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Reply #5: What about the OTHER points in the pledge? [View All]

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Jeebo Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Mar-24-04 02:25 PM
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5. What about the OTHER points in the pledge?
Why doesn't anybody ever mention those other points? I count six points in the pledge of allegiance (or seven if you count "with liberty and justice for all" as two points). How many of those points are clearly and demonstrably true, and how many are pure government propaganda? And apart from the church-state separation issue, is it proper for the government to be subjecting school children to this daily indoctrination campaign?

POINT 1: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America..." This is a totalitarian-state tactic. I will not "pledge allegiance" to a piece of multi-colored clotch. Neither will I genuflect before, make obeisance to it, or worship it in any other way. Isn't this idolatry?

POINT 2: "...and to the republic for which it stands..." This is one of the two points I agree with. I am a patriotic, loyal American, I do love my country and I have allegiance to it. The country is the reality; the flag is a symbol, merely a piece of cloth.

POINT 3: " nation..." This is the other point I agree with. It unquestionably is one nation, but I have some reservations even about this; see point 5.

POINT 4: "...under God..." I could talk at great length about this point, but I'll just say that these two words clearly and unquestionably ARE a violation of the principle of separation of church and state.

POINT 5: "...indivisible..." Is the United States REALLY "indivisible"? No, this issue was not settled by the Civil War. All that happened then was that the secessionist states were forced back into the Union literally at gunpoint. The issue of whether those states or any state have the right to leave the Union is a constitutional issue that can only be settled by the courts. Abraham Lincoln was terrified that the courts would address this issue and threatened to arrest some Supreme Court justices at the start of the war to prevent it. After the war, confederate president Jefferson Davis was held in a federal prison for two years awaiting trial for treason before federal officials finally dropped the charges and released him. Why didn't they prosecute him? Because they were terrified that the courts would decide that Jefferson Davis wasn't guilty of treason because he was the president of a FOREIGN country whose member states had exercised their CONSTITUTIONAL right to secede. Until the courts address this issue, the claim in the pledge that the United States is "indivisible" is pure propaganda.

POINT 6: "...with liberty and justice for all." Whether you agree with this point depends on whether you think this phrase is a promotion of the noble goal of "liberty and justice for all" or a claim that this country actually practices those lofty principles. It's clear to me that "liberty and justice" are spread around among people in this country spottily and inconsistently at best.

So, beyond the religious freedom issue, the broader issue to me is the question of whether we should be indoctrinating our school children with a daily campaign of official government propaganda.

How many of the points in the pledge do YOU agree with?


