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Reply #83: During the primaries people would often say in defense of their candidates [View All]

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. During the primaries people would often say in defense of their candidates
"look it up on their website."

I know what Clark did during the campaign, but what is really important is what he was perceived as being. Clark may have had a good chat on lots of core liberal issues, but 95% of his campaign was a response to Iraq. If you look at the arguments by Clark enthusiasts this is what you see most often as the reason they think Clark is relevant. They say the war means we need someone with military credentials.

The thing that I'm trying to separate out is whether people were voting for Bush because they thought Kerry was a risk -- that he wasn't good on national security -- and the people who are just listening to the candidates present the issues they think are most important and at the end of it saying, "well, if jobs, education and health care are the most important issue, I'm voting for Democrats, but if the war is the most important issue I'm voting for the Republicans."

I think there are a lot of people out there who think that way. How else can you reconcile the fact that people KNOW Bush is bad on the war, but voted for him over Kerry when the talk turned to OBL and missing explosives. It makes no sense that you'd want Bush after hearing that he couldn't even secure explosives that US soldiers were looking at. But guess what? If there are terrorists out there with explosives, I guess voters want the guy with the itchy trigger finger, rather than the nuanced theorist and critic of people with itchy trigger fingers.

I grant that Clark might have gotten some people to think that maybe the democrats are better on war issues, but I think for every one person he converted that way there would have been five who said, "well, if the Democrats think the war is so important that they're running a general, than I'm voting for the party that is better on war...the Republicans."

I really think that sort of happened this year. I think that a lot of voters who voted for Bush realize that he's incompetent on the war issue (and what more was Clark going to say to these people other than Bush is incompetent?) but they were convinced that because war was the issue that occupied the most time in the political discussion over the last four years that it's better to stay the course, not change horses, and stick with the Republican TEAM (which includes Powell, Rumsfield and all those other serious war mongers) who are willing to prosecuted this war without being critical or distracted by things like right and wrong.

Fear rarely works to convince people to vote for liberals. I can't think of one time when a liberal won with fear. I believe even Hugo Chvez who tried a coup and failed decided to form a political party which focused on hope and building wealth among the poor. I don't see how Democrats can win in 2008 by saying "yes, the world is scary, so vote for the best soldier." I think they still won't trust the Democratic team and they will still think that -- people like Bush notwithstanding -- the Republicans are the team for fighting wars.

Yes, the democrats need to chip away at the perception that the Republicans are the party of safety, but I don't see how they'll do that by running Clark on the top of a ticket that ends up convincing voters that the Republican world view of fear is reality.

