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Reply #85: I don't mind the lovefest [View All]

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noamnety Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-05 09:47 AM
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85. I don't mind the lovefest
Because I learned about him while reading those threads, and that's always a good thing. Also, I don't mind the criticism, because I learned a lot while reading that as well. That's what this site is supposed to be about - expanding our knowledge. So hearing from both sides is a good thing.

I am on the side that says the internet is not a funeral home, nor is it a wake. But I wouldn't go into a specific love-fest thread and start pope-bashing, that's just wrong. I know people are grieving in those threads, and I do respect that. But they can't stake a claim over the entire internet, or even the entire DU site as their private turf for mourning.

It's not so different from the Kerry bashing, in that way. As someone who supported him whole-heartedly, I found the bashing to be infuriating, but what made it worse was that you can't mention his name in a thread without it being derailed by a half dozen off-topic posts reminding you that they would never vote for him again. That's just rude for the sake of being rude. Specific threads for criticizing Kerry were one thing, crapping all over every conversation about him was another.

So in the lovefest threads, I hold my tongue, and maybe learn a bit of history and have some compassion for fellow DUers. And in the threads that criticize him, I wouldn't go out of my way to call him names, but I'm not going to sugarcoat his role in bringing Bush and Falwell to power, or overlook the fact that despite his giving lipservice to the antiwar movement, he quietly allowed the Catholic Church to form the Christian Coalition, which in turn brought about the war he claimed he opposed. All the lip service in the world doesn't change the fact that they had a specific plan to take over the house, senate, presidency, and judicial system in the US, and now they've done it - it's no use claiming moral high ground when they themselves created the situation. Nor will I overlook the fact that he traded your or my freedom of choice (whether it be reproductive rights or choice of who to marry) in return for more power for the church.

After doing a lot of reading these last few days, I don't believe he was actually homophobic or opposed to birth control or abortion; I believe he espoused those views because to do otherwise undermined the church's credibility and thus the church's power. Unfortunately, I also believe that being homophobic is hateful and ignorant, but pretending to be because of your thirst for power is even worse - that's not ignornace, it's moral failing.
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  -So I'm an "issue"? jdj  Apr-02-05 10:19 PM   #0 
  - Don't guess I understand what you're taking umbrage at.  Career Prole   Apr-02-05 10:23 PM   #1 
  - if it's not obvious, then don't waste your time.  jdj   Apr-02-05 10:29 PM   #3 
  - Okay. n/t  Career Prole   Apr-03-05 12:38 AM   #67 
  - That was easy...  Tom Yossarian Joad   Apr-03-05 03:08 AM   #75 
  - "If you don't know, I'm certainly not going to tell you"  LittleClarkie   Apr-03-05 01:02 PM   #104 
  - I'll take a stab  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 10:32 PM   #6 
  - I'm scared.  jdj   Apr-02-05 10:36 PM   #7 
     - I don't know...  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 10:44 PM   #10 
     - you mean I'm not alone?  jdj   Apr-02-05 10:46 PM   #11 
     - No, you're not  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 10:51 PM   #14 
     - Funny how you read your own post...  incapsulated   Apr-03-05 01:47 AM   #70 
