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Reply #62: Yes, culture is a factor [View All]

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jpgray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-04-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Yes, culture is a factor
How it works, however, is something that is not easily understood. Ask a dozen people why the US is so obsessed with violence, so 'religious' and so defensive of an economic system where back in 1950, the highest-paid executive made $4.4 million in inflation-adjusted dollars and in 2001, the highest paid CEO made $706 million--you'll get a lot of different answers. There are ideas for how to fix the system, but how we fix this culture is something I don't think anyone has a clear idea of how to do. They are irretrievably tied together, but I think changing the culture is much more sure to change the system than the other way around. How you do that is beyond my capacity to guess.
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  -What economic system is closest to your ideal MiddleMen  Jun-04-04 10:48 AM   #0 
  - Participatory Economics  bryant69   Jun-04-04 10:57 AM   #1 
  - OK. Thanks.  MiddleMen   Jun-04-04 10:58 AM   #3 
  - Everyone is a manager and a worker?  theboss   Jun-04-04 10:59 AM   #4 
  - Good points to both.  MiddleMen   Jun-04-04 11:10 AM   #6 
  - drawing schematics is now management?  Alerter_   Jun-04-04 11:20 AM   #10 
  - While it's obvious that such a "pure" arrangement wouldn't work  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 11:57 AM   #23 
  - Your wrestling coach  Michael Costello   Jun-05-04 07:45 AM   #71 
  - So why do you get higher pay?  LeahMira   Jun-05-04 08:00 AM   #74 
  - It's already been practiced and works  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 11:16 AM   #7 
     - I guess it depends on hwo you apply the question  bryant69   Jun-04-04 11:38 AM   #16 
        - Please tell me how such a system would inhibit individualism  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 11:48 AM   #20 
        - But this assumes people are all the same, which they are not  jpgray   Jun-04-04 12:48 PM   #33 
           - Your argument is a strawman  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 12:59 PM   #36 
           - Work of this kind requires many, many hours of careful study  jpgray   Jun-04-04 01:12 PM   #38 
              - It's funny that you bring up the issue of free time  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 01:24 PM   #40 
                 - I didn't know I was supposed to carefully work on all your examples  jpgray   Jun-04-04 01:37 PM   #44 
                    - Where do you get this "committee determining future" from???  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 01:44 PM   #46 
                       - If Einstein's parents did not have the money, how is Al to be educated?  jpgray   Jun-04-04 01:47 PM   #48 
                          - Wow. You're really stretching now.  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 01:54 PM   #51 
                             - I've advocated nothing, I'm only asking you questions  jpgray   Jun-04-04 02:00 PM   #55 
                                - Considering Einstein's intellect...  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 02:10 PM   #57 
                                   - Okay, but damned if I don't love my Utopian metaphors  jpgray   Jun-04-04 02:35 PM   #61 
           - What was Newton's incentive?  Michael Costello   Jun-05-04 08:12 AM   #75 
        - Too individualistic? Not a problem.  htuttle   Jun-04-04 11:55 AM   #22 
        - How does capitalism help your individual autonomy?  Michael Costello   Jun-05-04 07:49 AM   #72 
  - But I thought we were an Anarcho-Syndicalist Collective?  htuttle   Jun-04-04 10:58 AM   #2 
  - I have to go with regulated capitalism.  MissMarple   Jun-04-04 11:05 AM   #5 
  - Please give your definition of socialism  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 11:19 AM   #8 
  - yeah, look at Europe, Canada, NZ  Alerter_   Jun-04-04 11:22 AM   #11 
     - Europe and Canada aren't socialist  rastignac5   Jun-04-04 11:25 AM   #12 
        - well, the US isn't capitalist then  Alerter_   Jun-04-04 11:26 AM   #13 
