You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Reply #50: Chavez isn't trying to stop the elections. It's amazing that people feel [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. Chavez isn't trying to stop the elections. It's amazing that people feel
so comfortable expressing their firmly held opinions without caring for a second to look into the facts.

Do you know that the recal process is brand new, so both sides have to argue over rules never even contemplated before on how to conduct the recall.

When the gathered the signatures the first time, the rules were that people had to go to a signature collection place where there were witnesses and computer access to databases, and all sorts of nice protections like that.

Well, the opposition said, "what about sick people in hospitals?" So they argued, and they compromised: "ok, there will be walk around lists."

Well, guess what? When they sat down to count the signatures, the lists collected at the stations were fine. But the walk around lists were shockingly crappy. Pages on pages of names in the same handwriting was one of several problems. Missing ID numbers was another problem, IIRC.

So, they had to engage in another round of negotiating how to conduct a repair process, and again, they've never done this before so both sides have to argue their position.

Naturally, the government wanted to start from the position that the whole reason of having the rules in the first place was to identify fraud and not count fraudulent signatures, but they were willing to have a repair program. Naturally, the opposition wanted a repair process that was more lenient than the rule for the walk around lists (which were obviously inadequate). So they agreed to a repair process. One of the biggest problems agreeing to the rules didn't come from the gov't, it came from the opposition. The government said that if people can come in and repair their signatures, they also want people to be able to come in and take their names OFF the list (and I'm not sure if this was only for people whose names appeared on the walk around list or if it's for people who appeared on either list).

So, you see, a lot of fascists assholes go arround BS'ing that Chavez doesn't want a vote. However, the truth is a little more complicated. It's their consitution, and their recall process. They just want it to be fair. And they want to make sure the rules set a good precendent.

