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Reply #23: You're being completely disingenuous here [View All]

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IrateCitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-02-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
23. You're being completely disingenuous here
Edited on Wed Jun-02-04 12:29 PM by IrateCitizen
Leaving is the coward's way. Very convenient to just kill, destroy, rape, burn and torture and just leave like nothing happened. So typical and so American.

Withdrawing militarily is not the same as abandonment. It's the height of disingenuity for you to portray it as such, when countless others (myself included) have set the record straight on this issue.

US troops are an occupying power. After the way that the past year has been handled, and the torture scandal at Abu Ghraib, what leads you in your right mind to believe that the Iraqis will EVER think that US troops are there for their benefit? What is important here is not how Americans view the troops presence, but how Iraqis view it. All I can say is that the US's reputation has been damaged beyond repair in Iraq.

However, taking troops out of the country is not the same as abandoning it. Contrary to popular belief, Iraq was perhaps the most modernized country in the Middle East (outside of Israel) prior to the Gulf War, and our subsequent bombing of it for 12 years until it was placed firmly back in the stone age. But it's not like all those engineers, technicians, scientists and skilled laborers were swept out of the country. They're still there. And it's by providing funds and allowing them to do the work that the country will be rebuilt.

US troops are not preventing chaos in Iraq -- they have become the primary CAUSE of the chaos. It will not subside until they are gone.

on edit: if anyone needs proof tha al-Qaida is not in Iraq now because of the American invasion, they also need proof that men walked on the moon.

Do you commonly invoke extreme hyperbole to support your arguments? If so, I'd advise you to adopt a new strategy, because this one isn't very persuasive.

