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Reply #83: "For all of recorded history!" ... Simply not true. [View All]

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Arianrhod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-16-04 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
83. "For all of recorded history!" ... Simply not true.
Many ancient cultures held women in high esteem. My own exalted and highly enlightened ancestors, the European Celts, gave women full equality with men in many of their tribes. (There doesn't seem to have been one single people that could be called "Celts". Their culture was spread out from the Danube to Glastonbury, and their social systems varied a bit.) In some, a man could not be crowned king until the High Priestess gave him her blessing. There are graves in which honored warrior chiefs were buried, with full regalia and weapons laid out in ceremonial patterns around the bones. It wasn't until some time into the research that the archeologists discovered that these were women.

Christian society, OTOH, has always denigrated women. From the story of Adam and Eve all the way to Paul's shuddering revulsion in 1 Corinthians 7 ("It is good for a man never to touch a woman"; "It is better to marry than to burn"), the Bible is no champion of women's rights, and sees them as little more than useful for reproduction and releasing men's overwhelming needs. (Seems that even being filled with the Spirit of God cannot cool these fires!) While Christians on here may protest this interpretation, I would remind them that they are speaking from a more enlightened age, and that this is the interpretation to be found in centuries of Church writings, from Augustine to Luther. (Luther was, in fact, a notorious misogynist. His statement, "If a woman dies in childbirth, it is of no consequence; it is what she is here for" is, to me, one of the coldest pronouncements ever made by a "holy" man.) That they, personally, do not adhere to this view is more a function of their own goodness than it is a recognition of Church history.

I think women are feared because of their intense sexual power over men.
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  -Why are women treated so badly? cally  Jul-16-04 12:43 PM   #0 
  - Learned  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:44 PM   #1 
  - LMAO... Damn... was going to say the same thing!!  Misunderestimator   Jul-16-04 12:44 PM   #2 
  - Seriously, though  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:45 PM   #3 
  - I would agree! n/t  MuseRider   Jul-16-04 12:45 PM   #4 
  - Oh please.  DarkPhenyx   Jul-16-04 01:07 PM   #33 
     - lol  redqueen   Jul-16-04 01:20 PM   #49 
     - Jokes like that draw a certain type out like flies to a corpse  Forkboy   Jul-16-04 01:22 PM   #51 
     - My my, first Whoopi, now this...  dirk   Jul-16-04 01:23 PM   #55 
  - in 19th cent and earlier, in family males got more food than females  bobbieinok   Jul-16-04 12:47 PM   #5 
  - Like... insecure assholes scared of being dominated by powerful women?  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:50 PM   #9 
  - 1 suggestion ---- fathers needed strength for manual labor  bobbieinok   Jul-16-04 12:57 PM   #25 
     - Families needed boys to care for them...  tawnnhan   Jul-16-04 07:33 PM   #127 
  - In the 21st century, males get more food than fermales.  Frodo   Jul-16-04 02:23 PM   #80 
     - Interesting idea  cally   Jul-16-04 03:12 PM   #92 
