| 95. "Vouchers provide a quicker solution." For whom? |
| -do you know anyone wants vouchers |
pstokely |
Aug-18-03 05:26 AM |
#0 |
 -
Some want them for religious education... |
rfranklin |
Aug-18-03 06:34 AM |
#1 |
  -
a $1000. voucher will do NOTHING to get these kids in a better school |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Aug-18-03 10:04 AM |
#8 |
| -
Yes, but... |
zoidberg |
Aug-18-03 10:20 AM |
#15 |
| -
You know what would happen if the gov't gave everyone 1K or 8K |
AP |
Aug-18-03 10:47 AM |
#22 |
| -
hm, thats strange because the average tuition |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-18-03 11:46 AM |
#39 |
| -
$5600 where I live |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 01:54 PM |
#54 |
| -
but if one is not Catholic |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 03:23 PM |
#82 |
| -
only mentioned them because |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-19-03 12:18 PM |
#196 |
| -
parochial schools tend to be the cheapest |
ulysses |
Aug-20-03 04:33 AM |
#217 |
| -
nearesr Parochial school is 35 miles away and it only goes to 8th gd |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Aug-18-03 08:16 PM |
#160 |
| -
People who already are in private schools want them. |
The Backlash Cometh |
Aug-18-03 09:46 AM |
#2 |
| -
Private school parent here who doesn't want them even though it is |
MrsGrumpy |
Aug-18-03 10:03 AM |
#7 |
| -
Yes, everyone who is already paying for private school |
slackmaster |
Aug-18-03 09:55 AM |
#3 |
| -
Disagree, and my kid goes to a private school. I don't want vouchers... |
MrsGrumpy |
Aug-18-03 10:02 AM |
#6 |
| -
OK, "everyone" was an exaggeration |
slackmaster |
Aug-18-03 10:07 AM |
#9 |
| -
Actually, we are quite lucky. Our tuition is only $2000 which is difficult |
MrsGrumpy |
Aug-18-03 10:10 AM |
#12 |
| -
well your reason "get her away from certain group of kids" ..... |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Aug-18-03 10:09 AM |
#10 |
| -
It hasn't a damn thing to do with drugs, and everything to do with |
MrsGrumpy |
Aug-18-03 10:17 AM |
#14 |
| -
mrsgrumpy...whoah..sorry and you're correct... |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Aug-18-03 11:01 AM |
#28 |
| -
Forgiven. |
MrsGrumpy |
Aug-18-03 02:02 PM |
#57 |
| -
That's an interesting point |
zoidberg |
Aug-18-03 10:22 AM |
#16 |
| -
think about this... |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-18-03 11:52 AM |
#42 |
| -
Oooh .... arithmetic! |
recidivist |
Aug-18-03 03:57 PM |
#99 |
| -
it may be true |
darboy |
Aug-18-03 05:54 PM |
#142 |
| -
Interesting |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 06:17 PM |
#146 |
| -
oh my, there is SO much wrong with your post... where to start? |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-19-03 12:32 PM |
#197 |
| -
In CO, the voucher leaves 15% of the district's . . . |
donco6 |
Aug-18-03 09:21 PM |
#166 |
| -
I knew someone who used Pell Grants to help pay for Rice |
zoidberg |
Aug-18-03 09:59 AM |
#4 |
| -
i know a texas friend bush lover who has his kids in very upscale... |
ElsewheresDaughter |
Aug-18-03 10:01 AM |
#5 |
| -
Yes |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 10:09 AM |
#11 |
| -
Wouldn't SAT scores show that? |
Blue_Chill |
Aug-18-03 11:04 AM |
#30 |
| -
SAT's only part of it |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 12:00 PM |
#45 |
| -
As long as you look at retention & test rates |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 01:59 PM |
#55 |
| -
That's a long time to wait to determine effectiveness. |
donco6 |
Aug-18-03 09:23 PM |
#167 |
| -
Vouchers are needed |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 10:13 AM |
#13 |
| -
One question |
Bridget Burke |
Aug-18-03 10:31 AM |
#17 |
| -
Nope |
bicentennial_baby |
Aug-18-03 10:33 AM |
#19 |
| -
the issue is not |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-18-03 11:56 AM |
#43 |
| -
If overnight tomorrow, each kid got a voucher, |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 05:29 PM |
#130 |
| -
FINALLY |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-19-03 12:35 PM |
#198 |
| -
great....the big gamble |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 08:16 AM |
#221 |
| -
Then you try something else |
Yupster |
Aug-20-03 09:26 AM |
#227 |
| -
What if it only gets the kid into an adequate private school |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 05:30 PM |
#131 |
| -
To improve public schools, put tax money into public schools |
AP |
Aug-18-03 10:49 AM |
#23 |
| -
I disagree |
Blue_Chill |
Aug-18-03 10:58 AM |
#26 |
| -
Why are many schools failing? |
Star |
Aug-20-03 12:02 AM |
#214 |
| -
History |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 11:46 AM |
#40 |
| -
DUH...can't throw money at the problem!!!! |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:16 PM |
#63 |
| -
If a school is currently getting |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 05:31 PM |
#132 |
| -
No. Why can't we just improve the failing Public Schools? |
JanMichael |
Aug-18-03 10:32 AM |
#18 |
| -
The attack |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 10:46 AM |
#21 |
| -
But your solution -- help this generation of students -- |
AP |
Aug-18-03 10:52 AM |
#24 |
| -
Destroying public education |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 11:07 AM |
#34 |
| -
destroyed communities = destroyed schools |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 05:49 PM |
#139 |
| -
No |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 11:12 AM |
#37 |
| -
How does it help public schools to take money out of the public purse |
AP |
Aug-18-03 03:22 PM |
#81 |
| -
why do you assume that |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-19-03 10:59 PM |
#208 |
| -
That's only half of it. |
JanMichael |
Aug-18-03 10:56 AM |
#25 |
| -
Quality education can not be sacrificed for social engineering |
Blue_Chill |
Aug-18-03 11:03 AM |
#29 |
| -
Ah, but it's not about being incompetant. |
JanMichael |
Aug-18-03 11:05 AM |
#31 |
| -
Sacrificing others |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 11:08 AM |
#35 |
| -
the schools were puroposely damaged |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:24 PM |
#66 |
| -
D.C. is different |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 02:40 PM |
#70 |
| -
where is the money going? is it being spent properly? |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:48 PM |
#75 |
| -
gitcha new model here |
ma4t |
Aug-19-03 11:49 AM |
#194 |
| -
Sacrifice adults who don't do their job or children? |
Blue_Chill |
Aug-18-03 11:10 AM |
#36 |
| -
equal accountability...i'm all for it |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:28 PM |
#68 |
| -
I don't care who people blame |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 05:41 PM |
#137 |
| -
will vouchers put poor kids in your son's school? |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 05:47 PM |
#138 |
| -
My thought is |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 08:29 PM |
#162 |
| -
where are these schools? do they exist? who would run them? |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 09:38 PM |
#169 |
| -
I think they would be |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 10:38 PM |
#174 |
| -
impossible to know how vouchers would actually work?!?! |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 08:24 AM |
#223 |
| -
Yes, new ideas and new alternatives |
Yupster |
Aug-20-03 09:31 AM |
#228 |
| -
i'm all for experimentation |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 01:27 PM |
#232 |
| -
What would happen to a senior who refused to participate? |
Star |
Aug-20-03 09:45 AM |
#231 |
| -
trust me |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-18-03 12:07 PM |
#47 |
| -
For Parents, There's Always an Option |
Crisco |
Aug-18-03 10:59 AM |
#27 |
| -
fix the problems? what a novel concept |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:18 PM |
#64 |
| -
Even with vouchers |
DoYouEverWonder |
Aug-18-03 03:57 PM |
#100 |
| -
Got a plan? |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 11:48 AM |
#41 |
| -
Perhaps change the way that they're financed? |
JanMichael |
Aug-18-03 12:41 PM |
#50 |
| -
How About This? |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 01:20 PM |
#52 |
| -
because |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-18-03 11:59 AM |
#44 |
| -
OMFG. Not ALL are BAD!!!!! |
JanMichael |
Aug-18-03 12:43 PM |
#51 |
| -
I support vouchers in theory.. |
MaverickX |
Aug-18-03 10:34 AM |
#20 |
| -
Sure Do (Know Somebody Who etc.etc.) |
UTUSN |
Aug-18-03 11:06 AM |
#32 |
| -
I know somebody like that too. |
Demobrat |
Aug-18-03 11:15 AM |
#38 |
| -
My parents would have like them very much |
Blue_Chill |
Aug-18-03 11:06 AM |
#33 |
| -
please remember |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-18-03 12:12 PM |
#48 |
| -
But teachers' salaries don't max out that high |