And, at least in the repair process, it was the oppostion who were most afraid of having the election go forward because the rules for it were so fair that they thought they weren't going to be able to repeat the fraud they perpetrated with the walk around lists the first time, and they were afraid that a lot of people were going to be able to undo fraud if their names were on the list and they shouldn't have been.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
  -Whose integrity do you respect more: Hugo Chavez or John Kerry? genius  Jun-02-04 02:55 PM   #0 
  - Good example of why your posts are helpful to Bush  Feanorcurufinwe   Jun-02-04 02:58 PM   #1 
  - Bush is on the wrong side of this issue. Kerry needs to get on the right  genius   Jun-02-04 02:59 PM   #2 
  - BS  redqueen   Jun-02-04 03:03 PM   #3 
  - exactly, we're helping Kerry triangulate  Alerter_   Jun-02-04 03:51 PM   #9 
  - hahahahahaha  redqueen   Jun-02-04 04:20 PM   #14 
  - That's not only funny, its also true n/t  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 03:52 PM   #10 
  - good example of Kerry helping oil companies and screwing the poor  Alerter_   Jun-02-04 03:38 PM   #8 
  - I'm Confused  debsianben   Jun-02-04 04:08 PM   #11 
  - Ooooooo... and the freepers will use it against us, too.  DemsUnite   Jun-02-04 04:16 PM   #12 
  - Hi.  RUMMYisFROSTED   Jun-02-04 10:46 PM   #123 
  - i`ll respect kerry when  rchsod   Jun-02-04 03:03 PM   #4 
  - There is no productive function in this poll, so I'll take a pass.  blm   Jun-02-04 03:05 PM   #5 
  - Hmm, a person who idolizes JFK or a person who idolizes Fidel Castro  Bombtrack   Jun-02-04 03:06 PM   #6 
  - Word  jayavarman   Jun-02-04 04:18 PM   #13 
  - Chavez said Kerry reminded him of JFK.  MiddleMen   Jun-02-04 04:24 PM   #15 
  - Castro thought JFK was the best president in Castro's lifetime. BTW.  AP   Jun-02-04 04:38 PM   #19 
  - A person who helps the poor or a person who helps the elite.  stickdog   Jun-02-04 04:41 PM   #22 
     - So you like the Castro model of government?  Bombtrack   Jun-02-04 04:55 PM   #27 
        - At least the part about kicking out the facists is pretty cool.  AP   Jun-02-04 05:09 PM   #39 
        - Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro Castro  Mika   Jun-02-04 05:11 PM   #42 
        - Go Castro, go Castro, go Castro, go Castro n/t  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 06:13 PM   #54 
        - Bombtrack, do tell us what the "Castro model of government" is. Thanks  Mika   Jun-02-04 06:19 PM   #60 
        - I'm still waiting, Bombtrack  Mika   Jun-02-04 08:54 PM   #82 
           - Kick for curiosity  redqueen   Jun-03-04 10:53 AM   #157 
           - And another  Vladimir   Jun-03-04 12:14 PM   #162 
              - telling,isn't it?  Forkboy   Jun-03-04 09:55 PM   #167 
           - Bombtrack - no description of the "Castro model of gov" yet?  Mika   Jun-03-04 01:30 PM   #163 
        - Like we don't have that here?  camero   Jun-02-04 07:42 PM   #76 
        - vive Fidel  tinanator   Jun-02-04 10:15 PM   #100 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jun-02-04 03:23 PM   #7 
  - Economy worse in Venezuela  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 04:31 PM   #16 
  - Staple items prices are fixed in VZ. The poor are doing better.  AP   Jun-02-04 04:40 PM   #20 
  - Yeah and millions of more people are poor  Bombtrack   Jun-02-04 05:00 PM   #30 
  - They have land, schools, and jobs NOW. I'm sure they're happier.  AP   Jun-02-04 05:03 PM   #33 
     - Yeah, which is why gas station owners are making absolute shit for  Bombtrack   Jun-02-04 05:09 PM   #40 
        - What? Gas station owners of the world unite and take over!!!  AP   Jun-02-04 05:13 PM   #43 
        - Not gas station owners, per se, but their owners.  stickdog   Jun-02-04 06:16 PM   #58 
        - And when we're done with that, can we hang the blessed (corporate) DJ's?  AntiCoup2k   Jun-02-04 07:56 PM   #80 
        - My heart bleeds n/t  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 07:08 PM   #68 
  - Lock-outs, boycotts, protests  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 05:01 PM   #31 
     - The coup was in April 2002. The strikes in 2003. First quarter '04 was up  AP   Jun-02-04 05:05 PM   #35 
     - Here  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 05:08 PM   #38 
        - Too funny. What's the y axis?  AP   Jun-02-04 05:11 PM   #41 
     - Oops. Post 26 has the 2004 numbers. Best in Latin America. Hmm.  AP   Jun-02-04 05:08 PM   #37 
  - Your analysis is full of shit.  stickdog   Jun-02-04 04:44 PM   #23 
  - How Reuters Converts ...  MiddleMen   Jun-02-04 04:50 PM   #26 
     - Wow  redqueen   Jun-02-04 05:01 PM   #32 
     - Well, no duh  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 05:03 PM   #34 
        - So you want to hold the coup year against chavez, but you don't want to  AP   Jun-02-04 05:14 PM   #44 
           - Not the point  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 05:18 PM   #47 
              - The coup was in April of 2002. The rich have done everything  AP   Jun-02-04 05:55 PM   #49 
                 - That is Bush logic  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 06:21 PM   #62 
                    - Pardon the intrusion.  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 06:23 PM   #63 
                    - And Bush tried to take VZ economy down too. But then Chavez kicked out  AP   Jun-02-04 06:27 PM   #64 
                       - Or do you hate democracy?  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 07:13 PM   #69 
                          - Read post 50. And if that's all you want, then I don't understand why you  AP   Jun-02-04 07:24 PM   #73 
                          - Objectivity  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 07:30 PM   #74 
                             - You're distancing yourself from your motivations? Now you're only  AP   Jun-02-04 07:41 PM   #75 
                             - I'm arguing against specific comments  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 08:53 PM   #81 
                                - He is quite right you know  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 08:58 PM   #84 
                                - Gore was right  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 09:25 PM   #91 
                                   - Nader voter? Hahahahahaha  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 09:29 PM   #92 
                                      - Doesn't matter  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 09:40 PM   #93 
