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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #30
114. A man changes from 1992 to 2003
After studying the man for a while, and putting things in context, I can see why he voted for certain things at certain times, not because he was playing politics but because it's what he believed at the time.

His military voting changed somewhere around 1997 or so. After studying terrorism and its mechanisms he realized that although the Cold War was over, a new war was being waged. He could see after dealing with BCCI and the Iran/Contra affair, how organized modern terrorist groups were getting. And so he started voting for a military buildup.

I believe he voted in 92 while still looking through his Vietnam, anti-war goggles. And both he and Cheney (the lying sack) voted against the same military programs in the interest of cutting back on government spending (a Dem who's more fiscally conservative than our current Repub prez. What a weird state of affairs).

And dagnabit, he voted for the authority to go to war, believing misguidedly that the President would do all the things he said he would beforehand: use war as a last resort, forming a proper coalition and going in force to get the job done quickly. His speech right after the vote makes it clear that he believed the President would do these things and that he hadn't just voted for automatic war. I think that terrorism was an issue Kerry cared about deeply, considering he'd been making speeches on the Senate floor about it since 97, and indeed just before 9/11 in May. While Bush and Co. were all hot for Missle Defense, Kerry's eyes were on the real threat.

I think Kerry was hoping against hope that the President would do what he had promised and not create the biggest fubar in history. When Bush went to war, Kerry in the speech he gave in the Senate sounds like he's till hoping that Bush wasn't bullshitting about the existence of WMDs. He said he'd be the first to speak up if none were found. (without looking back on his speeches, I think I have the order of events correct. Hopefully pretty close at least.)

He may have been blinded by his passion and his anger at being attacked as a country on 9/11. It is reported that he was absolutely furious right after 9/11, saying it was an act of war. The Bush administration took up an issue that Kerry was very passionate about, and then twisted it into a pretzel. He indeed wanted us to go after terrorists, and he knows if he had the power, he could have done it correctly.

He wasn't pretending to be a hawk, he is one. Perhaps that was his downfall. That stance made him look like a Republican-lite candidate. But he came to that position honestly. And domestically, he was relatively progressive.

Don't make the Republican mistake of comparing votes that were made 11 years apart. Things change; people change. That's one of the things I like about Kerry. He will look at things as they are NOW, and make decisions based on that.

Some of what I just said came from factcheck.org. Some came from old profile interviews I've read from 2001 and 2002, plus exerpts from various Senate speeches and his book, "A New War."