        - Manual Labor Capability  One_Life_To_Give   Jul-16-04 03:26 PM   #98 
        - True One Life  Yupster   Jul-16-04 10:22 PM   #132 
        - Do you really think...  Frodo   Jul-16-04 04:16 PM   #111 
           - No, I didn't make my point  cally   Jul-16-04 05:11 PM   #122 
  - But, it's in the Bible...  porphyrian   Jul-16-04 12:48 PM   #6 
  - Woohoo! Are you a guy?  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:49 PM   #8 
     - Yeah, just don't hold it against me...;)  porphyrian   Jul-16-04 01:08 PM   #34 
        - YAY you! Lack of research into women's health issues  redqueen   Jul-16-04 01:21 PM   #50 
  - Why are there no men on this thread yet?  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:49 PM   #7 
  - Simple  Nederland   Jul-16-04 12:50 PM   #10 
     - Bawk bawk!  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:52 PM   #14 
  - I Doubt Your looking For Any Male Input In This Discussion  FreedomReload   Jul-16-04 12:50 PM   #11 
  - Oh what a copout!  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:51 PM   #13 
  - It isn't a cop out.  DarkPhenyx   Jul-16-04 01:09 PM   #36 
  - Well it sure seems like it to me  redqueen   Jul-16-04 01:23 PM   #53 
     - I agree.  DarkPhenyx   Jul-16-04 01:26 PM   #61 
        - Yeah, you both have a point.  redqueen   Jul-16-04 01:33 PM   #68 
  - "For all of recorded history!" ... Simply not true.  Arianrhod   Jul-16-04 02:56 PM   #83 
     - Well is that really 'recorded'?  redqueen   Jul-16-04 03:34 PM   #103 
        - There're many historians who have an allergy to oral tradition  Snow   Jul-16-04 04:45 PM   #117 
        - Well... not *completely* tangential  redqueen   Jul-16-04 04:53 PM   #119 
           - Hmmmm, hypothesis....  Snow   Jul-16-04 05:45 PM   #123 
        - "Hisotry"?  petronius   Jul-16-04 11:11 PM   #133 
        - Well, it may not be recorded,  Arianrhod   Jul-17-04 02:12 AM   #135 
  - You're wrong  cally   Jul-16-04 12:54 PM   #18 
  - Everybody's a Little Bit Sexist  porphyrian   Jul-16-04 01:13 PM   #41 
  - No, but...  sandnsea   Jul-16-04 01:16 PM   #45 
     - Oops n/t  sandnsea   Jul-16-04 01:22 PM   #52 
  - Depends on which culture.  neuvocat   Jul-16-04 12:50 PM   #12 
  - Now that's interesting  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:53 PM   #15 
  - I'll get back to you on that one.  neuvocat   Jul-16-04 12:54 PM   #19 
  - lol... thanks! Really!  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:55 PM   #20 
  - I'm looking under "matriarchies"  neuvocat   Jul-16-04 01:07 PM   #32 
     - A number of Native American tribes are matriarchal  G_j   Jul-16-04 01:24 PM   #57 
     - Thanks I'll have to look through these. n/t  redqueen   Jul-16-04 01:25 PM   #58 
     - Something else to consider  neuvocat   Jul-16-04 02:24 PM   #82 
     - The Amazons were fictional.  bezdomny   Jul-17-04 04:01 AM   #138 
        - **wiping the egg of his face**  neuvocat   Jul-17-04 11:11 AM   #142 
  - Try China - the character for family name has "mother" as its root  Snow   Jul-16-04 03:04 PM   #87 
  - Females dominant?  TX-RAT   Jul-16-04 01:12 PM   #39 
  - Does that mean she's passionately obsessive-compulsive? (/stereotype) -n/t  porphyrian   Jul-16-04 01:18 PM   #46 
  - Many think that  G_j   Jul-16-04 01:13 PM   #42 
  - shanghai, china  NewJeffCT   Jul-16-04 01:15 PM   #43 
     - That's interesting  cally   Jul-16-04 01:19 PM   #48 