                                         - Where do I start  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 09:43 PM   #94 
                                            - I didn't think you could  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 09:49 PM   #95 
                                            - I think 30,000 dead Iraqis would beg to differ  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 09:51 PM   #96 
                                            - You haven't  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:10 PM   #98 
                                            - Just for kicks  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:11 PM   #99 
                                            - I have little time for your politics  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 10:16 PM   #102 
                                            - Vice-versa  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:18 PM   #105 
                                            - Still do. Racists tickle my violent bone... n/t  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 10:21 PM   #107 
                                            - and I want fascists in jail  camero   Jun-02-04 11:17 PM   #137 
                                - You're just hostile to any change that upsets the status quo that ...  AP   Jun-03-04 12:14 AM   #142 
                             - Excuse me but what exactly is socialist about the same  MiddleMen   Jun-02-04 10:57 PM   #129 
                          - You mean like Sweden?  camero   Jun-02-04 07:51 PM   #79 
                             - Because democracy is working  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 08:56 PM   #83 
                                - You have to kick the fascists out first  camero   Jun-02-04 09:03 PM   #85 
                                   - Kill 'em all  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 09:18 PM   #89 
                                      - The US loves fascists  camero   Jun-02-04 10:02 PM   #97 
                                         - National Endowment for Democracy  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:17 PM   #103 
                                            - Well its an arguable point  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 10:19 PM   #106 
                                            - It's an arguable point  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:24 PM   #110 
                                               - So, it would be OK for China and Saudi Arabia to pump money  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 10:27 PM   #113 
                                                  - hehe, well they do  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:32 PM   #116 
                                                  - What if that person  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 10:35 PM   #118 
                                                  - That's not what I asked.  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 10:35 PM   #119 
                                                  - Leaping logic  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:42 PM   #121 
                                                  - It may well not justify a dictatorship  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 10:46 PM   #122 
                                                  - You sound like John Kerry  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:48 PM   #125 
                                                  - WHAT VOTES? There are no votes. This is a signature based process.  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 10:56 PM   #128 
                                                  - votes, signatures,  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 11:12 PM   #134 
                                                  - Well I certainly hope there won't be another coup  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 11:01 PM   #130 
                                                  - .  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 11:04 PM   #131 
                                                  - I hope for the best for Venezuela  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 11:17 PM   #138 
                                                  - No, no no and no. Talk about leaping logic.  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 10:48 PM   #126 
                                                  - You're making assumptions  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 11:16 PM   #135 
                                                  - I'm making assumptions? Pot meet the kettle.  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 11:25 PM   #139 
                                                  - Logic illudes you  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 11:36 PM   #140 
                                                  - Are you shittin' me? There is no logic to argue against.  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-03-04 08:23 AM   #151 
                                                  - Chavez has done a lot to concern elitists who are scared he'll  ChavezSpeakstheTruth   Jun-03-04 08:30 AM   #154 
                                                  - Great article, Smirky_W_Binladen. Tremendous.  JudiLyn   Jun-03-04 10:54 AM   #158 
                                            - Indeed.  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 10:21 PM   #108 
                                               - See 110  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:26 PM   #111 
                                                  - Whaaaaa?  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 10:31 PM   #115 
                                                     - Yes I know Ron Paul  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:35 PM   #117 
                                                     - What are Chavez's so called crimes you keep referring to?  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 10:39 PM   #120 
                                                     - How come he put himself in charge?  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 10:47 PM   #124 
                                                     - "How come he put himself in charge?" . ??????  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 10:53 PM   #127 
                                                     - Here  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 11:11 PM   #133 
