be abuses not from capitalists instead but bureaucrats, and I have not seen one argument from state socialists that could adequately address such a threat aside from "electing new leaders," and I don't buy that one because we elect poor ones under the current economic order. Why would it be different under any other? Human greed will still exist in socialist societies; it's just that greed itself won't be encouraged as a means of getting ahead, building the better mousetrap, or finding the cure for cancer for the sake of patenting it and making a profit off it by charging all of humanity a fee for the privilege, not the right, to have access to what you own.

If you ask me, the economy rightly belongs to the US people, not to a select class of owners who determines what gets produced, how much is produced, how many workers get to produce it, and how much (or how little) to pay the workers. However, I'd qualify the statement by stating that socialism can only come about when the people choose socialism. It cannot come from the state. People must be active participants in the economic decisions that affect them, not passive participants under state socialism. They must use their own heads and their own hands collectively to liberate themselves from the "capitalist wilderness."

If there is one thing I disagree with other socialists on this board, it is over how to get there, not the destination itself. I'm a libertarian socialist, not a Marxist or a member of any other school of socialism that advocates change through highly centralized decision-making structures (the state) democratic or otherwise. You can also call me an anarcho-socialist or even a liberal socialist or a left libertarian.
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  -Is it time to nationalize certain industries? KansDem  Aug-02-05 09:34 AM   #0 
  - I think all industries should be nationalized.  K-W   Aug-02-05 09:43 AM   #1 
  - Yeah, this has worked so well in the nations that tried it.  eallen   Aug-02-05 09:51 AM   #3 
  - Nobody wants your sympathy.  K-W   Aug-02-05 10:08 AM   #6 
     - Touche`  Blue State Native   Aug-02-05 10:11 AM   #7 
     - You're the one standing in the way of progress.  eallen   Aug-02-05 10:16 AM   #9 
     - The reason the right is able to smear the left  K-W   Aug-02-05 10:26 AM   #13 
        - Democratic-republican governance doesn't require destroying capitalism.  eallen   Aug-02-05 10:46 AM   #14 
           - Huh?  K-W   Aug-02-05 11:00 AM   #18 
           - Name the western nations that don't have capitalist economies.  eallen   Aug-02-05 11:06 AM   #21 
              - There are no pure capitalist economies.  K-W   Aug-02-05 11:16 AM   #26 
                 - Cuba is one of the few economies that has nationalized most business.  eallen   Aug-02-05 11:40 AM   #44 
                    - So you want to generalize all nationalism together.  K-W   Aug-02-05 11:49 AM   #50 
                    - but what happens when the national systems we currently have  northzax   Aug-02-05 01:54 PM   #95 
                    - The nation isnt the federal government, the nation is we the people.  K-W   Aug-02-05 02:01 PM   #97 
                       - still, someone actually runs it, right?  northzax   Aug-02-05 02:05 PM   #99 
                          - I dont know that one person should run anything.  K-W   Aug-02-05 02:16 PM   #102 
                    - I have to say I am confused..  KC_25   Aug-02-05 03:49 PM   #128 
                       - Indeed.  K-W   Aug-02-05 04:02 PM   #130 
                          - f you say so..but  KC_25   Aug-02-05 05:27 PM   #134 
                             - You are missing the point.  K-W   Aug-02-05 06:38 PM   #141 
                    - It may well lay the golden egg  julianer   Aug-02-05 04:09 PM   #132 
           - Whether there is a currently  julianer   Aug-02-05 11:08 AM   #23 