     - I was responding to the above post  NewJeffCT   Jul-16-04 02:12 PM   #76 
     - No way!  redqueen   Jul-16-04 01:26 PM   #60 
        - way  NewJeffCT   Jul-16-04 02:11 PM   #75 
  - Also a bad idea.  DarkPhenyx   Jul-16-04 01:11 PM   #38 
  - The slavery thing has a lot to do with money  rumguy   Jul-16-04 12:53 PM   #16 
  - Physical strength, generally less aggressive  redqueen   Jul-16-04 12:57 PM   #24 
     - Perhaps some of it is built in....  rumguy   Jul-16-04 01:02 PM   #28 
        - What about women who choose abusive relationships?  porphyrian   Jul-16-04 01:27 PM   #64 
           - That's psychological  rumguy   Jul-16-04 01:32 PM   #67 
           - Once again, it's learned  redqueen   Jul-16-04 01:35 PM   #70 
           - Romance novels  Nadienne   Jul-16-04 02:24 PM   #81 
              - today there are lots of different types of romance novels  bobbieinok   Jul-16-04 03:10 PM   #90 
                 - Yeesh,  Nadienne   Jul-16-04 04:59 PM   #120 
  - things that really freaked me out when I started reading about  bobbieinok   Jul-16-04 12:54 PM   #17 
  - she took advantage of it  SemperEadem   Jul-16-04 01:32 PM   #66 
     - I like your interpretation... very well said.  Misunderestimator   Jul-16-04 02:18 PM   #77 
     - Maria, a friend from Croatia  Karenina   Jul-16-04 03:13 PM   #93 
     - Another interpretation of the apple  Nobody   Jul-17-04 11:09 AM   #141 
  - I've always believed  rene moon   Jul-16-04 12:55 PM   #21 
  - Ok, here's my best shot  Nederland   Jul-16-04 12:56 PM   # 
  - Damn  Nederland   Jul-16-04 12:58 PM   #26 
  - I think it depends on the culture.  Nadienne   Jul-16-04 01:05 PM   #29 
  - i think before society was developed..  toddzilla   Jul-16-04 12:56 PM   #22 
  - When you look at those cultures,  cally   Jul-16-04 01:01 PM   #27 
     - Actually, hunter/gatherer societies  Bettie   Jul-16-04 01:10 PM   #37 
  - So that men can retain power  Monica_L   Jul-16-04 12:57 PM   #23 
  - My theory: A psychological fear and jealousy of those who can crate life  iconoclastic cat   Jul-16-04 01:05 PM   #30 
  - I think you're on to something  Forkboy   Jul-16-04 01:23 PM   #56 
  - A slight disagreement with you  dirk   Jul-16-04 01:34 PM   #69 
     - Homophobia  Arianrhod   Jul-16-04 03:04 PM   #88 
        - Hmm...fascinating theory...  porphyrian   Jul-16-04 03:19 PM   #97 
        - Agreed n/t  redqueen   Jul-16-04 03:39 PM   #104 
  - Doweries and Inheritance.  DarkPhenyx   Jul-16-04 01:07 PM   #31 
  - It is bred into every culture because it dates back so far in HIStory  MsUnderstood   Jul-16-04 01:09 PM   #35 
  - You disprove your own conclusion  lukasahero   Jul-16-04 02:21 PM   #79 
  - Isn't part of this the male need to be sure that what he's  bobbieinok   Jul-16-04 03:15 PM   #94 
  - Been studying and researching this all my life, all my life  Mari333   Jul-16-04 01:13 PM   #40 
  - great post  G_j   Jul-16-04 01:18 PM   #47 
  - Thanks for the references!  redqueen   Jul-16-04 01:30 PM   #65 
     - I think the USA is sickenly obnoxiously adolescent right now  Mari333   Jul-16-04 03:11 PM   # 
     - Yes it is  redqueen   Jul-16-04 03:45 PM   #105 
        - True.....!  Mari333   Jul-16-04 04:21 PM   #114 
     - I remember how shocked I was when my son was in 5-6th  bobbieinok   Jul-16-04 03:18 PM   #96 
     - amazingly sad isnt it..the worst thing a boy can call another boy  Mari333   Jul-16-04 03:30 PM   #99 
     - Bless you for taking the time  redqueen   Jul-16-04 03:49 PM   #108 