           - You seem to be confused about what socialism is  rastignac5   Jun-04-04 11:32 AM   #14 
              - fortunately, real economies don't fit into neat little categories  Alerter_   Jun-04-04 11:39 AM   #17 
              - Wrong.  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 11:44 AM   #18 
              - Shall we harp about how the U.S. isn't really capitalist?  cprise   Jun-04-04 11:46 AM   #19 
              - The US government also owns the means of production in many industries.  rastignac5   Jun-04-04 12:03 PM   #25 
              - You are the one who seems to be confused what socialism is  Michael Costello   Jun-05-04 07:56 AM   #73 
  - Choice #4 isn't an economic system- it's a business model  rastignac5   Jun-04-04 11:20 AM   #9 
  - That is not correct.  MiddleMen   Jun-04-04 12:00 PM   #24 
  - It's only an economic system if it becomes the norm  rastignac5   Jun-04-04 12:16 PM   #27 
     - By passing laws through my democratically elected  MiddleMen   Jun-04-04 12:22 PM   #29 
  - certainly it's an economic system  Michael Costello   Jun-05-04 07:34 AM   #70 
  - All of the above  cprise   Jun-04-04 11:36 AM   #15 
  - Your additional option essentially describes Japan  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 11:53 AM   #21 
     - Cool.  MiddleMen   Jun-04-04 12:15 PM   #26 
     - I like that about the Japanese  JCCyC   Jun-04-04 01:38 PM   #45 
  - A combination of #2 and #4.  Redleg   Jun-04-04 12:17 PM   #28 
  - Number four would turn into a nightmare  jpgray   Jun-04-04 12:22 PM   #30 
  - It certainly hasn't yet in the Mondragon cooperatives...  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 12:40 PM   #31 
  - Too small, and contained within another system  jpgray   Jun-04-04 12:55 PM   #35 
     - What we're talking about here is an evolutionary process  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 01:10 PM   #37 
        - Even pastoral nomads have people of greater and lesser ambition  jpgray   Jun-04-04 01:22 PM   #39 
           - Liu Bang rose to his station through the military  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 01:34 PM   #43 
              - Wel, if you're asking me to predict the future of human nature  jpgray   Jun-04-04 01:53 PM   #50 
                 - Where did I ever ask you to predict the future?  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 01:59 PM   #54 
                    - Much too early to tell, but I would guess it has not  jpgray   Jun-04-04 02:11 PM   #58 
                       - Of course there are risks involved  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 02:21 PM   #60 
                          - Yes, culture is a factor  jpgray   Jun-04-04 02:46 PM   #62 
                             - I just read an interesting theory on this  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 03:06 PM   #63 
                                - I think that is more or less an accurate take  jpgray   Jun-04-04 03:25 PM   #64 
  - And there's more risk of that under #4 in what way?  htuttle   Jun-04-04 12:42 PM   #32 
  - No particular way, but #4 could just turn into to a hereditary oligarchy.  jpgray   Jun-04-04 12:51 PM   #34 
     - That is discussed somewhat at the web site.  MiddleMen   Jun-04-04 01:30 PM   #41 
     - Yes--and I can't answer that theory  jpgray   Jun-04-04 01:55 PM   #53 
     - If you believe that humans aren't capable of rejecting these tendencies...  htuttle   Jun-04-04 01:32 PM   #42 
        - Well, look at what we have done with our democracy  jpgray   Jun-04-04 01:44 PM   #47 
           - That was the point I was trying to make  htuttle   Jun-04-04 01:52 PM   #49 
              - I'd take your point one step further, htuttle...  IrateCitizen   Jun-04-04 02:04 PM   #56 
  - no police, or at least rotating responsibility  Michael Costello   Jun-05-04 07:25 AM   #69 
  - My ideal - anarchy.  Feanorcurufinwe   Jun-04-04 01:54 PM   #52 
  - 2nd Choice: Capitalism with Controls  Leprechan29   Jun-04-04 02:17 PM   #59 
  - A collective commonwealth!  mrmcd   Jun-04-04 03:46 PM   #65 
  - I was totally surprised  MiddleMen   Jun-04-04 05:07 PM   #66 
  - Great thread, MiddleMen. n/t  JudiLyn   Jun-05-04 06:54 AM   #67 
  - #2  mmonk   Jun-05-04 07:11 AM   #68 

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