(Hey, what a nice discussion this is, by the way? We're both making our points. I hope you realize that this is a smart debate to have over the next four years (if Kerry doesn't win the recount). This is an important argument the party needs to have.)
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  -Why Did Wes Clark rsmith6621  Nov-16-04 12:36 PM   #0 
  - the Republicans labeled him a Republican  shoelace414   Nov-16-04 12:38 PM   #1 
  - Many DUers did also  Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin   Nov-16-04 08:57 PM   #94 
     - As did Dr. Dean.  Bucky   Nov-16-04 11:23 PM   #106 
     - Dean can't run if he's selected to head the DNC  Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin   Nov-16-04 11:40 PM   #109 
     - they were regurgitating the Talking Point point from the RNC  shoelace414   Nov-17-04 07:20 AM   #123 
  - he started too late in the process  WI_DEM   Nov-16-04 12:39 PM   #2 
  - That was probably it  knight_of_the_star   Nov-16-04 12:42 PM   #5 
  - We'll never know what could have happenned...  DjTj   Nov-16-04 06:16 PM   #69 
  - Agree - the late start in the front loaded process was it  Jersey Devil   Nov-16-04 01:49 PM   #34 
  - I think that's the ENTIRE reason right there - late start  HuskerDem   Nov-16-04 10:45 PM   #101 
  - Clark also got a late start, late funding.  Ilsa   Nov-16-04 12:40 PM   #3 
  - Agreed. Got into the race too late. By the time time he did...  KrazyKat   Nov-16-04 06:21 PM   #71 
  - He's not a politician -  sparosnare   Nov-16-04 12:40 PM   #4 
  - I agree....  Claire_beth   Nov-17-04 01:31 PM   #129 
  - What really hurts  ewagner   Nov-16-04 12:42 PM   #6 
  - I don't know how  charlie   Nov-16-04 12:53 PM   #10 
  - He never received any media coverage either  dist22dem   Nov-16-04 12:43 PM   #7 
  - Don't you remember the lead up to his announcement?  AP   Nov-16-04 12:53 PM   #9 
  - The Media Ignored Him In Jan/Early Feb When It Counted  loindelrio   Nov-16-04 01:08 PM   #16 
     - Clark was chasing down Dean in late Dec and early Jan. He was the focus  AP   Nov-16-04 01:22 PM   #22 
        - Clark Can't, But I Can  loindelrio   Nov-16-04 02:30 PM   #41 
           - Here's a good study of media coverage:  AP   Nov-16-04 03:17 PM   #49 
  - My feeling about this is:  AP   Nov-16-04 12:52 PM   #8 
  - And who won?  dogman   Nov-16-04 04:15 PM   #52 
     - I think there's enough evidence that the more people thought about  AP   Nov-16-04 05:03 PM   #55 
        - And who thought the war wasn't the issue that would most affect people?  dogman   Nov-16-04 05:35 PM   #58 
           - According to the study in that link, more people cared about jobs...  AP   Nov-16-04 05:56 PM   #65 
              - I'm not sure how much you followed Clark's campaign.  dogman   Nov-16-04 07:29 PM   #82 
                 - During the primaries people would often say in defense of their candidates  AP   Nov-16-04 07:54 PM   #83 
                    - If Clark were only a General, he would be limited.  dogman   Nov-16-04 08:21 PM   #87 
                       - Many Democrats have run for office and have downplayed their military...  AP   Nov-16-04 08:30 PM   #88 
                          - I think he will make the determination based on the situation.  dogman   Nov-16-04 10:08 PM   #96 
  - He was more sincere  Leilani   Nov-16-04 12:57 PM   #11 
  - Which democratic candidates do you think told lies?  AP   Nov-16-04 12:58 PM   #12 
     - Do you want me to name names?  Leilani   Nov-16-04 01:00 PM   #13 
        - Why don't you name names AND lies, and we'll discuss.  AP   Nov-16-04 01:01 PM   #14 
        - John Kerry said he would  Leilani   Nov-16-04 01:11 PM   #20 
           - Just as a I thought.  AP   Nov-16-04 01:16 PM   #21 
           - It is not an insult  Leilani   Nov-16-04 01:39 PM   #30 
              - I think that Edwards's experience of life in America makes him more...  AP   Nov-16-04 01:44 PM   #31 
              - Look, I don't want to keep arguing.  Leilani   Nov-16-04 02:11 PM   #38 
              - I didn't bring Edwards into this. You did with your evidence of other  AP   Nov-16-04 02:17 PM   #40 
                 - Long before the votes were cast Clark testified against  Leilani   Nov-16-04 02:59 PM   #46 
                    - Whatever.  AP   Nov-16-04 03:33 PM   #50 