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  -Why Did Wes Clark rsmith6621  Nov-16-04 12:36 PM   #0 
  - the Republicans labeled him a Republican  shoelace414   Nov-16-04 12:38 PM   #1 
  - Many DUers did also  Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin   Nov-16-04 08:57 PM   #94 
     - As did Dr. Dean.  Bucky   Nov-16-04 11:23 PM   #106 
     - Dean can't run if he's selected to head the DNC  Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin   Nov-16-04 11:40 PM   #109 
     - they were regurgitating the Talking Point point from the RNC  shoelace414   Nov-17-04 07:20 AM   #123 
  - he started too late in the process  WI_DEM   Nov-16-04 12:39 PM   #2 
  - That was probably it  knight_of_the_star   Nov-16-04 12:42 PM   #5 
  - We'll never know what could have happenned...  DjTj   Nov-16-04 06:16 PM   #69 
  - Agree - the late start in the front loaded process was it  Jersey Devil   Nov-16-04 01:49 PM   #34 
  - I think that's the ENTIRE reason right there - late start  HuskerDem   Nov-16-04 10:45 PM   #101 
  - Clark also got a late start, late funding.  Ilsa   Nov-16-04 12:40 PM   #3 
  - Agreed. Got into the race too late. By the time time he did...  KrazyKat   Nov-16-04 06:21 PM   #71 
  - He's not a politician -  sparosnare   Nov-16-04 12:40 PM   #4 
  - I agree....  Claire_beth   Nov-17-04 01:31 PM   #129 
  - What really hurts  ewagner   Nov-16-04 12:42 PM   #6 
  - I don't know how  charlie   Nov-16-04 12:53 PM   #10 
  - He never received any media coverage either  dist22dem   Nov-16-04 12:43 PM   #7 
  - Don't you remember the lead up to his announcement?  AP   Nov-16-04 12:53 PM   #9 
  - The Media Ignored Him In Jan/Early Feb When It Counted  loindelrio   Nov-16-04 01:08 PM   #16 
     - Clark was chasing down Dean in late Dec and early Jan. He was the focus  AP   Nov-16-04 01:22 PM   #22 
        - Clark Can't, But I Can  loindelrio   Nov-16-04 02:30 PM   #41 
           - Here's a good study of media coverage:  AP   Nov-16-04 03:17 PM   #49 
  - My feeling about this is:  AP   Nov-16-04 12:52 PM   #8 
  - And who won?  dogman   Nov-16-04 04:15 PM   #52 
     - I think there's enough evidence that the more people thought about  AP   Nov-16-04 05:03 PM   #55 
        - And who thought the war wasn't the issue that would most affect people?  dogman   Nov-16-04 05:35 PM   #58 
           - According to the study in that link, more people cared about jobs...  AP   Nov-16-04 05:56 PM   #65 
              - I'm not sure how much you followed Clark's campaign.  dogman   Nov-16-04 07:29 PM   #82 
                 - During the primaries people would often say in defense of their candidates  AP   Nov-16-04 07:54 PM   #83 
                    - If Clark were only a General, he would be limited.  dogman   Nov-16-04 08:21 PM   #87 
                       - Many Democrats have run for office and have downplayed their military...  AP   Nov-16-04 08:30 PM   #88 
                          - I think he will make the determination based on the situation.  dogman   Nov-16-04 10:08 PM   #96 
  - He was more sincere  Leilani   Nov-16-04 12:57 PM   #11 
  - Which democratic candidates do you think told lies?  AP   Nov-16-04 12:58 PM   #12 
     - Do you want me to name names?  Leilani   Nov-16-04 01:00 PM   #13 
        - Why don't you name names AND lies, and we'll discuss.  AP   Nov-16-04 01:01 PM   #14 
        - John Kerry said he would  Leilani   Nov-16-04 01:11 PM   #20 
           - Just as a I thought.  AP   Nov-16-04 01:16 PM   #21 
           - It is not an insult  Leilani   Nov-16-04 01:39 PM   #30 
              - I think that Edwards's experience of life in America makes him more...  AP   Nov-16-04 01:44 PM   #31 
              - Look, I don't want to keep arguing.  Leilani   Nov-16-04 02:11 PM   #38 
              - I didn't bring Edwards into this. You did with your evidence of other  AP   Nov-16-04 02:17 PM   #40 
                 - Long before the votes were cast Clark testified against  Leilani   Nov-16-04 02:59 PM   #46 
                    - Whatever.  AP   Nov-16-04 03:33 PM   #50 
              - Then why didn't Americans buy Edwards?  Sleepless In NY   Nov-16-04 02:46 PM   #44 
                 - How many times did Edwards visit Southern states?  DjTj   Nov-16-04 08:51 PM   #91 