                                                     - "Chvez won approval from the assembly to legislate by decree"  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 11:17 PM   #136 
                                                     - Wow  sandnsea   Jun-02-04 11:38 PM   #141 
                                                     - But you're making it seem like the opposition are a bunch of fair-minded  ChavezSpeakstheTruth   Jun-03-04 07:34 AM   #146 
                                                     - And I'm telling you congress still operates just fine.  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-03-04 08:27 AM   #152 
                                                     - Could you provide a link to an article describing how Chavez PERSONALLY  JudiLyn   Jun-03-04 11:18 AM   #159 
                                                     - This looks like a good place to remind people of the President  JudiLyn   Jun-03-04 11:24 AM   #160 
  - When the fascists in his own country took things to far, Chavez stepped up  AP   Jun-02-04 04:36 PM   #17 
  - DU is obviously populated by a bunch of middle class gringos  rastignac5   Jun-02-04 04:38 PM   #18 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jun-02-04 04:46 PM   #24 
  - You "know several native Venezuelans"?  rastignac5   Jun-02-04 04:56 PM   #28 
     - No. It's like saying I know several native Norwegians.  stickdog   Jun-02-04 06:12 PM   #51 
  - Chavez actually has quite a few allies  MiddleMen   Jun-02-04 04:46 PM   #25 
  - He does have a few allies and a few good ideas, too, but  rastignac5   Jun-02-04 04:59 PM   #29 
     - That's because we don't watch private VZ media, and we don't believe  AP   Jun-02-04 05:07 PM   #36 
  - Yeah, that's me, a middle class gringo  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 06:31 PM   #65 
  - A poll won't effect the Election.  Padme Amidala   Jun-02-04 04:40 PM   #21 
  - Is there some sort of homing device on the Venezuela threads?  Lydia Leftcoast   Jun-02-04 05:17 PM   #45 
  - I raise my eyebrow every time....  sgr2   Jun-02-04 05:17 PM   #46 
  - Ha! Thread killer! REALITY SUCKS!  NewYorkerfromMass   Jun-02-04 05:34 PM   #48 
  - Chavez isn't trying to stop the elections. It's amazing that people feel  AP   Jun-02-04 06:10 PM   #50 
  - By the way, NYfM, and sgr2, why don't you know this stuff? How do you feel  AP   Jun-02-04 06:13 PM   #52 
     - TKO!  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 06:15 PM   #56 
     - I'm going to start the count. If sgr2 or NYfM isn't off their knees and...  AP   Jun-02-04 06:18 PM   #59 
     - Word on the street from actual (real live) Venezuelans  NewYorkerfromMass   Jun-03-04 07:06 AM   #143 
        - Another word on the street from actual Venezuelans ...  Billy Burnett   Jun-03-04 07:29 AM   #145 
        - Hi, Billy Burnett! What you say sounds completely credible.  JudiLyn   Jun-03-04 07:44 AM   #147 
        - Obviously YMMV  NewYorkerfromMass   Jun-03-04 08:04 AM   #148 
        - When you have millions of anedotes on the streets protesting a coup...  AP   Jun-03-04 09:35 AM   #156 
           - Of course they protested the coup... duh!  NewYorkerfromMass   Jun-03-04 04:50 PM   #165 
              - I don't understand what point you're trying to make. You want  AP   Jun-03-04 09:53 PM   #166 
                 - Hey AP. Was there 100,000s some say 1,000,000 people  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-03-04 10:14 PM   #168 
                    - Don't bother me with your anecdotes. If I don't hear it from CNN or NPR  AP   Jun-03-04 10:53 PM   #169 
                       - Sorry, it won't happen again.  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-03-04 11:02 PM   #170 
                          - At least it's clear which side of the argument is the moronic side.  AP   Jun-03-04 11:04 PM   #171 
                             - Indeed it is.  NewYorkerfromMass   Jun-04-04 11:19 AM   #172 
                                - Psst. Yes, it's the side where the most common argument is, "I don't know  AP   Jun-04-04 11:30 AM   #173 
        - Another word on the street "Viva Chavez"  ChavezSpeakstheTruth   Jun-03-04 08:28 AM   #153 
        - Word in the morgues from real dead Venezuelans  Vladimir   Jun-03-04 08:10 AM   #150 
        - You're a fool if you believe that that's all you need to know  AP   Jun-03-04 09:32 AM   #155 
  - Yes, let the people vote for Arnold! (nt)  stickdog   Jun-02-04 06:13 PM   #53 
  - Don't miss my previous 2 posts in this thread.  AP   Jun-02-04 06:14 PM   #55 
  - He will, don't you worry  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 06:15 PM   #57 
     - Reminds me of a famous Malcolm X speech. n/t  SMIRKY_W_BINLADEN   Jun-02-04 06:21 PM   #61 
  - Chavez 72%, Kerry 28% - that says it all about DU :)  Alerter_   Jun-02-04 06:37 PM   #66 
  - Some people who don't like Kerry are probably confused and deciding it's  AP   Jun-02-04 06:40 PM   #67 
  - it's not about discrediting Kerry, it's simple solidarity  Alerter_   Jun-02-04 07:14 PM   #71 
     - What Kerry is doing is what Kennedy did, and it worked pretty well then.  AP   Jun-02-04 07:22 PM   #72 
     - Horse**** You have no admiration  blm   Jun-02-04 07:49 PM   #78 
        - no, my mind is still wide open about Kerry  Alerter_   Jun-02-04 09:08 PM   #86 
  - What are you talking about Willis....  TexasMexican   Jun-02-04 07:13 PM   #70 
  - I forget.  ContinentalOp   Jun-02-04 07:48 PM   #77 
  - Sorry but neither one.  MiddleMen   Jun-02-04 11:06 PM   #132 
  - Chavez doesn't need Kerry to "defend"  JI7   Jun-02-04 09:11 PM   #87 
  - That's about the most perceptive thing  Vladimir   Jun-02-04 09:13 PM   #88 
  - ha! good point  Alerter_   Jun-02-04 09:19 PM   #90 
  - Cool.  RUMMYisFROSTED   Jun-02-04 10:16 PM   #101 
  - anti-other poll kick.  RUMMYisFROSTED   Jun-02-04 10:17 PM   #104 
     - lol  Forkboy   Jun-02-04 10:23 PM   #109 
        - Ah, what the hell...  RUMMYisFROSTED   Jun-02-04 10:27 PM   #112 
           - Whoops.  RUMMYisFROSTED   Jun-02-04 10:31 PM   #114 
  - Communism is not a solution to fascism  Loonman   Jun-03-04 07:17 AM   #144 
  - Could you provide links to articles on Hugo Chavez's communist  JudiLyn   Jun-03-04 11:25 AM   #161 
     - Addressing poverty = communist  redqueen   Jun-03-04 01:37 PM   #164 
  - I think the REAL question is the integrity of Chavez vs his Opposition  ChavezSpeakstheTruth   Jun-03-04 08:06 AM   #149 

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (Through 2005) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC