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Reply #134: Your question doesn't exactly make sense. [View All]

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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-11-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #122
134. Your question doesn't exactly make sense.
Who is "you" and whose hearts and minds are you winning?

The bushies haven't won any hearts and minds in Iraq or Afghanistan or anywhere in the freakin' world for that matter. They not only allowed the prison abuse to happen, but they compounded it by not apologizing for it and for trying to cover it up to the extent that a media person -- Sy Hersh, bless his little bulldog heart -- forced their hand.

The bushies would like for the whole prison abuse scandal to go away. They would like a nice distraction -- Shark Attack! Democratic senator sex scandal! -- and I wouldn't put it past them to manufacture one.

I think they'd also like to get some sympathy, meaning they want the people who are drifting away from the approval numbers to come back. They want something that will go out to the public and say, "See, we're doing something right for a change! The jobs are coming back, the environment is cleaner, and the war is going better! And don't you feel sorry for us that we can't do an better job because it really isn't our fault?"

But I don't think engineering the murder of an American businessman and pinning the blame on a group of radical Islamists -- who are known to have been the object of various warnings to the bushies in the recent past, warnings which were pointedly ignored -- is the best way to accomplish this.

Now, is it possible that the bushies are in such a sweat over the plummeting approval numbers and the prison abuse revelations that they screwed up and planned the murder without a great deal of caution and preparation? I don't think so. Is it possible that they were so sloppy in their execution (bad pun intended) that they let one of the operatives wear sneakers? C'mon, will someone please admit that sneakers as evidence of American nationality is utterly absurd? Again, I don't think they'd be this sloppy.

There's all this talk on DU about the damn orange jumpsuit Berg was wearing at the time of his murder. no one seems even to respond to the posts that a.) he was released from U.S. custody at least three days before his disappearance and therefore it is HIGHLY unlikely he was wearing the same prison jumpsuit he might have been wearing in jail and b.) the jumpsuit he was wearing in the murder video appears to be very different in fabric and construction from standarn prison-issue clothing. It's as if the conspiracy believers are just not willing to accept counter evidence.

There are even people arguing that the walls in the murder video are the same color as the walls in Abu Ghraib! As if that's evidence! Of what? That he was murdered in Abu Ghraib?? or that more than one interior in Iraq is painted yellow?

Do the bushies have anything to gain from Berg's murder? Maybe. Maybe it will stir up enough bloodlust and thirst for vengeance to push *'s approval numbers up the way 9/11 did. But there are other people out there who may just say Berg's murder is proof of the bushies' impotence in iraq, their repeated mistakes, the wrongness of the U.S. invasion and continued occupation. I don't think the bushies are stupid enough to take what appears to me to be a 50-50 risk. I think they prefer the odds to be much more in their favor.

Do I think John Negroponte would have hesitated to have Berg murdered if he thought it would do "The Cause" any good? No. I think he has not one ounce of scruples and that the only morality he knows is power. I am sickened at the thought of him in Iraq and I'm disgusted that the Dems approved his nomination. But do I think he engineered the bizarre chain of events that culminated in Nick Berg's murder? No, I don't.

Sometimes, things just happen. Sometimes someone really is in the wrong place at the wrong time -- look at all the prisoners on death row who have been exonerated when someone looked closer at the evidence, or people who are killed by random gunshots -- and as little as we want to accept that things do just happen, I think we have to understand that there are more dynamics at work in Iraq than just the bushies' greed. There really are people there who want to kill us, who want to make an example of American individuals, who are out for revenge, who have different values and traditions than we do.

Now, on the other hand, if your question addresses why would the bushies squander the post-9/11 goodwill that the U.S. enjoyed and go ahead and invade Iraq, well, I guess the only answer is that they were drunk with power and thought they could get away with it. Napoleon thought he could invade Russia in the winter. So did Enver Pasha. So did Hitler. People do dumb things. And so I suppose if we acknowledge that the bushies have done some stupid things, then we have to accept that they might do other stupid things, like carry out the kidnapping and murder of an American businessman for political purposes even though it might backfire on them.

I'm not going to argue that. We'd be getting into really speculative territory and I'm not ready to go there.

But I think it's foolish at this point to base bizarre conspiracy theories on fragile evidence and then ignore the debunking of that evidence to maintain the conspiracy theory.