     - eallen is appealing to history, not theory  leftofthedial   Aug-02-05 11:06 AM   #20 
        - Yep. Capitalism is dynamic & constantly improving its business processes.  eallen   Aug-02-05 11:16 AM   #25 
        - bullshit. capitalism is constantly improving only one thing  leftofthedial   Aug-02-05 11:20 AM   #27 
        - Ah. That must explain why things have changed so little.  eallen   Aug-02-05 11:43 AM   #45 
           - a couple of depressions every century  leftofthedial   Aug-02-05 05:17 PM   #133 
        - Liberalism does not mean economic control by the wealthy.  K-W   Aug-02-05 11:25 AM   #31 
        - And the liberal nations without a capitalist economy are...?  eallen   Aug-02-05 11:46 AM   #48 
           - You are using the term "liberal" in a way that spits in history's face.  K-W   Aug-02-05 11:53 AM   #51 
              - Nay. I use it in tradition of Locke, Jefferson, Dewey, and Rawls.  eallen   Aug-02-05 12:21 PM   #61 
                 - I have no interest in playing the label game.  K-W   Aug-02-05 12:30 PM   #63 
                    - That means most liberals in modern history weren't liberal in your view.  eallen   Aug-02-05 12:46 PM   #70 
                       - You think those people supported the inequality of wealth?  K-W   Aug-02-05 12:50 PM   #73 
                          - Capitalism guarantees inequality of wealth.  eallen   Aug-02-05 01:05 PM   #80 
                             - Its funny you should mention logic.  K-W   Aug-02-05 01:13 PM   #86 
                             - My claims are quite different from what you try to make them.  eallen   Aug-02-05 01:26 PM   #89 
                                - I guess you are right, you never even tried to prove your claims.  K-W   Aug-02-05 01:40 PM   #91 
                                   - Which of those liberals did not support capitalism?  eallen   Aug-02-05 02:12 PM   #100 
                                      - You have provided no evidence that they support it.  K-W   Aug-02-05 02:23 PM   #104 
                             - Capitalism is codified  sintax   Aug-02-05 02:17 PM   #103 
        - You set up a strawman argument  Selatius   Aug-02-05 11:47 AM   #49 
        - The libertarian socialists and right-wing libertarian share a fallacy.  eallen   Aug-02-05 12:14 PM   #59 
           - It's not a fallacy, at least in my opinion  Selatius   Aug-02-05 01:47 PM   #92 
              - What is the difference between you and the right-wing anarchist?  eallen   Aug-02-05 02:24 PM   #105 
                 - The issue is education  Selatius   Aug-02-05 08:05 PM   #143 
        - "Government" and "people" are different things...  Darranar   Aug-02-05 01:00 PM   #79 
           - I generally support what you say  Selatius   Aug-02-05 01:48 PM   #93 
        - We have a 100% managed economy.  K-W   Aug-02-05 11:35 AM   #39 
           - as a whole it is not managed  leftofthedial   Aug-02-05 05:30 PM   #135 
              - Yes it is.  K-W   Aug-02-05 06:48 PM   #142 
  - I agree, Democratise the Economy. Right now a super-minority controls...  JanMichael   Aug-02-05 11:03 AM   #19 
  - Ridiculous  Emendator   Aug-02-05 02:24 PM   #106 
     - You think self government is rediculous? EOM  K-W   Aug-02-05 02:37 PM   #110 
        - What you advocate  Emendator   Aug-02-05 02:53 PM   #114 
           - Actually self government is the only thing I have advocated.  K-W   Aug-02-05 02:56 PM   #115 
  - So, you want Bush and Congress in charge of your automobile insurance?  Freddie Stubbs   Aug-02-05 09:49 AM   #2 
  - No, I want the auto insurance agent who tried to convince me...  KansDem   Aug-02-05 09:58 AM   #4 
  - You think that Bush and Congress would give you a more fair deal?  Freddie Stubbs   Aug-02-05 12:03 PM   #55 
     - Bush and Congress won't give me a more fair deal...  KansDem   Aug-02-05 12:58 PM   #78 
        - So, nationalizing the industry would not make things better  Freddie Stubbs   Aug-02-05 01:10 PM   #84 