Al Qaeda is immaterial in this equation. Its very existence is the result of two phenomena: first, the natural modernization process of the Islamic world, something that is happening outside of any kind of significant Western influence; and second, the direct invervention in the Islamic world by the West (mostly the United States) for the purpose of maintaining control over petroleum reserves. If the second part of that equation were removed, then the majority of al Qaeda's activity would be directed at the sources of Arab modernization as it (al Qaeda, not modernization) gradually fizzled out.
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  -Complete withdraw from Iraq: naive thinking. malatesta1137  Jun-02-04 11:19 AM   #0 
  - I disagree 100%  Walt Starr   Jun-02-04 11:20 AM   #1 
  - More wisdom from Walt  sangh0   Jun-02-04 12:27 PM   #31 
  - I've got a great idea!  kiahzero   Jun-02-04 12:55 PM   #51 
     - Bring the troops home NOW  Walt Starr   Jun-02-04 01:34 PM   #64 
        - There's that liberal compassion  kiahzero   Jun-02-04 01:44 PM   #66 
           - We cannot win with our forces there, we will only lost more American lives  Walt Starr   Jun-02-04 01:49 PM   #68 
           - "We cannot win" - win what?  kiahzero   Jun-02-04 02:07 PM   #72 
              - The war was LOST the instant we started shelling them  Walt Starr   Jun-02-04 02:08 PM   #73 
                 - I'll ask again - Win what?  kiahzero   Jun-02-04 02:16 PM   #74 
           - We can't help them ...  lanparty   Jun-02-04 07:22 PM   #80 
  - You have two assertions to back up with evidence:  truthspeaker   Jun-02-04 11:23 AM   #2 
  - True, but leave Iraq without any kind of security force,  jpgray   Jun-02-04 11:25 AM   #3 
     - but we do not have a security force to put in there  truthspeaker   Jun-02-04 11:27 AM   #6 
     - It would have to be an Iraqi force--even local militia  jpgray   Jun-02-04 11:29 AM   #8 
     - Congo? Apples and oranges  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 12:08 PM   #25 
        - Not a direct comparison  jpgray   Jun-02-04 12:21 PM   #28 
           - OK, now I get what you're suggesting  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 12:27 PM   #30 
              - Yes--either way, we have to go  jpgray   Jun-02-04 12:34 PM   #34 
     - Wrong  libcurious   Jun-02-04 12:42 PM   #42 
     - Which would be fine.  aquart   Jun-02-04 11:34 AM   #13 
        - Yes, Iran is host to many Iraqi religious leaders as well  jpgray   Jun-02-04 11:36 AM   #14 
  - We could go in circles for days about this  rucky   Jun-02-04 11:25 AM   #4 
  - Social workers? Ridiculous.  aquart   Jun-02-04 11:26 AM   #5 
  - The Red Crescent?! A threat?!  rucky   Jun-02-04 11:29 AM   #9 
  - Sigh...  webster_green   Jun-02-04 11:28 AM   #7 
  - I also disagree 100%  bloom   Jun-02-04 11:30 AM   #10 
  - You Have No Say In Iraq's Future  Solidarity   Jun-02-04 11:32 AM   #11 
  - Well Halliburton ...  lanparty   Jun-02-04 07:28 PM   #81 
  - Yes, so that's what the television tells us. Sigh.  info being   Jun-02-04 11:32 AM   #12 
  - Don't get too discouraged  troublemaker   Jun-02-04 11:44 AM   #15 
  - The problem with your analysis in this case...  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 12:12 PM   #26 
  - Americans created this bloody mess  malatesta1137   Jun-02-04 11:45 AM   #16 
  - You're being completely disingenuous here  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 12:04 PM   #23 
  - so, you don't have any evidence that Al Qaeda is in Iraq then?  truthspeaker   Jun-02-04 12:06 PM   #24 
     - here, brainy:  malatesta1137   Jun-02-04 12:25 PM   #29 
        - ah yes, the objective MSNBC news  truthspeaker   Jun-02-04 12:29 PM   #32 
        - very naive the one  malatesta1137   Jun-02-04 12:42 PM   #41 
        - And our military presence there is to force them out how, exactly?  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 12:30 PM   #33 
        - You're just reflecting the wilfull ignorance of the mainstream media.  Minstrel Boy   Jun-02-04 12:37 PM   #36 
  -  goodhue   Jun-02-04 11:47 AM   #17 
  - Read Rashid Khalidi's book "Resurrecting Empire".  greatauntoftriplets   Jun-02-04 11:51 AM   #18 
  - #1: Halliburton out now.  H2O Man   Jun-02-04 11:52 AM   #19 
  - Some of us were adamant in signing a petition that began:  Marianne   Jun-02-04 11:57 AM   #20 
  - disagree - bring the troops home now; no huge embassy  donsu   Jun-02-04 11:58 AM   #21 
  - The exact same thing was said about Vietnam  Bandit   Jun-02-04 11:58 AM   #22 
  - Power vacuums are filled by those with the guns.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 12:39 PM   #37 
     - yeah, and the biggest gang is us  truthspeaker   Jun-02-04 12:40 PM   #38 
     - That's goddamned right.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 12:45 PM   #45 
        - I shouldn't be ashamed that my country is occuping another illegally?  truthspeaker   Jun-02-04 12:47 PM   #46 
        - You should accept it, get over yourself, and move on.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 12:53 PM   #49 
           - No, it isn't OUR situation  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 12:56 PM   #54 
              - Wanna bet?  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 01:21 PM   #60 
        - Our "gang" only creates instability to drum up protection rackets  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 12:54 PM   #50 
     - I find that a very condescending statement  Bandit   Jun-02-04 12:44 PM   #44 
        - But we're already involved, and we can't turn back time.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 12:51 PM   #48 
           - Tell me where in the Middle East that a Strongman doesn't rule?  Bandit   Jun-02-04 01:05 PM   #55 
              - Actually, there is one that is working away from a "strongman"  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 01:13 PM   #57 
              - Some despots are less enlightened than others.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 01:14 PM   #58 
              - You've forgotten a major player in all this  kiahzero   Jun-02-04 01:31 PM   #62 
  - When are you enlisting in the army?  apathy   Jun-02-04 12:16 PM   #27 
  - Absolutely. Groups in Iraq have their own ideas for Iraq's future.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 12:35 PM   #35 
  - How much did the CIA pay you to say that?  truthspeaker   Jun-02-04 12:41 PM   #40 
  - Spare us the drama about the CIA.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 12:55 PM   #53 
  - Unbelievable...  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 12:42 PM   #43 
  - Maybe just unpalatable.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 01:05 PM   #56 
     - Unpalatable is too mild. I'd say it's more like insanity.  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 01:15 PM   #59 
        - Welcome aboard.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 01:27 PM   #61 
           - That's right -- that's why it's my duty to do what I can to stop it  IrateCitizen   Jun-02-04 01:32 PM   #63 
              - What I want matters very little.  Monte Carlo   Jun-02-04 01:45 PM   #67 
  - When did you start thinking that the US was 'stabilizing' Iraq?  eridani   Jun-02-04 06:08 PM   #76 
  - Nope ..  lanparty   Jun-02-04 07:33 PM   #84 
  - This reminds me of Monday  Thankfully_in_Britain   Jun-02-04 12:41 PM   #39 
  - Naive thinking the Iraqis want us there...  JCMach1   Jun-02-04 12:50 PM   #47 
  - Whatever  RetroLounge   Jun-02-04 12:55 PM   #52 
  - I can only hope that I stay naive, far from the "realism"...  thebigidea   Jun-02-04 01:36 PM   #65 
  - and around and around we go  methinks2   Jun-02-04 01:52 PM   #69 
  - Yikes ...someone is indeed naive ...  welshTerrier2   Jun-02-04 01:53 PM   #70 
  - Catch-22  whosinpower   Jun-02-04 01:54 PM   #71 
  - Complete withdrawal from VietNam: naive thinking.  bemildred   Jun-02-04 02:26 PM   #75 
  - America will withdraw.  Karenina   Jun-02-04 06:20 PM   #77 
     - Troops Will Be Pulled Out Of Iraq  Solidarity   Jun-02-04 06:29 PM   #78 
     - It's encouraging ...  lanparty   Jun-02-04 07:37 PM   #85 
     - My own opinion, which I posted once before,  bemildred   Jun-02-04 06:51 PM   #79 
  - "Staying in Iraq: American thinking."  Saeba   Jun-02-04 07:28 PM   #82 
  - why isn't the wishes of the iraqis ever taken into account?  KG   Jun-02-04 07:33 PM   #83 

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