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amazona Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-04-05 04:14 PM
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59. fortunately this never arises since...
...the older I get the more aware I am that we never "know anything for a fact."

It is easy to delude ourselves that such-and-such must be able to know something or do something to make a difference. It is easy to speculate that this person might be a terrorist who might know something that could help.

But until the person has had a fair trial in front of a jury of his peers, you don't KNOW anything -- and, considering some of the trials I've witnessed, you still don't KNOW.

"If I had a terrorist in custody and he knew about an atrocity about to be committed I wonder if a gun muzzle to the head is so unjustifiable"

Think about the logic of this for a moment. If you KNOW he knows, then YOU also know, and you don't need to torture him, you need to get busy dealing with the problem. If you are just SPECULATING that he might be a terrorist who might know are just as likely to get bogus information as not. Maybe more likely.

How many times have LEOs right here in the U.S. felt they were justified to use torture to get a criminal (often black) to admit to a crime in order to preserve public safety. The cops KNEW the criminal was guilty. We all KNEW the Central Park "wilding boys" were guilty. They had to be jailed to preserve the joggers of New York. Yet they were innocent. And DNA evidence has proved it.

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  -Comments on Torture - Please do not Ban Me Wisc Badger  Jan-04-05 02:34 PM   #0 
  - The first question is:  trotsky   Jan-04-05 02:35 PM   #1 
  - The second question is don't you know that they will tell you anything to  Vincardog   Jan-04-05 02:38 PM   # 
  - Depends on the torture and what you already know.  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 03:14 PM   #46 
  - Yes, but most terrorists also know that there are other numerous  ElectroPrincess   Jan-04-05 06:21 PM   #83 
  - Here's a list of questions.  firebee   Jan-05-05 12:33 AM   #98 
  - And the second is....  ChairOne   Jan-04-05 02:40 PM   #11 
  - and how do you know they have information?  AllegroRondo   Jan-04-05 02:45 PM   #17 
  - Exactly.  trotsky   Jan-04-05 02:50 PM   #21 
  - Think of all the women who "confessed" to being witches  lawladyprof   Jan-05-05 08:59 AM   #106 
  - And if the information proves to be false...  HypnoToad   Jan-04-05 06:04 PM   #78 
  - exactly  sui generis   Jan-04-05 02:50 PM   #20 
  - This reminds me of 24...  tasteblind   Jan-04-05 02:37 PM   #2 
  - I love that show.  slutticus   Jan-04-05 04:54 PM   #73 
  - the 'ticking time bomb' scenario  GAspnes   Jan-04-05 02:38 PM   #3 
  - Okay, let's reverse the roles . . . you're a US soldier who's been  ET Awful   Jan-04-05 02:38 PM   #4 
  - Exactly and the reason for the prohibition in the first place  nothingshocksmeanymore   Jan-04-05 02:39 PM   #9 
  - Good Point. - Guess that is the answer I was looking for  Wisc Badger   Jan-04-05 02:45 PM   #19 
  - Wisc Badger - you say  peacebird   Jan-04-05 03:11 PM   #44 
     - Jesus said "Evil will not cast out evil" Torture may seem like the right  hollowdweller   Jan-04-05 07:23 PM   #91 
  - I think this is the best response so far....  mike_c   Jan-04-05 02:54 PM   #27 
  - Entitled to? Entitlement doesn't matter as they will anyway.  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 03:19 PM   #47 
     - Really?  ET Awful   Jan-04-05 03:25 PM   #49 
        - I have never supported the invasion of Iraq. That is a lie.  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 03:34 PM   #51 
  - is there a difference between a beating and torture?  kick-ass-bob   Jan-04-05 02:38 PM   #5 
  - and what about sodium pentathol derivatives?  sui generis   Jan-04-05 02:54 PM   #25 
