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housewolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jul-09-05 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Questions and thoughts ...
Which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Taken as a metaphor, extend that concept to the roles and interactions of a group and its leader(s).

I believe that what a group sees in its leader(s) is a reflection of aspects of the group itself that it, perhaps unconsciously, yearns to express.

But the question is, then, does a leader hold a vision that then ignites and inspires the passions and imagination of the group, or do the needs of the group call forth a leader to help them express those qualities?

Some say that a group gets the government/leadership it deserves. I see it a bit differently.

I agree with you that Democrats are not innocent is all of this. Much as we would like to see ourselves as victims of a powerful right that has grasped the reins of power unfairly, and as much as we decry the Iraq war and other injustices of our time, we are all a part of the consciousness of America being expressed right now and we all play a contributing role.

Today's leaders reflect that the pendulum has swung beyond the center-right, into the realm of the left's shadow. As such, it is a horribly painful time for the left. There is nothing as frightening as seeing one's shadow being acted out in front of you, in real life, and not knowing that it's your shadow. Unless and until one can recognnize and embrace the shadow, own it and transform it, the natural course is denial, rejection and faithlessness.

It is interesting that the right seeks to radically change course, while the left seeks to maintain the status quo. It is almost as though conservatism and liberalism have switched sides in this. It is confounding to me, having grown up through an era when the left were the radicals pushing for change (more liberty, freedoms, expanded rights of the individual) to see now that the right pushes for radical change in their desire to perform radical surgery on our society, cutting out what it doesn't like and reverting to a more authoritarian era.

It is as though the pendulum swung to the left, we reveled in our vision of expanded liberty through the 60's and 70's. The pendulum started swinging right again in the 80's, and now it's moved further right beyond the center-right. This is a cycle that has occurred throughout the history of America, a cycling of left to right then back to the left, and over again. It has a generational time-frame to it, each lasting 30 - 40 years. I don't know how much further the pendulum needs to swing right before it begins to swing back the other way.

I believe there are unconscious forces at work, beyond human consciousness or control, that are expressed during these eras. (What I am saying is that I don't believe the hippies were hippies by choice, but that there was a need within the human spirit for expression that came forward at that time). Perhaps this are astrological in nature, I know not. Perhaps they are other forces of the human unconscious, perhaps archetypal in nature. I don't know. I do know that as individuals, we can work our hearts out for what we think we want (i.e., political campaigns and leaders) but there are other forces involved that are bigger than we are.

It is interesting, what you say about the rw unconsciouly accepting the demise of the country. They have been quite vocal in decrying the outward cultural expressions of the leftward-swing of the pendulum, and they were as unhapppy with what was, for them, an expression of their shadow during our glory days while the pendulum was left of center, as we are now. They seek their ideal in authoritarianism, just as we seek it in individual freedom. In their righteousness, they yearn for the rapture and the apocolypse, seeking an eternity in servitude to their god.

But government as god has failed them, and will always fail them. Yet I am not convinced that they are, as yet, faithless to it. It seems to me they are still faithful to the view of government as a substitute god. They remain faithful to an idea of a past that never existed, and to a hope in its revival. When their faith is finally broken, and I believe it will be, the tipping point will have occurred.

I await a charasmatic leader, one who can communicate a vision of a positive future that inspires both/all sides and ignites the imaginations of a large majority of Americans to aa higher good.

But which comes first? The leader with the vision or the vision awakeing within the group that then calls forth the leader?

It is important to remain faithful to the process, but where are we in the process????