              - A man changes from 1992 to 2003  LittleClarkie   Nov-17-04 01:38 AM   #114 
           - Yes, I expressly remember  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 06:30 PM   #73 
              - That's not a lie.  AP   Nov-16-04 07:09 PM   #80 
                 - You and I just have different definitions...  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 08:49 PM   #90 
                    - When you find the definition of "highly qualified in FP and NS"  AP   Nov-17-04 09:52 AM   #124 
                       - It's obvious that in the context of this debate  crunchyfrog   Nov-17-04 01:44 PM   #130 
        - In other words, Yes. Please name names.  AP   Nov-16-04 01:08 PM   #17 
  - The media dissed him. Dean, Kerry and Lieberman all ridiculed him.  Kahuna   Nov-16-04 01:06 PM   #15 
  - When did Kerry ridicule Clark? I thought they got along well, except when  AP   Nov-16-04 01:10 PM   #19 
  - I think it was Bob Dole who did that  Sparkly   Nov-16-04 01:26 PM   #24 
  - Kerry criticized Clark for being a "freshly minted Democrat." and also..  Kahuna   Nov-16-04 01:33 PM   #26 
  - That's not exactly "ridicule" and were certainly things that would have  AP   Nov-16-04 01:37 PM   #28 
  - Your definition of ridicule is ridiculous. No offense.  Kahuna   Nov-16-04 11:07 PM   #102 
     - I'm not offended in the least.  AP   Nov-17-04 01:03 AM   #111 
  - I remember that. n/t  HoosierClarkie   Nov-16-04 01:38 PM   #29 
  - I could post a picture of one of Kerry's  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 06:41 PM   #75 
     - How do you know the walking point was something Kerry's campaign  AP   Nov-16-04 07:05 PM   #79 
        - I can't even tell what you're talking about  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 08:10 PM   #85 
           - OK. I'll try to make it simpler:  AP   Nov-16-04 08:14 PM   #86 
              - You excel in the art of inference AP.  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 09:50 PM   #95 
                 - "Talking Point" is something walkers are given on campaigns and I thought  AP   Nov-17-04 01:07 AM   #112 
                    - I don't know what in my post you would find confusing  crunchyfrog   Nov-17-04 10:34 AM   #125 
  - You're right, all the candidates kept bringing up Clark's "switch"  Sleepless In NY   Nov-16-04 02:52 PM   #45 
     - Actually, there never was any "switch"  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 06:59 PM   #78 
  - He had no democratic record  Cheswick2.0   Nov-16-04 01:10 PM   #18 
  - if Lincoln Chaffee switched tomorrow would democrats complain?  Sleepless In NY   Nov-16-04 03:13 PM   #48 
  - That is a very inaccurate statement you're making.  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 07:14 PM   #81 
  - The media ignored him.  in_cog_ni_to   Nov-16-04 01:24 PM   #23 
  - They ignored Kerry and Edwards and they came in first and second.  AP   Nov-16-04 01:31 PM   #25 
  - Some Democrats  HoosierClarkie   Nov-16-04 01:37 PM   #27 
  - He is just too  samtob   Nov-16-04 01:46 PM   #32 
  - He is gorgeous...  Ronnie   Nov-16-04 02:12 PM   #39 
  - I think it was mostly a matter of logistics  Sparkly   Nov-16-04 01:48 PM   #33 
  - I was a Clarkie until he dropped out. I think what hurt him  Killarney   Nov-16-04 01:50 PM   #35 
  - I don't think he needs to run for Senate or Governor  Sparkly   Nov-16-04 01:57 PM   #36 
  - i hope he runs again in 08  teevee99   Nov-16-04 02:02 PM   #37 
  - you didn't hear? He was a "perfumed prince" who "almost started WWIII"  Nordic   Nov-16-04 02:34 PM   #42 
  - 2 words: man titties! (Hawai)  robbedvoter   Nov-16-04 02:36 PM   #43 
  - Would have loved to see Bush & Clark in a debate on Iraq!  MinnesotaMike31   Nov-16-04 03:07 PM   #47 
     - Words would have been useless: a killer look would have done it  robbedvoter   Nov-16-04 06:16 PM   #68 
  - I really never figured out how Kerry came on top.  Cleita   Nov-16-04 03:50 PM   #51 
  - dug back into the archives  m berst   Nov-16-04 04:22 PM   #53 
  - and then after Clark dropped out I wrote...  m berst   Nov-16-04 04:32 PM   #54 
  - Shit, M Berst, I didn't need to read that right now. Thanks a lot.  Bucky   Nov-16-04 11:30 PM   #108 