              - Then why didn't Americans buy Edwards?  Sleepless In NY   Nov-16-04 02:46 PM   #44 
                 - How many times did Edwards visit Southern states?  DjTj   Nov-16-04 08:51 PM   #91 
              - A man changes from 1992 to 2003  LittleClarkie   Nov-17-04 01:38 AM   #114 
           - Yes, I expressly remember  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 06:30 PM   #73 
              - That's not a lie.  AP   Nov-16-04 07:09 PM   #80 
                 - You and I just have different definitions...  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 08:49 PM   #90 
                    - When you find the definition of "highly qualified in FP and NS"  AP   Nov-17-04 09:52 AM   #124 
                       - It's obvious that in the context of this debate  crunchyfrog   Nov-17-04 01:44 PM   #130 
        - In other words, Yes. Please name names.  AP   Nov-16-04 01:08 PM   #17 
  - The media dissed him. Dean, Kerry and Lieberman all ridiculed him.  Kahuna   Nov-16-04 01:06 PM   #15 
  - When did Kerry ridicule Clark? I thought they got along well, except when  AP   Nov-16-04 01:10 PM   #19 
  - I think it was Bob Dole who did that  Sparkly   Nov-16-04 01:26 PM   #24 
  - Kerry criticized Clark for being a "freshly minted Democrat." and also..  Kahuna   Nov-16-04 01:33 PM   #26 
  - That's not exactly "ridicule" and were certainly things that would have  AP   Nov-16-04 01:37 PM   #28 
  - Your definition of ridicule is ridiculous. No offense.  Kahuna   Nov-16-04 11:07 PM   #102 
     - I'm not offended in the least.  AP   Nov-17-04 01:03 AM   #111 
  - I remember that. n/t  HoosierClarkie   Nov-16-04 01:38 PM   #29 
  - I could post a picture of one of Kerry's  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 06:41 PM   #75 
     - How do you know the walking point was something Kerry's campaign  AP   Nov-16-04 07:05 PM   #79 
        - I can't even tell what you're talking about  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 08:10 PM   #85 
           - OK. I'll try to make it simpler:  AP   Nov-16-04 08:14 PM   #86 
              - You excel in the art of inference AP.  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 09:50 PM   #95 
                 - "Talking Point" is something walkers are given on campaigns and I thought  AP   Nov-17-04 01:07 AM   #112 
                    - I don't know what in my post you would find confusing  crunchyfrog   Nov-17-04 10:34 AM   #125 
  - You're right, all the candidates kept bringing up Clark's "switch"  Sleepless In NY   Nov-16-04 02:52 PM   #45 
     - Actually, there never was any "switch"  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 06:59 PM   #78 
  - He had no democratic record  Cheswick2.0   Nov-16-04 01:10 PM   #18 
  - if Lincoln Chaffee switched tomorrow would democrats complain?  Sleepless In NY   Nov-16-04 03:13 PM   #48 
  - That is a very inaccurate statement you're making.  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 07:14 PM   #81 
  - The media ignored him.  in_cog_ni_to   Nov-16-04 01:24 PM   #23 
  - They ignored Kerry and Edwards and they came in first and second.  AP   Nov-16-04 01:31 PM   #25 
  - Some Democrats  HoosierClarkie   Nov-16-04 01:37 PM   #27 
  - He is just too  samtob   Nov-16-04 01:46 PM   #32 
  - He is gorgeous...  Ronnie   Nov-16-04 02:12 PM   #39 
  - I think it was mostly a matter of logistics  Sparkly   Nov-16-04 01:48 PM   #33 
  - I was a Clarkie until he dropped out. I think what hurt him  Killarney   Nov-16-04 01:50 PM   #35 
  - I don't think he needs to run for Senate or Governor  Sparkly   Nov-16-04 01:57 PM   #36 
  - i hope he runs again in 08  teevee99   Nov-16-04 02:02 PM   #37 
  - you didn't hear? He was a "perfumed prince" who "almost started WWIII"  Nordic   Nov-16-04 02:34 PM   #42 
  - 2 words: man titties! (Hawai)  robbedvoter   Nov-16-04 02:36 PM   #43 
  - Would have loved to see Bush & Clark in a debate on Iraq!  MinnesotaMike31   Nov-16-04 03:07 PM   #47 
     - Words would have been useless: a killer look would have done it  robbedvoter   Nov-16-04 06:16 PM   #68 
  - I really never figured out how Kerry came on top.  Cleita   Nov-16-04 03:50 PM   #51 
  - dug back into the archives  m berst   Nov-16-04 04:22 PM   #53 
  - and then after Clark dropped out I wrote...  m berst   Nov-16-04 04:32 PM   #54 