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  -ESSENTIALLY, AMERICANS HAVE LOST FAITH. leanin_green  Jul-09-05 03:26 PM   #0 
  - You make some good points...  Mythsaje   Jul-09-05 03:30 PM   #1 
  - We have accumulated tons of national Karma, both good and bad,  4MoronicYears   Jul-09-05 03:30 PM   #2 
  - Edgar was cool. Check out this site.  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 05:28 PM   #12 
  - Now here's an interesting bit of synchronicity.  Raksha   Jul-10-05 02:47 AM   #57 
     - What if we--the much-maligned "bleeding heart liberals" here at DU  4MoronicYears   Jul-10-05 03:01 PM   #87 
  - The Pessimism is well founded, peak oil is real  wuushew   Jul-09-05 03:33 PM   #3 
  - yea and what about the fucking polar bears all dieing out in 30 years  natrat   Jul-09-05 07:21 PM   #17 
  - There you go!  MadisonProgressive   Jul-09-05 08:33 PM   #19 
  - Natural process is fine but we are sentient creative beings  brindis_desala   Jul-09-05 03:40 PM   #4 
  - We should adapt these ideas to help keep our focus.  Democrats_win   Jul-09-05 03:58 PM   #7 
  - Sentient, yes. Creative, absolutely.  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 05:46 PM   #13 
  - thank you for these words  knowbody0   Jul-09-05 03:52 PM   #5 
  - It is going on all over the world....for many, many months now,  Gloria   Jul-09-05 03:57 PM   #6 
  - Yes, and further. . .  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 06:38 PM   #16 
  - I gave a short talk on Pluto in Sagittarius last night  SpiralHawk   Jul-09-05 04:11 PM   #8 
  - Interesting. I know nothing whatsoever about...  newswolf56   Jul-09-05 04:18 PM   #9 
  - So how long will this go on?  skooooo   Jul-09-05 04:19 PM   #10 
  - Well,  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 06:00 PM   #14 
  - I don't exactly have an answer for you..  housewolf   Jul-10-05 12:27 AM   #42 
     - Housewolf, you might like this site.  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 12:49 AM   #46 
  - "HAVE FAITH IN THE PROCESS. "  housewolf   Jul-09-05 04:54 PM   #11 
  - So, with your thoughts in mind. . .  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 06:17 PM   #15 
     - What about the day after?  Zorbuddha   Jul-09-05 08:27 PM   #18 
     - Questions and thoughts ...  housewolf   Jul-09-05 10:19 PM   #27 
        - Well said, and I would add this.  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 11:14 PM   #28 
           - I love this conversation!  housewolf   Jul-10-05 12:01 AM   #36 
              - My calling?  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 12:05 AM   #38 
                 - worthy goal  marions ghost   Jul-10-05 09:05 AM   #60 
  - Why Would Planets And Stars Care The Lifeforms On This Planet?  arwalden   Jul-09-05 08:44 PM   #20 
  - no doubt- this planet is an overloaded freight train out of control  natrat   Jul-09-05 09:14 PM   #22 
  - Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by  Wonk   Jul-09-05 09:57 PM   #26 
  - Another Special Group: "Astrology, Spirituality & Alternative Healing"  arwalden   Jul-10-05 05:57 AM   #58 
  - Keep reading further.  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 12:07 AM   #39 
  - Why? What Will I Find? Why Not Just Respond Directly...  arwalden   Jul-10-05 06:00 AM   #59 
  - Allen, Go Read Some Jung On The Collective Unconscious.  cryingshame   Jul-10-05 09:23 AM   #62 
  - You Beg Me? Oh Brother!  arwalden   Jul-10-05 11:52 AM   #67 
     - And yet you persist here, why?  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 02:05 PM   #75 
        - Well, Leanin_Green...  arwalden   Jul-10-05 02:24 PM   #78 
           - Alright arwalden, I respect that.  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 02:34 PM   #82 
  - They don't....  sendero   Jul-10-05 10:09 AM   #64 
     - If This Were True Then It Could Be Demonstrated...  arwalden   Jul-10-05 11:53 AM   #68 
        - It's hard to call anything..  sendero   Jul-10-05 12:01 PM   #69 
           - Either It's Real Or It's Not.  arwalden   Jul-10-05 12:14 PM   #70 
              - Oh thanks for that..  sendero   Jul-10-05 12:16 PM   #71 
                 - You're Welcome.  arwalden   Jul-10-05 12:23 PM   #72 
                    - Especially...  sendero   Jul-10-05 12:26 PM   #73 
                       - Sendero... You Cut Me To The Quick! I Understand It Perfectly.  arwalden   Jul-10-05 12:34 PM   #74 
  - thank you for your post...  bridgit   Jul-09-05 09:07 PM   #21 
  - Thank you bridgit  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 12:55 AM   #50 
  - What happened the last time Pluto was in Sagittarius?  Bill McBlueState   Jul-09-05 09:16 PM   #23 
  - Does that which has yet to be discovered cease to exist?  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 11:37 PM   #30 
  - Sadly, the perfect mathematical principles don't appear to govern  Heaven and Earth   Jul-09-05 11:51 PM   #34 
     - Well, there is Caos Therory!  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 12:01 AM   #37 
  - A quick Google says Pluto was discovered in 1930.  gulliver   Jul-10-05 12:49 AM   #47 
     - I Guess That Means That All Astrological Charts Prior To 1930 Were WRONG!  arwalden   Jul-10-05 02:32 PM   #81 
        - Actually, it's much older than that.  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 02:39 PM   #84 
           - A Trivial And Inconsequential Point...  arwalden   Jul-10-05 02:59 PM   #85 
  - In what other periods of history was...  newswolf56   Jul-09-05 09:28 PM   #24 
  - Very nice! Read post #30 to answer historical periods.  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 11:41 PM   #31 
  - Very nice! Read post #30 to answer historical periods.  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 11:42 PM   #32 
     - Sorry I never heard of Jeffrey Wolf Green; am merely...  newswolf56   Jul-10-05 12:40 AM   #44 
        - Ah yes, the Druid.  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 12:45 AM   #45 
           - I think the Muse speaks in a singular voice...  newswolf56   Jul-10-05 12:58 AM   #51 
           - The name Stringfellow is, as you say, English  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-10-05 07:41 PM   #91 
              - And where did the English originate?  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 09:50 PM   #93 
              - 'English' comes from 'Angle', who came over with the Saxons  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-11-05 05:48 AM   #97 
                 - My ancestry traces back to Cornwall  leanin_green   Jul-11-05 01:08 PM   #101 
                    - Nevertheless, a claim that 'Stringfellow' links you with the Druids  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-11-05 03:32 PM   #102 
                       - I can accept your critique.  leanin_green   Jul-11-05 07:25 PM   #106 
              - Try again.  okasha   Jul-10-05 10:05 PM   #94 
                 - But saying the name "Stringfellow" proves it is incorrect  muriel_volestrangler   Jul-11-05 05:56 AM   #98 
  - After every high, there's a low...  IMModerate   Jul-09-05 09:48 PM   #25 
  - Let's not get too hung-up on the Pluto stuff, okay?  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 11:50 PM   #33 
     - Yes and no.  IMModerate   Jul-10-05 09:14 AM   #61 
  - Tell me more about this process  Heaven and Earth   Jul-09-05 11:28 PM   #29 
  - It is the Ultimate Good I speak of.  leanin_green   Jul-09-05 11:59 PM   #35 
     - If we were merely a part of this process  Heaven and Earth   Jul-10-05 12:09 AM   #41 
        - Goodness and badness of it?  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 12:40 AM   #43 
           - Would someone running on instinct be able to say the things you do?  Heaven and Earth   Jul-10-05 12:51 AM   #49 
              - You are trying too hard.  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 01:09 AM   #52 
                 - I do applaud you for putting your beliefs out there  Heaven and Earth   Jul-10-05 01:45 AM   #56 
                 - I'm not trying to convince anybody. And BTW  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 03:00 PM   #86 
                 - yes  marions ghost   Jul-10-05 10:41 AM   #65 
  - I agree that we are experiencing a widespread crisis of faith--  marions ghost   Jul-10-05 12:09 AM   #40 
  - I never had any faith.  BiggJawn   Jul-10-05 12:50 AM   #48 
  - And so, you have your reward.  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 01:12 AM   #53 
     - My "Reward"?  BiggJawn   Jul-10-05 01:19 AM   #54 
  - Americans are more faithful than they've ever been in my lifetime.  BurtWorm   Jul-10-05 01:31 AM   #55 
  - this "faith" is shallow...  marions ghost   Jul-10-05 09:47 AM   #63 
  - Hurricanes --  IMModerate   Jul-10-05 11:36 AM   #66 
     - Actually. . .  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 02:25 PM   #79 
        - Well nothing is above humor.  IMModerate   Jul-10-05 03:08 PM   #89 
           - Skepticism is essential  marions ghost   Jul-11-05 08:13 AM   #99 
  - Why do the righteous suffer and the wicked prosper?  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 02:20 PM   #77 
     - Because I WOULDN'T be living well. I'd be miserable.  Raksha   Jul-10-05 02:26 PM   #80 
     - By what set of values do you make such a conclusion?  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 02:38 PM   #83 
        - Obviously, I am NOT using the current materialistic values  Raksha   Jul-11-05 03:32 AM   #96 
     - No I don't think they're suffering for their immorality.  BurtWorm   Jul-11-05 10:02 AM   #100 
  - Lost faith?  DaddyBear1   Jul-10-05 02:07 PM   #76 
  - Faith in the system is one thing. A system hijacked and warped is anther.  HypnoToad   Jul-10-05 03:02 PM   #88 
  - I am late to the show....  Desertrose   Jul-10-05 07:13 PM   #90 
  - Thanks desertrose  leanin_green   Jul-10-05 09:44 PM   #92 
     - yuppers...quite the thread leanin_green  Desertrose   Jul-11-05 02:31 AM   #95 
  - You had me until you mentioned astrology  Taverner   Jul-11-05 03:34 PM   #103 
  - That's cool, everyone has a way.  leanin_green   Jul-11-05 08:00 PM   #108 
  - Look to me like Americans have lost doubt.  Lilith Velkor   Jul-11-05 04:02 PM   #104 
  - so question?  MsTryska   Jul-11-05 04:04 PM   #105 
     - At the beginning. . .  leanin_green   Jul-11-05 07:49 PM   #107 
        - so you're saying  MsTryska   Jul-12-05 08:48 AM   #109 
           - Yes, and conservative.  leanin_green   Jul-12-05 05:41 PM   #110 

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