           - Sure, once we got corporate influence out of government...  KansDem   Aug-02-05 01:25 PM   #88 
              - Bush will be in charge for the next 3 1/2 years  Freddie Stubbs   Aug-02-05 01:51 PM   #94 
                 - Not if democratic principles are adhered to...  KansDem   Aug-02-05 02:26 PM   #107 
  - I don't think you'll have to worry about Bush nationalizing anything...  marmar   Aug-02-05 09:59 AM   #5 
  - All corporations are supposed to be public corporations.  K-W   Aug-02-05 10:17 AM   #10 
  - I agree with Freddie  Thrasybulus   Aug-02-05 10:18 AM   #11 
  - I can't speak for the OP...  Telly Savalas   Aug-02-05 03:44 PM   #127 
  - Only the bankrupt or corrupt ones. Oops, that's all of them. lol  Joanne98   Aug-02-05 10:16 AM   #8 
  - The question is - under what form?  julianer   Aug-02-05 10:21 AM   #12 
  - "In short they should be democratic servants of the people."  KansDem   Aug-02-05 10:48 AM   #15 
     - Auto insurance is a necessity, but autos are not?  eallen   Aug-02-05 10:58 AM   #16 
     - I lived in Europe for a few months...  KansDem   Aug-02-05 12:50 PM   #74 
     - Why shouldn't everyone decide  julianer   Aug-02-05 10:58 AM   #17 
  - In a word, no.  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 11:07 AM   #22 
  - Thanks for adding your voice of reason.  rockymountaindem   Aug-02-05 11:16 AM   #24 
  - Capitalism works?  julianer   Aug-02-05 11:23 AM   #29 
  - Hmmmm, Soviet Russia fell iafter decades of communist rule  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 11:26 AM   #34 
     - It's worked splendidly in Haiti and a whole lot of other places like...  JanMichael   Aug-02-05 12:32 PM   #65 
     - Did you bother to read  julianer   Aug-02-05 03:57 PM   #129 
  - Yeah,it's working out great.  Algorem   Aug-02-05 11:26 AM   #33 
  - It sure is, our capitalist system for the first time in history  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 11:27 AM   #35 
     - MMMM!Kool Aid!  Algorem   Aug-02-05 11:36 AM   #40 
        - Sounds to me like you're sure drinking it.  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 11:38 AM   #42 
  - Walt, all of your posts here are based on vast oversimplifications  K-W   Aug-02-05 11:32 AM   #36 
     - Okay, name an industry that would be better served by the government  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 11:37 AM   #41 
        - You are still just making broad generalizations. EOM  K-W   Aug-02-05 11:45 AM   #46 
        - Answer the question. n/t  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 12:21 PM   #60 
        - Give me a question that isnt based on broad generlizations. EOM  K-W   Aug-02-05 12:32 PM   #64 
           - can you one industry that can be run better by the government, and if so  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 12:38 PM   #67 
              - That is the same question.  K-W   Aug-02-05 12:42 PM   #69 
              - Oh, I getcha  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 12:49 PM   #72 
                 - No, I cant answer a meaningless question.  K-W   Aug-02-05 12:52 PM   #75 
                    - WTF was meaningless about it?  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 12:56 PM   #77 
                       - As I already explained, it was based on generalizations  K-W   Aug-02-05 01:07 PM   #82 
                          - Then the discussion ends here  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 01:08 PM   #83 
                             - So you are only capable of discussing broad generalizations?  K-W   Aug-02-05 01:15 PM   #87 
              - Numerous public utilities have been successfully government run  wuushew   Aug-02-05 05:58 PM   #139 
        - wow, what a thoughtful and reasoned response....  antfarm   Aug-02-05 12:25 PM   #62 
           - Last time I checked,  K-W   Aug-02-05 12:34 PM   #66 