  - Beating is torture.  Taxloss   Jan-04-05 03:05 PM   #37 
  - Try some more recovery  RetroLounge   Jan-04-05 02:38 PM   #6 
  - While I believe that that's true,  liberalhistorian   Jan-04-05 02:52 PM   #23 
     - Okay, yes, I agree with you.  RetroLounge   Jan-04-05 02:58 PM   #33 
     - Your post is self-contradicting.  K-W   Jan-04-05 03:06 PM   #40 
        - "In the heat of battle" isn't quite the same  Tansy_Gold   Jan-04-05 03:45 PM   #55 
  - Torture does not produce good information  KurtNYC   Jan-04-05 02:39 PM   #7 
  - I know that if I were  liberalhistorian   Jan-04-05 03:05 PM   #38 
  - No it isnt justifiable, and it DOESNT EVEN WORK.  K-W   Jan-04-05 02:39 PM   #8 
  - The problem is that you've started down an extremely slippery slope  Sandpiper   Jan-04-05 02:39 PM   #10 
  - But that's not what is going on  democracyindanger   Jan-04-05 02:40 PM   #12 
  - In Afghanistan, we got better information with...  Cuban_Liberal   Jan-04-05 02:43 PM   #13 
  - Exactly! I rest my case ... see post #83  ElectroPrincess   Jan-04-05 06:32 PM   #86 
  - Well friend, it has been shown time and again that torture  MadHound   Jan-04-05 02:43 PM   #14 
  - I served 4 years in the USMC, if you act like a barbarian  dand   Jan-04-05 02:44 PM   #15 
  - There are several reasons.  Taxloss   Jan-04-05 02:44 PM   #16 
  - Ninthly  Tansy_Gold   Jan-04-05 02:58 PM   #31 
  - Tenthly  Taxloss   Jan-04-05 03:04 PM   #36 
  - Eleventhly. . . . .  Tansy_Gold   Jan-04-05 03:39 PM   #53 
  - Eleventhly  bunkerbuster1   Jan-04-05 03:42 PM   #54 
     - 12thly  Astarho   Jan-04-05 04:46 PM   #69 
  - " And who would want to become a torturer?"  mcscajun   Jan-04-05 06:28 PM   #84 
     - ". . . and that's a horror show."  Tansy_Gold   Jan-04-05 08:54 PM   #93 
  - Agree on all points except the first.  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 03:38 PM   #52 
     - Not if the questioner doesn't believe the truth.  Taxloss   Jan-04-05 03:56 PM   #56 
     - That depends on how good the intelligence is in the first place.  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 04:23 PM   #61 
        - Intelligence is never that good. If it was, why torture?  Taxloss   Jan-04-05 04:32 PM   #62 
           - Thanks. I appreciate that. That other guy is accusing me  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 04:36 PM   #67 
              - Well, my position is absolute, certainly, but it's not smug.  Taxloss   Jan-04-05 05:11 PM   #74 
                 - Yes, and it shows that you have given it thought.  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 06:06 PM   #79 
                    - Thank you very much.  Taxloss   Jan-04-05 06:13 PM   #81 
     - so if you already know the answer...  bpilgrim   Jan-04-05 04:33 PM   #64 
        - First, I hope I would have the moral strength NOT to torture.  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 06:11 PM   #80 
           - so, to fill in the blanks?  bpilgrim   Jan-04-05 10:46 PM   #96 
              - I have NOT said it is morally right.  Silverhair   Jan-05-05 06:33 AM   #101 
                 - no, YOU are the one stuck on ONLY the immoral aspect of TORTURE  bpilgrim   Jan-05-05 11:13 AM   #112 
  - And if  utahgirl   Jan-04-05 02:45 PM   #18 
  - Good point, Utah Girl  Lena   Jan-04-05 07:05 PM   #88 
  - Thank you for setting me straight on this one.  Wisc Badger   Jan-04-05 02:52 PM   #22 
  - You are very cool, Wisc Badger.  trotsky   Jan-04-05 02:53 PM   #24 
  - Welcome to DU.  Cuban_Liberal   Jan-04-05 02:54 PM   #26 
  - I'm ex-military as well Badger, so I know where you're coming from  ET Awful   Jan-04-05 02:56 PM   #30 
  - I forgot my manners! :-)  Vektor   Jan-04-05 02:58 PM   #32 
  - Thanks for asking!  Taxloss   Jan-04-05 04:50 PM   #72 
  - Congrats on your recovering status....  Vektor   Jan-04-05 02:55 PM   #28 
  - It's not justifiable.  Nadienne   Jan-04-05 02:56 PM   #29 
  - The know nothings  oneold1-4u   Jan-04-05 03:00 PM   #34 
  - No torture for me, thank you very much  yinkaafrica   Jan-04-05 03:03 PM   #35 
  - And, worst of all, what if it works?  gratuitous   Jan-04-05 03:06 PM   #39 
  - You might feel such guilt over being alive, but...  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 04:32 PM   #63 
     - Oh no, I'm well aware  gratuitous   Jan-04-05 04:48 PM   #71 
        - You are indeed correct.  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 05:59 PM   #77 
  - if it actually worked, it would be more viable, but it doesn't  KenCarson   Jan-04-05 03:07 PM   #41 
  - The problem with that defense is  youngred   Jan-04-05 03:09 PM   #42 
  - Try this empathetic test...  dave123williams   Jan-04-05 03:10 PM   #43 
  - Never as a gov't policy.  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 03:11 PM   #45 
  - Do it only if you agree that the same should be done to you  Lorien   Jan-04-05 03:24 PM   #48 
  - If you have the time, the most reliable way of getting info is the  Silverhair   Jan-04-05 03:31 PM   #50 
  - This line of reasoning is nothing more than the "ends  Cleita   Jan-04-05 03:59 PM   #57 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-04-05 04:03 PM   #58 
  - fortunately this never arises since...  amazona   Jan-04-05 04:14 PM   #59 
  - It is morally repugnant to use torture.  Tierra_y_Libertad   Jan-04-05 04:14 PM   #60 
  - How would you know that he had that information?  Darranar   Jan-04-05 04:34 PM   #65 
  - If it's okay to use it on them, it's okay for them to use it on our  blondeatlast   Jan-04-05 04:34 PM   #66 
  - It's not whether you yourself would do, but "Does the law condone it?"  LanternWaste   Jan-04-05 04:42 PM   #68 
  - Correcting an error of a poster.  Disturbed   Jan-04-05 05:22 PM   #75 
  - well, consider John McCain's  stanwyck   Jan-04-05 04:46 PM   #70 
  - My question is: If your goal is to extract valuable and reliable  Be Brave   Jan-04-05 05:24 PM   #76 
  - What if you're a service member serving in an enemy country?  Canuckistanian   Jan-04-05 06:14 PM   #82 
  - I have a proposal for the mods..  sendero   Jan-04-05 06:31 PM   #85 
  - LOL!  Lena   Jan-04-05 07:08 PM   #89 
  - would torture work on you? also, if you think its ok for the USs prisoners  KG   Jan-04-05 06:36 PM   #87 
  - what if you had one prisoner  Uzybone   Jan-04-05 07:15 PM   #90 
  - Torture  kcjim   Jan-04-05 07:28 PM   #92 
  - in reality, I think torture is often used for revenge rather than for info  bobbieinok   Jan-04-05 09:18 PM   #94 
  - also, apparently many of those using torture in Nazi Germany, etc, were  bobbieinok   Jan-04-05 09:19 PM   #95 
  - I would support "coercion" if it wasn't for the slippery slope aspect  WillieWoohah   Jan-04-05 11:40 PM   #97 
  - The torturer comes home to YOUR neighborhood....  Porcupine   Jan-05-05 12:55 AM   #99 
  - Civilization is actually a very fragile thing  Old Mouse   Jan-05-05 01:17 AM   #100 
  - These are exactly the kind of rationales advocated by torture  KlatooBNikto   Jan-05-05 06:41 AM   #102 
  - Hmm yeah that will work.  Democracy Died 2004   Jan-05-05 07:40 AM   #103 
  - This is the standard rationalization. No sale.  Lydia Leftcoast   Jan-05-05 08:11 AM   #104 
  - The 'grunts' dont know anything about the people they are torturing.  TryingToWarnYou   Jan-05-05 08:20 AM   #105 
  - I was watching a "The Shield" episode on DVD  sherilocks   Jan-05-05 09:13 AM   #107 
  - Anytime we deviate even the  Democracy Died 2004   Jan-05-05 09:40 AM   #108 
  - War is different.  txaslftist   Jan-05-05 09:43 AM   #109 
  - The reason that is indefensible is because  Taxloss   Jan-05-05 09:49 AM   #110 
  - In response to all  sherilocks   Jan-05-05 10:40 AM   #111 
     - it's easy to root for one side of the story  rman   Jan-05-05 11:38 AM   #113 
  - to coin a pop-culture reference  fryguy   Jan-05-05 02:33 PM   #114 

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