zoidberg |
Aug-18-03 12:14 PM |
#49 |
| -
Response |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 01:25 PM |
#53 |
| -
what about bloated administrative salaries? |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:20 PM |
#65 |
| -
You've got to admit |
Blue_Chill |
Aug-18-03 10:22 PM |
#172 |
| -
what about bloated administrative salaries? |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 08:43 AM |
#225 |
| -
excuse me bt, |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-18-03 02:46 PM |
#72 |
| -
sadly, i believe that is true |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:52 PM |
#76 |
| -
In my district, even with no experience . . . |
donco6 |
Aug-18-03 10:28 PM |
#173 |
| -
worse |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-19-03 12:40 PM |
#200 |
| -
i hear you...even with an MA, in California |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 08:50 AM |
#226 |
| -
Private or religious |
Ramsey |
Aug-18-03 02:16 PM |
#62 |
| -
I Have A 2001 Toyota Solara |
DemocratSinceBirth |
Aug-18-03 12:03 PM |
#46 |
| -
best analogy I've heard |
ButterflyBlood |
Aug-18-03 02:11 PM |
#61 |
| -
what about those who don't have a car? |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:26 PM |
#67 |
| -
The voucher argument misses the point |
jpgray |
Aug-18-03 02:01 PM |
#56 |
| -
Not enough private schools anyway |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 02:07 PM |
#58 |
| -
Not tomorrow, but soon |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 02:10 PM |
#60 |
| -
Educational Management Organizations |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:30 PM |
#69 |
| -
Again, then how do we solve things NOW |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 02:41 PM |
#71 |
| -
i suggest a RADICAL approach |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:46 PM |
#73 |
| -
Gee |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 02:53 PM |
#77 |
| -
that is exactly the problem with vouchers |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 02:57 PM |
#78 |
| -
How do you figure? |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 03:31 PM |
#85 |
| -
bull...a thinly-veiled attempt to transfer public monies |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 03:36 PM |
#88 |
| -
One Question |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 03:37 PM |
#90 |
| -
no kids, but i am becoming a teacher |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 03:47 PM |
#91 |
| -
That Explains Much |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 03:56 PM |
#98 |
| -
Wanna bet his/her kids eventually end up in private school? |
recidivist |
Aug-18-03 04:11 PM |
#107 |
| -
no kids for me...i'll just try to help |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 05:03 PM |
#125 |
| -
yeah...i'm obviously a horrible person |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 04:27 PM |
#115 |
| -
No |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 04:35 PM |
#117 |
| -
there is choice...i am against funding diversion |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 04:54 PM |
#122 |
| -
The nation is responding |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 05:08 PM |
#126 |
| -
desperate people are easily manipulated |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 05:33 PM |
#134 |
| -
Be Specific |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 06:19 PM |
#149 |
| -
management reform...to start |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 07:09 PM |
#154 |
| -
School Boards |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 08:26 AM |
#182 |
| -
no...parents, principals, teachers, and students |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 08:08 AM |
#219 |
| -
thats a silly statement! |
darboy |
Aug-18-03 06:09 PM |
#143 |
| -
Only for the rich? |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 06:19 PM |
#148 |
| -
Rich people have many choices that the rest of us don't have. |
alcuno |
Aug-18-03 07:17 PM |
#155 |
| -
You've got it exactly backwards. |
recidivist |
Aug-19-03 08:49 AM |
#189 |
| -
thanks,darboy...you hear exactly what i'm saying |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 08:31 AM |
#224 |
| -
The rest of the post |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 03:16 PM |
#79 |
| -
and...is there ANY PROOF that vouchers will solve current problems? |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 03:28 PM |
#83 |