        - A couple  idlisambar   Aug-02-05 12:38 PM   #68 
        - I would maintain that an increased competiveness in both  Walt Starr   Aug-02-05 01:06 PM   #81 
           - on what basis  idlisambar   Aug-02-05 01:27 PM   #90 
        - I'll quibble there  northzax   Aug-02-05 02:02 PM   #98 
        - Sorry but email delivery was accomplished by the federal govt with YOUR  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-02-05 05:33 PM   #137 
        - Sorry but email delivery was accomplished by the federal govt with YOUR  nothingshocksmeanymore   Aug-02-05 05:33 PM   #138 
  - I always thought extraction industries, and that includes oil, should  Cleita   Aug-02-05 11:22 AM   #28 
  - nationalize the housing stock and farms  Mr.Green93   Aug-02-05 11:25 AM   #30 
  - Yes, Including Airlines  cryingshame   Aug-02-05 11:26 AM   #32 
  - I think it's long past time.  redqueen   Aug-02-05 11:34 AM   #37 
  - look at the countries which have tried this  bigtree   Aug-02-05 11:35 AM   #38 
  - To speak of giving republicans heartburn...  tokenlib   Aug-02-05 11:40 AM   #43 
  - Middle ground.  iconoclastNYC   Aug-02-05 11:45 AM   #47 
  - Place industry under control of a corrupt government? How would that help?  rman   Aug-02-05 11:56 AM   #52 
  - Compared to corporations,  K-W   Aug-02-05 12:00 PM   #53 
     - You've got to be kidding.  rman   Aug-02-05 12:04 PM   #56 
        - Umm.  K-W   Aug-02-05 12:10 PM   #58 
           - You are right in principal; corporations are completely undemocratic  rman   Aug-02-05 12:48 PM   #71 
           - there are many corporations  northzax   Aug-02-05 02:14 PM   #101 
              - Wow.  K-W   Aug-02-05 02:34 PM   #109 
                 - so anyone who owns stock is a plutocrat?  northzax   Aug-02-05 02:44 PM   #112 
                    - I think you know full well who the plutocrats are.  K-W   Aug-02-05 02:47 PM   #113 
                       - of course not  northzax   Aug-02-05 02:58 PM   #116 
                          - So in your reality corporate america is controlled by workers?  K-W   Aug-02-05 03:01 PM   #117 
                             - no, it's controlled, for the most part  northzax   Aug-02-05 03:24 PM   #119 
                                - So you oppose democracy...  K-W   Aug-02-05 03:29 PM   #121 
                                   - no, I am arguing for representative democracy  northzax   Aug-02-05 03:40 PM   #126 
                                      - It looked to me like you were arguing for corporate control.  K-W   Aug-02-05 04:03 PM   #131 
  - Obviously. n/t  Zorra   Aug-02-05 12:00 PM   #54 
  - Yes  The Revolution   Aug-02-05 12:07 PM   #57 
  - It's past time to nationalize the defense industry  jmowreader   Aug-02-05 12:54 PM   #76 
  - Sure, let's let the government run everything!  Redstone   Aug-02-05 01:10 PM   #85 
  - How about us BE the Governement and the Governement BE us?  JanMichael   Aug-02-05 01:54 PM   #96 
  - what's your point?  idlisambar   Aug-02-05 03:25 PM   #120 
  - Energy should be nationalized nt  TWiley   Aug-02-05 02:28 PM   #108 
  - I'd agree with health insurance, medical care, and utilities.  livinginphotographs   Aug-02-05 02:40 PM   #111 
  - Road Construction  SlipperySlope   Aug-02-05 03:08 PM   #118 
  - Since roads are publicly funded  djohnson   Aug-02-05 03:33 PM   #123 
     - No - a lot of construction is done by private contractors.  SlipperySlope   Aug-02-05 03:38 PM   #125 
  - Healthcare definitely  djohnson   Aug-02-05 03:31 PM   #122 
  - Deregulation has been a big source of our problems  Lannes   Aug-02-05 03:36 PM   #124 
  - Capitalism and "free" markets are to economies  leftofthedial   Aug-02-05 05:31 PM   #136 
  - Nationalize????  whosinpower   Aug-02-05 06:08 PM   #140 
     - Just a note on your higher taxes  djohnson   Aug-03-05 09:10 AM   #144 

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