I've said way too much, and no one is going to pay attention anyway.
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  -Nick Bergs killers are WHITE..... truebrit71  May-11-04 04:05 PM   #0 
  - Not all Muslims are brown  WilliamPitt   May-11-04 04:06 PM   #1 
  - You've seen the video for yourself Will....  truebrit71   May-11-04 04:07 PM   #4 
  - See post #1  WilliamPitt   May-11-04 04:07 PM   #7 
  - It's a possibility...  KissMyAsscroft   May-11-04 04:08 PM   #10 
     - Definitely not proof  Walt Starr   May-11-04 04:16 PM   #28 
     - What exactly are "white mannerisms"? n/t  dirk   May-11-04 04:17 PM   #30 
     - practicing one's golf swing without a club  Neo Progressive   May-11-04 05:23 PM   #78 
     - They're LOTS of 'em!  Karenina   May-11-04 05:43 PM   #84 
     - Look at the picture Judilyn posted  Tinoire   May-11-04 06:08 PM   #93 
        - Tinoire  dirk   May-12-04 10:04 AM   #138 
     - Is there a possibility that the "white" guys were chosen  saywhat   May-11-04 04:54 PM   #64 
  - Yep...  KissMyAsscroft   May-11-04 04:07 PM   #6 
  - That reminds me of when Malcolm X came back from Mecca  Mountainman   May-11-04 04:11 PM   #16 
  - As well as many Afghanis and Iranians.  Cleita   May-11-04 04:20 PM   #36 
  - Is There Talking In It?? (I Don't Want To Watch Thank You!)  K8-EEE   May-11-04 04:42 PM   #59 
  - They speak for awhile, actually  Castilleja   May-11-04 05:08 PM   #69 
     - I'm almost Arabic is written from right to left, and it looks very.....  TheDeb   May-12-04 02:53 PM   #147 
  - I would hazard to guess most Egyptian, Syrian  RapidCreek   May-11-04 07:40 PM   #108 
  - WillPitt, what are your thoughts about the orange jumpsuit and yellow wall  keithyboy   May-11-04 10:22 PM   #130 
     - yeah, since when did the terrorist come up with prison uniforms  okieinpain   May-12-04 01:17 PM   #144 
  - Guess what? Iraqis are white.  troublemaker   May-11-04 04:06 PM   #2 
  - Yes  oneighty   May-11-04 04:09 PM   #11 
  - I think Iraqis are Arabs  lancdem   May-11-04 04:15 PM   #25 
     - Arabs are Caucasian. n/t  QC   May-11-04 06:49 PM   #103 
     - Arabs  oneighty   May-12-04 09:55 AM   #137 
  - Thank you! Look at this picture  doni_georgia   May-11-04 05:05 PM   #68 
     - Do you have the link that goes with that story from USA TODAY?  Tinoire   May-11-04 06:25 PM   #95 
     - Here's the link  doni_georgia   May-11-04 06:33 PM   #98 
        - Thanks!  Tinoire   May-11-04 07:38 PM   #107 
     - man if that does look like a poster for the nra in west virginia.  okieinpain   May-12-04 01:18 PM   #145 
  - Many Muslims are VERY white ....  Trajan   May-11-04 04:07 PM   #3 
  - I think the poster is insinuating the killers are Americans.  cat_girl25   May-11-04 04:10 PM   #13 
     - CIA is my guess  Walt Starr   May-11-04 04:11 PM   #15 
     - Yeah because the CIA has SO much interest in beheading American  Bombtrack   May-11-04 04:13 PM   #19 
     - If it furthers Bush's agenda and gets the focus OFF the  truebrit71   May-11-04 04:22 PM   #42 
     - It's childish to believe in this narrow minded extremist point of view  Bombtrack   May-11-04 04:30 PM   #52 
     - agreed  bhunt70   May-11-04 04:52 PM   #63 
     - What's childish is to uncritically buy whatever the US media is selling.  stickdog   May-11-04 05:46 PM   #86 
     - I'm sorry but where the fuck did I say Israel had ANYTHING to do with this  truebrit71   May-11-04 06:02 PM   #90 
     - there are many,many people worldwide  Ardee   May-11-04 06:46 PM   #102 
     - Just out of curiousity, how much money do you think is currently....  Media_Lies_Daily   May-11-04 11:11 PM   #135 
     - Looking at front page of Washington Post  Mike Daniels   May-12-04 03:50 PM   #151 
     - Yep. It had to be those terraists who hate freedom and gas puppies!  stickdog   May-11-04 05:39 PM   #82 
        - Great point about the codec  RapidCreek   May-11-04 07:50 PM   #112 
        - You can download it for free at Microsoft.  QC   May-12-04 11:07 AM   #141 
        - Stickdog! Please!  Tinoire   May-11-04 08:22 PM   #115 
     - Nail...meet head!  tom_paine   May-11-04 04:14 PM   #20 
     - COINTELPRO  Walt Starr   May-11-04 04:15 PM   #24 
        - Agreed. n.t  tom_paine   May-11-04 04:22 PM   #41 