| -
No |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 03:36 PM |
#89 |
| -
so...fix the existing system! |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 03:48 PM |
#92 |
| -
Most of the poor don't have the time to wait |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 03:51 PM |
#94 |
| -
"Vouchers provide a quicker solution." For whom? |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 03:52 PM |
#95 |
| -
Yes |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 04:07 PM |
#102 |
| -
WHAT OPTIONS? |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 04:22 PM |
#112 |
| -
The private sector |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 04:26 PM |
#114 |
| -
sorry, but no |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 05:13 PM |
#127 |
| -
What if a teacher opened a private school for voucher kids |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 05:51 PM |
#140 |
| -
sure. |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 06:39 PM |
#152 |
| -
I believe there are many frustrated teachers out there |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 08:36 PM |
#163 |
| -
Charter Schools |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 11:52 PM |
#180 |
| -
Mainstreaming, aka "one size fits all," is part of the problem. |
recidivist |
Aug-19-03 09:15 AM |
#192 |
| -
why WAIT?!?!?!?!?!??! |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 04:43 PM |
#118 |
| -
Private schools are proven |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 04:49 PM |
#120 |
| -
are there enough private schools? NO. |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 04:59 PM |
#124 |
| -
Not at all |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 08:29 AM |
#183 |
| -
so...why not adopt that model in public schools? |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 08:13 AM |
#220 |
| -
Private schools ARE NOT proven |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 05:37 PM |
#136 |
| -
Why? |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 08:31 AM |
#184 |
| -
Private schools are NOT proven. |
alcuno |
Aug-18-03 07:35 PM |
#159 |
| -
Failure |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 08:36 AM |
#185 |
| -
Scene from the movie "Life of Brian" |
Yupster |
Aug-19-03 11:23 PM |
#210 |
| -
Priorities are indeed the issue. |
recidivist |
Aug-18-03 05:16 PM |
#128 |
| -
Post #93 |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 06:12 PM |
#144 |
| -
Wrong |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 05:21 PM |
#129 |
| -
other priorities |
ma4t |
Aug-19-03 12:14 PM |
#195 |
| -
Question |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 04:06 PM |
#101 |
| -
How can there be proof when |
MassDem4Life |
Aug-19-03 11:05 PM |
#209 |
| -
vouchers in Milwaukee... |
snyttri |
Aug-18-03 02:09 PM |
#59 |
| -
I know lots of people that want vouchers |
VoteClark |
Aug-18-03 02:48 PM |
#74 |
| -
a question for voucherites |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 03:21 PM |
#80 |
| -
No |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 03:30 PM |
#84 |
| -
nice dodge. |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 03:32 PM |
#86 |
| -
i like what you said |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 03:32 PM |
#87 |
| -
How are YOU going to choose a school? |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 03:49 PM |
#93 |
| -
As a parent, you pick the one you think is best |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 08:43 PM |
#164 |
| -
Wow |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 10:16 PM |
#171 |
| -
Of course I'm a parent |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 10:46 PM |
#175 |
| -
Teachers know how to evaluate schools |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 11:21 PM |
#179 |
| -
Typical |
Nederland |
Aug-19-03 12:44 PM |
#201 |
| -
And another thing |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 10:58 PM |
#178 |
| -
And another thing |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 11:55 PM |
#181 |
| -
People already do this |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 08:40 AM |
#186 |
| -
Yes |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 03:53 PM |
#96 |
| -
Yes...or no... |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 03:54 PM |
#97 |
| -
Question |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 04:09 PM |
#104 |
| -
Careful now. |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 04:13 PM |