     - if you dont post it, could you PM it to me  RPM   Apr-03-05 01:01 PM   #103 
     - You're definitely not alone  Tansy_Gold   Apr-02-05 11:29 PM   #37 
     - LOL, I heard the end of communism garbage too.  jdj   Apr-02-05 11:51 PM   #56 
     - Not to mention that he oversaw a Church so riddled with  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 12:31 AM   #65 
        - this is what Sinead O'Connor was protesting.  jdj   Apr-03-05 12:34 AM   #66 
     - I was glad to hear so many give some credit to the Pope rather than  rodeodance   Apr-03-05 03:08 AM   #76 
     - You're not alone  Kipepeo   Apr-03-05 03:32 AM   #80 
     - You're not alone  Nobody   Apr-03-05 09:55 AM   #86 
     - You're DEFINITELY not alone  grace0418   Apr-03-05 11:12 AM   #95 
     - You're not alone. n/t  Blue State Native   Apr-03-05 11:15 AM   #96 
     - the question is whether Falwell  hfojvt   Apr-02-05 10:52 PM   #16 
     - No, not to me...  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 11:04 PM   #21 
        - Well said, and in addition  Eloriel   Apr-02-05 11:15 PM   #27 
        - that's it.  jdj   Apr-02-05 11:16 PM   #29 
        - But...  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 11:19 PM   #31 
        - One wonders what might have happened if JP2 had slapped  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 04:28 PM   #111 
        - degrees do not matter?  hfojvt   Apr-02-05 11:23 PM   #34 
        - Incapsulated: You've made some great posts on this subject  onager   Apr-02-05 11:15 PM   #28 
        - I toast anyone who quotes Grant  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 11:21 PM   #33 
           - hey, he's my famous cousin  hfojvt   Apr-02-05 11:27 PM   #36 
              - Get outta here...  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 11:31 PM   #40 
        - fundies, along with their social conservatism  hfojvt   Apr-02-05 11:17 PM   #30 
        - The question is...  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 11:30 PM   #38 
        - Exactly.  not systems   Apr-03-05 01:55 AM   #72 
     - Just out of curiousity  merh   Apr-02-05 11:42 PM   #49 
     - I guess bringing them up...  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 11:59 PM   #59 
        - His fight for freedom for the people in communist blocked nations  merh   Apr-03-05 12:20 AM   #63 
        - Ok...  incapsulated   Apr-03-05 03:37 AM   #81 
           - Now who is being disingenuous?  merh   Apr-03-05 10:57 AM   #91 
              - Way to distort what I have said  incapsulated   Apr-03-05 09:32 PM   #139 
        - plus with these two leaders their religion was incidental  jdj   Apr-03-05 12:24 AM   #64 
           - Go back and study both men.  merh   Apr-03-05 02:09 PM   #107 
              - The man who brought MLK and Gandhi together  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 04:46 PM   #114 
              - Thank you for the links. I will go read them.  merh   Apr-03-05 04:58 PM   #117 
                 - You can find more doing a google search  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 05:40 PM   #123 
                    - Thank you.  merh   Apr-03-05 05:53 PM   #124 
                       - Taylor Branch's biography of Dr. King includes  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 06:32 PM   #130 
                          - Until he distanced himself from him.  merh   Apr-03-05 06:39 PM   #133 
              - I'll trust King's wife to know his opinion  uhhuh   Apr-03-05 07:07 PM   #136 
                 - Well, it would appear that actions speak louder than words.  merh   Apr-03-05 09:04 PM   #138 
                    - Dr. King was under enormous political pressure to sever his  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 09:44 PM   #142 
                       - But he did eventually "distance" himself from his trusted friend  merh   Apr-03-05 09:55 PM   #143 