     - That is just stupid...  snooper2   May-11-04 04:46 PM   #61 
        - Sorta like a post  Walt Starr   May-11-04 09:23 PM   #126 
     - Yup..got it in one....  truebrit71   May-11-04 04:20 PM   #35 
     - The person on the far right appears to me to be a women  0007   May-11-04 08:34 PM   #117 
     - An insinuation without cause ....  Trajan   May-11-04 04:28 PM   #48 
        - The only thing it's consistent with is bad Republican screenwriting.  stickdog   May-11-04 05:50 PM   #87 
  - Could you be more specific?  tom_paine   May-11-04 04:07 PM   #5 
  - It's kind of hard to nail down...  truebrit71   May-11-04 04:14 PM   #21 
     - Interesting. I'll be watching it later.  tom_paine   May-11-04 04:21 PM   #40 
     - Respectfully, and vehemently, disagree  x-g.o.p.er   May-11-04 04:27 PM   #47 
     - It may be your intuition suggesting  Castilleja   May-11-04 05:16 PM   #74 
  - Arabs are Caucasoids, not negroids. They come from the same  Bombtrack   May-11-04 04:08 PM   #8 
  - Yep, I watched the entire thing, too  Walt Starr   May-11-04 04:08 PM   #9 
  - See Post #1  WilliamPitt   May-11-04 04:10 PM   #14 
  - Thanks for sharing that with us, Walt.  TheDeb   May-11-04 04:11 PM   #17 
     - I figure most people don't have the stomach to watch the thing  Walt Starr   May-11-04 04:12 PM   #18 
        - i made the mistake of  chimpsrsmarter   May-11-04 04:15 PM   #23 
        - Good for you.  Bog Frog   May-11-04 04:15 PM   #26 
  - You may be right  Castilleja   May-11-04 04:09 PM   #12 
  - somebody said they speak with accent.........  bolokshi   May-11-04 04:14 PM   #22 
  - Per CNN: Arabs saying it wasn't Zarqawi's voice n/t  Tinoire   May-11-04 04:21 PM   #39 
  - Are you an expert of Arabic "posture"  dirk   May-11-04 04:16 PM   #27 
  - Well, there have been lots of stories about some US  napi21   May-11-04 04:17 PM   #29 
  - Ignore the ridicule & condescension  Tinoire   May-11-04 04:17 PM   #31 
  - Thanks....i am gob-smacked at the bile being slung around here..  truebrit71   May-11-04 06:09 PM   #94 
  - Just phoned somebody who's spent years in the Middle East  TrogL   May-11-04 04:18 PM   #32 
  - It's very common. Just like terra'ists releasing gruesome blurry videos  stickdog   May-11-04 05:42 PM   #83 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   May-11-04 04:19 PM   #33 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   May-11-04 04:26 PM   #46 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   May-11-04 04:36 PM   #54 
  - you ignore legitimate questions  goodhue   May-11-04 04:30 PM   #51 
     - Possible answers --  Tansy_Gold   May-11-04 08:07 PM   #113 
        - Thank you  troublemaker   May-11-04 08:23 PM   #116 
           - You're welcome. And a follow-up to my own post  Tansy_Gold   May-11-04 08:36 PM   #118 
              - Tansy - answer this  Must_B_Free   May-11-04 09:13 PM   #122 
                 - Your question doesn't exactly make sense.  Tansy_Gold   May-11-04 11:03 PM   #134 
                 - Because  RobinA   May-12-04 03:21 PM   #150 
  - CIA?  goodhue   May-11-04 04:20 PM   #34 
  - I dunno, but it certainly could be!  Walt Starr   May-11-04 04:38 PM   #55 
  - When you combine  Lex   May-11-04 04:20 PM   #37 
  - BINGO!  Walt Starr   May-11-04 04:23 PM   #44 
  - Once was a king ...  Trajan   May-11-04 04:35 PM   #53 
  - good point, but it is equally likely  Walt Starr   May-11-04 04:39 PM   #57 
  - a satiny/shiney orange jumpsuit? looks like a robe to me.  salin   May-11-04 04:58 PM   #66 
  - ## Support Democratic Underground! ##  DU GrovelBot   May-11-04 04:20 PM   #38 
  - What are Western mannerisms as compared to Middle Eastern mannerisms?  rinsd   May-11-04 04:23 PM   #43 
  - TrueBrit- This thread is for you. Without even seeing they were "White"  Tinoire   May-11-04 04:25 PM   #45 
  - Thanks for the link...I simply cannot believe some people in this thread..  truebrit71   May-11-04 04:29 PM   #50 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   May-11-04 04:44 PM   #60 
     - Right. From the guy who wants Fox news to drum up the blood-thirst!  Tinoire   May-11-04 04:56 PM   #65 
        - Are you suggesting....  crushbush04   May-11-04 05:13 PM   #71 
           - Where were you all over the torture scandal?  Tinoire   May-11-04 05:18 PM   #76 