#108 |
| -
What about learning? |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 04:15 PM |
#109 |
| -
In my ideal world |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 04:19 PM |
#110 |
| -
The very few are fine |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 04:21 PM |
#111 |
| -
by "the very few" |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 04:23 PM |
#113 |
| -
Then that is a useless program |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 04:50 PM |
#121 |
| -
do you really think |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 06:32 PM |
#151 |
| -
Private school costs |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 08:43 AM |
#187 |
| -
Response |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 04:33 PM |
#116 |
| -
because public money should, first and foremost, |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 06:18 PM |
#147 |
| -
Confused |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 06:27 PM |
#150 |
| -
that's because your analogy is flawed. |
ulysses |
Aug-18-03 06:47 PM |
#153 |
| -
Socialism and collectivism are two different things. |
recidivist |
Aug-19-03 09:38 AM |
#193 |
| -
Answer |
Nederland |
Aug-19-03 04:31 PM |
#207 |
| -
"What would make you think otherwise?" |
ulysses |
Aug-20-03 03:49 AM |
#215 |
| -
I just want |
Yupster |
Aug-19-03 11:32 PM |
#211 |
| -
no one is saying you can't enroll your kid in a private school. |
ulysses |
Aug-20-03 03:51 AM |
#216 |
| -
No it's not |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-20-03 08:01 AM |
#218 |
| -
I say the issue of |
Yupster |
Aug-20-03 09:39 AM |
#229 |
| -
College isn't required by law |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 04:07 PM |
#103 |
| -
See post #104 (nt) |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 04:09 PM |
#105 |
| -
For mandated education... |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 05:33 PM |
#133 |
| -
Why |
Nederland |
Aug-18-03 06:13 PM |
#145 |
| -
Kneejerk? |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 07:23 PM |
#157 |
| -
And post #93 for you as well |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 07:26 PM |
#158 |
| -
Almost as bad an idea |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-18-03 04:10 PM |
#106 |
| -
See Post #93 |
sandnsea |
Aug-18-03 05:34 PM |
#135 |
| -
Like all parents |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 08:48 AM |
#188 |
| -
I agree with Lieberman on this |
dolstein |
Aug-18-03 04:47 PM |
#119 |
| -
Pilot Programs |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 08:50 AM |
#190 |
| -
Vouchers are a Trojan Horse |
library_max |
Aug-18-03 04:59 PM |
#123 |
| -
excellent post...sums things up nicely |
noiretblu |
Aug-18-03 05:53 PM |
#141 |
| -
Excellent argument. |
alcuno |
Aug-18-03 07:22 PM |
#156 |
| -
School choice is an incorrect term |
flyingfish |
Aug-18-03 08:22 PM |
#161 |
| -
You must be wealthy |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 08:52 AM |
#191 |
| -
And if abortion was banned today, |
Yupster |
Aug-18-03 10:49 PM |
#176 |
| -
sure..."everyone" can afford to fly to france |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 08:19 AM |
#222 |
| -
ummm, thanks noire |
Yupster |
Aug-20-03 09:40 AM |
#230 |
| -
sorry yupster |
noiretblu |
Aug-20-03 01:41 PM |
#233 |
| -
Yes - no one sees the economies of scale. |
donco6 |
Aug-18-03 09:32 PM |
#168 |
| -
Well said, library-max |
GOPGoindown |
Aug-18-03 10:06 PM |
#170 |
| -
That's great but I'm not interested in idealistic goals until |
Blue_Chill |
Aug-18-03 10:50 PM |
#177 |
| -
More Parents Fail Their Kids Education than the Schools |
Crisco |
Aug-19-03 12:39 PM |
#199 |
| -
You make it sound |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 12:48 PM |
#202 |
| -
How Hard is It |
Crisco |
Aug-19-03 04:29 PM |
#206 |
| -
It would be a lot harder for us |
Yupster |
Aug-19-03 11:34 PM |
#212 |
| -
You make it sound |
Muddleoftheroad |
Aug-19-03 12:48 PM |
#203 |
| -
How do you fix the current system? |
library_max |
Aug-20-03 05:28 PM |
#234 |
| -
Strawman |
Nederland |
Aug-19-03 12:57 PM |
#204 |
| -
The Free Market? |
library_max |
Aug-20-03 05:36 PM |
#235 |
| -
Vouchers are a band-aid for the real problem |
U4ikLefty |
Aug-18-03 09:09 PM |
#165 |
| -
Mixed feelings.. |
Fescue4u |
Aug-19-03 04:21 PM |
#205 |
| -
To me it's a balance |
Yupster |
Aug-19-03 11:38 PM |
#213 |
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