        - well I figured if I was going to be a mom  Mari333   Jul-16-04 04:18 PM   #112 
        - That's so true  ilovenicepeople   Jul-17-04 12:58 AM   #134 
     - Same as when men call each other "bitch" as an insult  redqueen   Jul-16-04 03:47 PM   #106 
     - One of my male friends  AmyDeLune   Jul-16-04 07:04 PM   #124 
  - As Homer Simpson might say  AG78   Jul-16-04 01:15 PM   #44 
  - Protection from attack  sandnsea   Jul-16-04 01:23 PM   #54 
  - This might be overly simplistic...  pnb   Jul-16-04 01:25 PM   #59 
  - Women are treated badly  Nadienne   Jul-16-04 01:27 PM   #62 
  - Power. Men have more physical power, so historically they subjugated women  truthspeaker   Jul-16-04 01:27 PM   #63 
  - Jane Goodall might throw in her experience with the Chimpanzees as well  shance   Jul-16-04 01:42 PM   #71 
  - I personally believe  HallowsEve   Jul-16-04 01:44 PM   #72 
  - This drives me crazy  cally   Jul-16-04 02:06 PM   #73 
  - Mine blames men  HEyHEY   Jul-16-04 02:58 PM   #84 
  - hallows i dont often here other talk this on this board  seabeyond   Jul-16-04 04:36 PM   #116 
  - I belive some the root problem lies in religion.  PNR   Jul-16-04 02:10 PM   #74 
  - There is also misogyny in non Christian areas  Nikia   Jul-16-04 03:34 PM   #101 
  - Ever hear of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God?  tritsofme   Jul-17-04 03:22 AM   #136 
  - Nature  HEyHEY   Jul-16-04 02:20 PM   #78 
  - Nature also relegates human beings should be pooping their pants  Mari333   Jul-16-04 03:00 PM   #85 
  - Do men really fare any better?  DrWeird   Jul-16-04 03:02 PM   #86 
  - Men , imho, are also relegated to stupid archaic roles  Mari333   Jul-16-04 03:16 PM   #95 
  - Only somewhat  redqueen   Jul-16-04 03:52 PM   #109 
  - In tribal/family centered societies...the individual has little role...  formernaderite   Jul-16-04 03:09 PM   #89 
  - It's a two way street  jpgray   Jul-16-04 03:11 PM   #91 
  - Hey you sound like Dr. Laura!!!  redqueen   Jul-16-04 03:54 PM   #110 
     - I hope I don't :-)  jpgray   Jul-16-04 04:23 PM   #115 
  - I think back when war was face to face hacking, men had  Cleita   Jul-16-04 03:31 PM   #100 
  - Women were preganant or had young children most of their life  Nikia   Jul-16-04 03:47 PM   #107 
     - Contrary to popular perception, women had a variety of  Cleita   Jul-16-04 04:19 PM   #113 
  - If you possibly can, SEE THIS MOVIE  Mari333   Jul-16-04 03:34 PM   #102 
  - I'm kinda burnt out on this issue lately, so I  bunnyj   Jul-16-04 04:52 PM   #118 
  - With so much of it right here at DU, how can we expect any different  Kanary   Jul-16-04 05:03 PM   #121 
  - the downfall of woman conincided with the rise of patriarchy  noiretblu   Jul-16-04 07:15 PM   #125 
  - Conservatives/Fundies want women to be subservient to men.  DaveSZ   Jul-16-04 07:25 PM   #126 
     - indeed....woman hatred is the father of all hatred, imho eom  noiretblu   Jul-17-04 10:24 AM   #140 
  - I think it's biological...  qwlauren35   Jul-16-04 07:33 PM   #128 
  - Original sin...  Piperay   Jul-16-04 07:36 PM   #129 
  - Physical weakness + testosterone = slavery  WilliamPitt   Jul-16-04 07:39 PM   #130 
  - NPR had a segment on HIV in India, today  bloom   Jul-16-04 08:56 PM   #131 
  - It's because men are kinda insane and love to make war.  Rex   Jul-17-04 03:25 AM   #137 
  - why?  greymattermom   Jul-17-04 09:35 AM   #139 
 

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