           - Where? It wasn't at DU.  Tinoire   May-11-04 05:28 PM   #81 
  - These criminals neednt be Zarqawi ...  Trajan   May-11-04 04:39 PM   #56 
     - We can no more conclude these were Al-Queda extremists  Walt Starr   May-11-04 04:40 PM   #58 
     - The video is called "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American"  Tinoire   May-11-04 05:03 PM   #67 
  - WHITE and FAT ....  bushgottago   May-11-04 04:29 PM   #49 
  - LOL LOL LOL  crushbush04   May-11-04 04:51 PM   #62 
     - You're not converted from squat. Why pretend?  Tinoire   May-11-04 05:13 PM   #70 
        - You really think so  crushbush04   May-11-04 05:26 PM   #80 
           - Sigh.  Tinoire   May-11-04 05:51 PM   #88 
              - It is amazing...  crushbush04   May-11-04 07:41 PM   #109 
                 - Bull-shit. You WANT Fox to run with this story. The "Why" is irrelevant  Tinoire   May-11-04 09:17 PM   #123 
                    - Progressive...  crushbush04   May-11-04 10:12 PM   #127 
  - WARNING - You REALLY don't want to watch it!!!  bushgottago   May-11-04 05:14 PM   #72 
  - i gonna give that  chimpsrsmarter   May-11-04 05:16 PM   #75 
  - I think I will third it.  Castilleja   May-11-04 05:24 PM   #79 
  - Someone wants us to hate the Arabs REAL bad . n/t  Tinoire   May-11-04 05:21 PM   #77 
  - Nice baseless accusation.  JohnLocke   May-11-04 05:45 PM   #85 
  - Oh for crying out loud John Locke- that is not what I was inferring  Tinoire   May-11-04 06:29 PM   #96 
  - Yep.  mountainvue   May-11-04 06:02 PM   #91 
  - AND make "torture" at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Camp Bucca, and all  Eloriel   May-11-04 08:16 PM   #114 
     - Oh Lo  Tinoire   May-11-04 09:19 PM   #124 
  - i black out at scary movies  meow mix   May-11-04 06:33 PM   #99 
  - Just read this thread with interest, then saw this still photo at CNN  JudiLyn   May-11-04 05:14 PM   #73 
  - It struck me as well when I saw it on CNN....  nomaco-10   May-11-04 05:55 PM   #89 
  - How about this?  knight_of_the_star   May-11-04 08:44 PM   #119 
  - Before I get slammed any more as a racial profiler..let me clarify..  truebrit71   May-11-04 06:06 PM   #92 
  - "Feel free to keep stereo-typing me"  rinsd   May-11-04 06:31 PM   #97 
  - you have admit the timing helps bush,  hippiegranny   May-11-04 06:37 PM   #100 
  - I don't see that. They look and sound very Muslim to me.  tedthebear   May-11-04 06:38 PM   #101 
  - What accent did the Arabic have?  Karenina   May-11-04 07:17 PM   #105 
  - Something I noticed about the speaker  knight_of_the_star   May-11-04 09:19 PM   #125 
  - You're damn right they're Non Muslim.....  nomaco-10   May-11-04 06:52 PM   #104 
  - Where did you view it? Thanks n/t  Tinoire   May-11-04 07:41 PM   #110 
  - Does Orange Jumpsuit match Abu Ghraib Prison?  bushgottago   May-11-04 07:35 PM   #106 
  - NO!  troublemaker   May-11-04 10:19 PM   #129 
  - I wouldn't call their mannerisms "white"I  messiertom   May-11-04 07:46 PM   #111 
  - "White" was a bad choice of words..it sure got a bunch of folks here all  truebrit71   May-11-04 08:47 PM   #121 
     - I understand  messiertom   May-11-04 11:40 PM   #136 
  - Just Wait and See  jokerman2004   May-11-04 08:46 PM   #120 
  - What exactly are "White" mannerisms? n/t  sgcase   May-11-04 10:14 PM   #128 
  - isn't it just possible their mannerisms are of someone  bhunt70   May-11-04 10:25 PM   #131 
  - As a language person, I want to know...  Lydia Leftcoast   May-11-04 10:54 PM   #132 
  - Tee-hee!!!  Karenina   May-12-04 11:04 AM   #140 
  - These guys are too fat to be our black ops guys  TroubleMan   May-11-04 10:55 PM   #133 
  - Ah but we have now outsourced all sorts of things -  Tinoire   May-12-04 03:04 PM   #149 
  - It doesn't have to have been US forces doing this  Az   May-12-04 10:04 AM   #139 
  - nice racist post  WoodrowFan   May-12-04 12:03 PM   #142 
  - These guys could be from anywhere.  Canadian_moderate   May-12-04 01:04 PM   #143 
  - Has anyone told Bush they're not "brown-skinned?"  TheWizardOfMudd   May-12-04 01:22 PM   #146 
  - Based on results.... Now who benefitted from his death?  genius   May-12-04 02:59 PM   #148 
 

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