     - Thank you  liberal43110   Apr-02-05 11:49 PM   #54 
     - Thanks from me, too. I have taken a break from the lovefest as  Nay   Apr-03-05 09:00 AM   #82 
     - What was MLK's and Ghandhi's position on the gay/lesbian issue?  rodeodance   Apr-03-05 03:04 AM   #73 
        - Please see my post #114 above  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 04:48 PM   #115 
     - Respect to grieving members  SheWhoMustBeObeyed   Apr-02-05 10:58 PM   #19 
     - this isn't a wake, it's an internet website.  jdj   Apr-02-05 11:02 PM   #20 
        - My point  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 11:08 PM   #23 
        - Perhaps some of us  hfojvt   Apr-02-05 11:32 PM   #42 
           - I think...  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 11:40 PM   #47 
              - I do have some friends who are Bush fans  hfojvt   Apr-03-05 12:18 AM   #62 
        - It's a community.  SheWhoMustBeObeyed   Apr-02-05 11:31 PM   #39 
           - LOL  jdj   Apr-02-05 11:42 PM   #48 
     - I am with you 100%  Eloriel   Apr-02-05 11:07 PM   #22 
     - thanks Eloriel.  jdj   Apr-02-05 11:13 PM   #25 
     - Respect for people of faith  magnussun   Apr-02-05 11:43 PM   # 
        - people "of faith" have never respected me.  jdj   Apr-02-05 11:46 PM   #53 
        - Well, I'm a person of faith...  JohnnyCougar   Apr-03-05 12:56 PM   #102 
        - Christian DUers DO deserve respect  magnussun   Apr-03-05 04:29 PM   #112 
        - Are democrats really the amoral atheist party as republicans claim?  liberal43110   Apr-03-05 12:00 AM   #60 
        - There is a separation of church and state  magnussun   Apr-03-05 04:33 PM   #113 
        - No, Christians DO NOT have a right to inflict their opinion on  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 04:55 PM   #116 
     - Bisexual, sexual assault survivor, female--with a slightly different view  animuscitizen   Apr-03-05 10:44 AM   #87 
     - excellent definition!  ultraist   Apr-03-05 05:54 PM   #125 
     - "I feel censored."  ithinkmyliverhurts   Apr-03-05 07:23 PM   #137 
  - I don't understand the post, either. I feel like at the end it should  TexasSissy   Apr-03-05 09:40 PM   #140 
  - "women in the priesthood" is an issue  orangepeel68   Apr-02-05 10:28 PM   #2 
  - okay, I got it.  jdj   Apr-02-05 10:30 PM   #5 
     - glad to help  orangepeel68   Apr-02-05 10:42 PM   #8 
     - yeah, but now I'm pissed about the gay rights part.  jdj   Apr-02-05 10:43 PM   #9 
        - IMHO, you have every right to be pissed about the Pope's lack of support  orangepeel68   Apr-02-05 10:55 PM   #17 
           - "lack of support" is a vast understatement, don't you think?  tedzbear   Apr-02-05 11:38 PM   #45 
     - I read it that he was conservative on most women's issues  hfojvt   Apr-02-05 10:48 PM   #12 
        - No,  jdj   Apr-02-05 10:50 PM   #13 
        - mine too, but I believe in respecting mortality  hfojvt   Apr-02-05 11:10 PM   #24 
           - I'm not sure about that.  jdj   Apr-02-05 11:14 PM   #26 
           - Kerry is male too, and Catholic  hfojvt   Apr-02-05 11:20 PM   #32 
           - Your delicate sensibilities are misplaced, IMO  Eloriel   Apr-02-05 11:39 PM   #46 
              - Well said!  ultraist   Apr-03-05 12:41 AM   #68 
              - Well said again Eloriel!  hue   Apr-03-05 10:47 AM   #88 
              - Thank you, Eloriel  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 05:01 PM   #118 
        - I had NO idea!  Behind the Aegis   Apr-02-05 10:57 PM   #18 
        - Me neither  alarimer   Apr-02-05 11:50 PM   #55 
        - support for gays and blacks is paying off  yurbud   Apr-03-05 01:17 PM   #105 
  - My mother's life is also an issue...  Solon   Apr-02-05 10:29 PM   #4 
  - Some good friends of my parents  bloom   Apr-03-05 05:07 PM   #121 
  - An "issue" to an archaic patriarchal pseudo-theocracy, yes.  porphyrian   Apr-02-05 10:51 PM   #15 
  - thanks, jdj  Dookus   Apr-02-05 11:23 PM   #35 
  - Yeah, well...  incapsulated   Apr-02-05 11:33 PM   #43 
  - geez is that it?  jdj   Apr-02-05 11:43 PM   #50 
     - Yes, I'm afraid that's it  Dookus   Apr-02-05 11:45 PM   #51 
        - every death is sad. but i don't think it's an excuse to rewrite history  bettyellen   Apr-03-05 01:44 AM   #69 
           - You'd think...  Dookus   Apr-03-05 01:52 AM   #71 
  - The Pope was a gay basher and I will not excuse him.  tedzbear   Apr-02-05 11:32 PM   #41 
  - Gay basher?  magnussun   Apr-02-05 11:46 PM   #52 
  - I think those papal decrees about gay marriage being an "abomination"  jdj   Apr-02-05 11:54 PM   #57 
  - There also  mmonk   Apr-03-05 09:10 AM   #83 
  - That's what the bible says  magnussun   Apr-03-05 04:06 PM   #108 
     - Really?  Dookus   Apr-03-05 06:34 PM   #131 
     - Well, the "bible" says slavery is fine and so is animal  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 06:43 PM   #134 
  - He refered to people like me as the "culture of death" for starters...  tedzbear   Apr-02-05 11:59 PM   #58 
  - Ringleader?  magnussun   Apr-03-05 04:11 PM   #109 
  - That is too funny...NEVER bashed gays...  not systems   Apr-03-05 03:07 AM   #74 
  - "The ideology of evil"  incapsulated   Apr-03-05 03:11 AM   #77 
  - Gays and abortion  magnussun   Apr-03-05 04:16 PM   #110 
     - I never said any such thing  incapsulated   Apr-03-05 09:42 PM   #141 
  - "NEVER bashed gays" - wrong wrong WRONG!  Swamp Rat   Apr-03-05 03:13 AM   #78 
  - I do not excuse the pope either  liberal43110   Apr-03-05 12:07 AM   #61 
     - Don't let hatred eat you alive.  mmonk   Apr-03-05 03:17 AM   #79 
        - Many of these people were raised to hate Catholics....  Bridget Burke   Apr-03-05 09:17 AM   #84 
           - "Many of these people were raised" to idolize Catholicism  ultraist   Apr-03-05 06:28 PM   #129 
  - You jerk your left knee in, you jerk your left knee out...  LoZoccolo   Apr-02-05 11:34 PM   #44 
  - I don't mind the lovefest  lwfern   Apr-03-05 09:47 AM   #85 
  - all pope all the time, this morning like msm  seabeyond   Apr-03-05 10:49 AM   #89 
  - Yes, you are an "issue" and your rights are " special rights"  Solly Mack   Apr-03-05 10:53 AM   #90 
  - my 9 year old is on your side  seabeyond   Apr-03-05 11:05 AM   #93 
     - I'm an issue  Solly Mack   Apr-03-05 11:21 AM   #97 
        - Very insightful and honest remarks!  ultraist   Apr-03-05 06:22 PM   #128 
  - You are not an "issue" to me--the Catholic church is  hue   Apr-03-05 11:03 AM   #92 
  - after more than 24 hours of this, what i see now  seabeyond   Apr-03-05 11:12 AM   #94 
  - I was raised catholic and loved my church  Geek_Girl   Apr-03-05 11:23 AM   #98 
  - yes it was  seabeyond   Apr-03-05 11:39 AM   #100 
  - I understand being hurt and offended by an entity/group judging you.  demgurl   Apr-03-05 11:38 AM   #99 
  - but they are creating law that is abusive to people  seabeyond   Apr-03-05 11:42 AM   #101 
     - I understand the law hurts people.....  demgurl   Apr-03-05 02:01 PM   #106 
        - My thoughts exactly  48pan   Apr-03-05 05:06 PM   #119 
           - i am not fighting the pope, and i am not letting it go  seabeyond   Apr-03-05 06:12 PM   #126 
              - Did I miss something?  48pan   Apr-03-05 06:15 PM   #127 
                 - Catholic hospitals routinely refuse, on the grounds of religious  Tansy_Gold   Apr-03-05 06:54 PM   #135 
  - We are all "issues" in the eyes of somebody.  MrsGrumpy   Apr-03-05 05:07 PM   #120 
  - I'm trying to stay away from any coment about the Pope  cally   Apr-03-05 05:13 PM   #122 
  - I am not an "issue", hell i don't even have a label, but this pope ...  bin.dare   Apr-03-05 06:34 PM   #132 

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