     - oh no  m berst   Nov-17-04 01:10 AM   #113 
  - Because he decided to traipse into politics without a political background  JVS   Nov-16-04 05:08 PM   #56 
  - tell that to Arnold Schwarzenegger! LOL!  Sleepless In NY   Nov-16-04 05:22 PM   #57 
  - I guess Arnold was lucky that he was popular enough to pull it off  JVS   Nov-16-04 05:40 PM   #60 
  - Clarks experience was very relevant to doing the job  Jim4Wes   Nov-16-04 05:35 PM   #59 
  - It wasn't relevant to getting elected. Which is very relevant to the job  JVS   Nov-16-04 05:41 PM   #61 
     - too bad grassroots support don't mean shit, huh. -eom  Jim4Wes   Nov-16-04 06:01 PM   #66 
  - Don't you remember? He was DRAFTED!!!!!!!  Anti Bush   Nov-16-04 05:44 PM   #62 
  - THANK YOU for pointing that out  renate   Nov-16-04 11:59 PM   #110 
  - It's been pointed out, but you may have missed it.  dogman   Nov-16-04 05:46 PM   #63 
  - A man of character  zacho   Nov-16-04 05:52 PM   #64 
  - I honestly think that it had most to do  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 06:09 PM   #67 
  - I second that.  Anti Bush   Nov-16-04 06:21 PM   #70 
  - "If he does run again, I will fight for him like a pitbull on steroids."  sendero   Nov-16-04 06:46 PM   #76 
  - He was Rove's worst nightmare - so they laid into him with all barrels  robbedvoter   Nov-16-04 06:24 PM   #72 
  - I supported Wes, but soon realized that he's not an experienced  TexasSissy   Nov-16-04 06:39 PM   #74 
  - He's not inexperienced now  Clarkie1   Nov-16-04 08:55 PM   #93 
     - True enough. But Kerry had over 20 years of political experience...  TexasSissy   Nov-17-04 12:36 PM   #127 
  - Late entry into the game, skipped Iowa, BAD campaign organization.  Cuban_Liberal   Nov-16-04 06:48 PM   #77 
  - That's basically it  Hippo_Tron   Nov-16-04 11:16 PM   #104 
  - BAD campaign organization  m berst   Nov-17-04 03:11 AM   #120 
  - I think the wing of the party that is anti-military anything comes out  Clarkie1   Nov-16-04 07:58 PM   #84 
  - Actually the Dems called him a republican  Donna Zen   Nov-16-04 08:45 PM   #89 
     - I was trying to be "polite"; Rangle was high profile and very Pro-Clark  Clarkie1   Nov-16-04 08:54 PM   #92 
  - Because he is a giant BORE...  Placebo   Nov-16-04 10:12 PM   #97 
  - " Because he is a giant BORE..." BULL  Anti Bush   Nov-16-04 10:38 PM   #98 
  - I disagree  Sparkly   Nov-16-04 10:41 PM   #99 
  - Sorry, dupe  Anti Bush   Nov-16-04 10:42 PM   #100 
  - Weird. The man has lived a fascinating life and made history.  exJW   Nov-16-04 11:27 PM   #107 
  - Nah...I dont like him but he was far from boring  Forkboy   Nov-17-04 02:31 AM   #118 
  - That was very constructive and helpful.  crunchyfrog   Nov-17-04 10:49 AM   #126 
  - B I N G O  ArkDem   Nov-17-04 05:18 PM   #135 
  - I contributed to the Draft Clark Movement...  NurseLefty   Nov-16-04 11:11 PM   #103 
  - One thing that most people tend to forget about Clark...  Hippo_Tron   Nov-16-04 11:22 PM   #105 
  - In pure political terms, he dropped out of Iowa.  elperromagico   Nov-17-04 01:41 AM   #115 
  - Yes indeedy  LittleClarkie   Nov-17-04 02:02 AM   #117 
  - He entered late  fujiyama   Nov-17-04 01:45 AM   #116 
  - Wes Clark is a statesman  FrenchieCat   Nov-17-04 02:45 AM   #119 
  - Frenchie, mon amie, you're right on the mark with this synopsis  Husb2Sparkly   Nov-17-04 03:59 AM   #121 
  - Wes Clark is the finest man to run for the Presidency in my lifetime...  Totally Committed   Nov-17-04 01:18 PM   #128 
     - I could Not have said it any better...  mcscajun   Nov-18-04 02:35 PM   #136 
  - Clark's been a great asset not imho a great candidate  bklyncowgirl   Nov-17-04 06:10 AM   #122 
  - Had any of the other candidates entered as late as Clark did  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-17-04 03:20 PM   #131 
     - Great post, you make when want to place money on it. :)  Jim4Wes   Nov-17-04 05:10 PM   #134 
  - The hearts he captured, he still has - no mean feat  robbedvoter   Nov-17-04 03:59 PM   #132 
  - It is already showing, robbed, IMO. n/t  democratreformed   Nov-18-04 02:51 PM   #137 
  - I agree, everything he said hit it for me.  bhunt70   Nov-17-04 04:02 PM   #133 
 

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