  - Shit, M Berst, I didn't need to read that right now. Thanks a lot.  Bucky   Nov-16-04 11:30 PM   #108 
     - oh no  m berst   Nov-17-04 01:10 AM   #113 
  - Because he decided to traipse into politics without a political background  JVS   Nov-16-04 05:08 PM   #56 
  - tell that to Arnold Schwarzenegger! LOL!  Sleepless In NY   Nov-16-04 05:22 PM   #57 
  - I guess Arnold was lucky that he was popular enough to pull it off  JVS   Nov-16-04 05:40 PM   #60 
  - Clarks experience was very relevant to doing the job  Jim4Wes   Nov-16-04 05:35 PM   #59 
  - It wasn't relevant to getting elected. Which is very relevant to the job  JVS   Nov-16-04 05:41 PM   #61 
     - too bad grassroots support don't mean shit, huh. -eom  Jim4Wes   Nov-16-04 06:01 PM   #66 
  - Don't you remember? He was DRAFTED!!!!!!!  Anti Bush   Nov-16-04 05:44 PM   #62 
  - THANK YOU for pointing that out  renate   Nov-16-04 11:59 PM   #110 
  - It's been pointed out, but you may have missed it.  dogman   Nov-16-04 05:46 PM   #63 
  - A man of character  zacho   Nov-16-04 05:52 PM   #64 
  - I honestly think that it had most to do  crunchyfrog   Nov-16-04 06:09 PM   #67 
  - I second that.  Anti Bush   Nov-16-04 06:21 PM   #70 
  - "If he does run again, I will fight for him like a pitbull on steroids."  sendero   Nov-16-04 06:46 PM   #76 
  - He was Rove's worst nightmare - so they laid into him with all barrels  robbedvoter   Nov-16-04 06:24 PM   #72 
  - I supported Wes, but soon realized that he's not an experienced  TexasSissy   Nov-16-04 06:39 PM   #74 
  - He's not inexperienced now  Clarkie1   Nov-16-04 08:55 PM   #93 
     - True enough. But Kerry had over 20 years of political experience...  TexasSissy   Nov-17-04 12:36 PM   #127 
  - Late entry into the game, skipped Iowa, BAD campaign organization.  Cuban_Liberal   Nov-16-04 06:48 PM   #77 
  - That's basically it  Hippo_Tron   Nov-16-04 11:16 PM   #104 
  - BAD campaign organization  m berst   Nov-17-04 03:11 AM   #120 
  - I think the wing of the party that is anti-military anything comes out  Clarkie1   Nov-16-04 07:58 PM   #84 
  - Actually the Dems called him a republican  Donna Zen   Nov-16-04 08:45 PM   #89 
     - I was trying to be "polite"; Rangle was high profile and very Pro-Clark  Clarkie1   Nov-16-04 08:54 PM   #92 
  - Because he is a giant BORE...  Placebo   Nov-16-04 10:12 PM   #97 
  - " Because he is a giant BORE..." BULL  Anti Bush   Nov-16-04 10:38 PM   #98 
  - I disagree  Sparkly   Nov-16-04 10:41 PM   #99 
  - Sorry, dupe  Anti Bush   Nov-16-04 10:42 PM   #100 
  - Weird. The man has lived a fascinating life and made history.  exJW   Nov-16-04 11:27 PM   #107 
  - Nah...I dont like him but he was far from boring  Forkboy   Nov-17-04 02:31 AM   #118 
  - That was very constructive and helpful.  crunchyfrog   Nov-17-04 10:49 AM   #126 
  - B I N G O  ArkDem   Nov-17-04 05:18 PM   #135 
  - I contributed to the Draft Clark Movement...  NurseLefty   Nov-16-04 11:11 PM   #103 
  - One thing that most people tend to forget about Clark...  Hippo_Tron   Nov-16-04 11:22 PM   #105 
  - In pure political terms, he dropped out of Iowa.  elperromagico   Nov-17-04 01:41 AM   #115 
  - Yes indeedy  LittleClarkie   Nov-17-04 02:02 AM   #117 
  - He entered late  fujiyama   Nov-17-04 01:45 AM   #116 
  - Wes Clark is a statesman  FrenchieCat   Nov-17-04 02:45 AM   #119 
  - Frenchie, mon amie, you're right on the mark with this synopsis  Husb2Sparkly   Nov-17-04 03:59 AM   #121 
  - Wes Clark is the finest man to run for the Presidency in my lifetime...  Totally Committed   Nov-17-04 01:18 PM   #128 
     - I could Not have said it any better...  mcscajun   Nov-18-04 02:35 PM   #136 
  - Clark's been a great asset not imho a great candidate  bklyncowgirl   Nov-17-04 06:10 AM   #122 
  - Had any of the other candidates entered as late as Clark did  Tom Rinaldo   Nov-17-04 03:20 PM   #131 
     - Great post, you make when want to place money on it. :)  Jim4Wes   Nov-17-04 05:10 PM   #134 
  - The hearts he captured, he still has - no mean feat  robbedvoter   Nov-17-04 03:59 PM   #132 
  - It is already showing, robbed, IMO. n/t  democratreformed   Nov-18-04 02:51 PM   #137 
  - I agree, everything he said hit it for me.  bhunt70   Nov-17-04 04:02 PM   #133 
 

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