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  -Pledge poll ButterflyBlood  Mar-24-04 01:42 PM   #0 
  - Change it to "Allah akbar."  DrWeird   Mar-24-04 01:44 PM   #1 
  - Go back to the original  camero   Mar-24-04 01:47 PM   #2 
  - It was added by congressional action in 1954  rustydog   Mar-25-04 09:28 AM   #50 
  - Other  texastoast   Mar-24-04 01:49 PM   #3 
  - Good point, Tex  Rowdyboy   Mar-24-04 01:51 PM   #4 
  - This sets a precident  cheezus   Mar-24-04 03:43 PM   #9 
  - Yeah, next thing ya know it'll be on our currency!  rucky   Mar-24-04 03:56 PM   #10 
  - Yeah, its not like the Democratic party is the party of minority rights  sybylla   Mar-25-04 11:45 AM   #57 
     - Alright, but let's fight fair  texastoast   Mar-25-04 01:48 PM   #61 
  - What about the OTHER points in the pledge?  Jeebo   Mar-24-04 02:25 PM   #5 
  - Some good points...  LeahMira   Mar-24-04 02:35 PM   #6 
  - Thank you, LeahMira...  Jeebo   Mar-24-04 09:57 PM   #23 
  - Actually, the real original, as written by the minister said "with liberty  kath   Mar-24-04 03:41 PM   #8 
  - My problem with the pledge is not the words "under God"  chair094   Mar-24-04 02:44 PM   #7 
  - Ditto  Ms. Toad   Mar-24-04 09:06 PM   #13 
     - AMEN, Ms. Toad, to everything you said...  Jeebo   Mar-24-04 09:49 PM   #20 
     - Welcome to DU!  chair094   Mar-24-04 10:16 PM   #30 
  - "Under God" is the least of my problems with the pledge  Chovexani   Mar-24-04 04:05 PM   #11 
  - I don't believe in the pledge, period.  smirkymonkey   Mar-24-04 06:47 PM   #12 
  - I think "under God" should be left in...  The Rock   Mar-24-04 09:13 PM   #14 
  - i find it offensive that people dont want my goddess in the pledge  corporatewhore   Mar-24-04 10:00 PM   #25 
  - It's not silly.  The Rock   Mar-25-04 12:39 AM   #38 
  - why should your belief in God get special treatment?  truthspeaker   Mar-25-04 06:33 AM   #44 
  - I'd like to see it come out.  shimmergal   Mar-25-04 10:29 AM   #54 
  - Out  mmonk   Mar-24-04 09:16 PM   #15 
  - Take it out.  neverborn   Mar-24-04 09:18 PM   #16 
  - Just tell them you don't practice idolatry...  Jeebo   Mar-24-04 09:55 PM   #21 
  - I want the word "Creator" removed from the Declaration, I want  hansberrym   Mar-24-04 09:41 PM   #17 
  - The original Pledge of Allegiance, written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy  Feanorcurufinwe   Mar-24-04 10:12 PM   #29 
     - Deleted message  Name removed   Mar-24-04 10:19 PM   #31 
        - I've got a better idea.  Feanorcurufinwe   Mar-24-04 10:45 PM   #33 
           - An even better idea is to learn a LOT of history, that way it will be  hansberrym   Mar-24-04 11:10 PM   #34 
              - Nice to see that it is possible to occasionally punch through the bullshit  Feanorcurufinwe   Mar-24-04 11:56 PM   #36 
  - I always thought Christians objected to idolatry.  elperromagico   Mar-24-04 09:45 PM   #18 
  - Pledging allegiance to the flag isn't saying you have another  The Rock   Mar-24-04 09:56 PM   #22 
  - Self-delete  elperromagico   Mar-24-04 09:58 PM   #24 
  - What is salvation, if not a pledge of allegiance to one's god?  elperromagico   Mar-24-04 10:01 PM   #26 
  - actually, I agree with you  ButterflyBlood   Mar-25-04 12:04 AM   #37 
  - Just change "under god" to...  Aquarian_Conspirator   Mar-24-04 09:45 PM   #19 
  - What about Freedom of Speech?  Kimber Scott   Mar-24-04 10:02 PM   #27 
     - I agree.  The Rock   Mar-25-04 12:40 AM   #39 
  - I can't really answer the poll.  crunchyfrog   Mar-24-04 10:11 PM   #28 
  - I don't mind it either way...  dawn   Mar-24-04 10:23 PM   #32 
  - silly  WorstPresidentEver   Mar-24-04 11:18 PM   #35 
  - AMEN TO THAT!  The Rock   Mar-25-04 12:41 AM   #40 
  - Agreed.  Groosalugg   Mar-25-04 12:42 AM   #41 
  - Why would a fellow Christian want to take out "under God?"  Groosalugg   Mar-25-04 01:12 AM   #42 
  - because they don't want to push their religion on others?  truthspeaker   Mar-25-04 07:55 AM   #46 
  - How is saying "under God" pushing religion on others?  Groosalugg   Mar-25-04 09:15 AM   #48 
     - saying it isn't, expecting other people to say it is  truthspeaker   Mar-25-04 09:32 AM   #51 
     - i don't want god on top...  Ysabel   Mar-25-04 11:52 AM   #60 
  - so a slap in your face is a problem, but a slap in mine isn't?  Crowdance   Mar-25-04 08:10 AM   #47 
  - Agreed...  Groosalugg   Mar-25-04 09:17 AM   #49 
     - HOW IS IT SLAPPING YOUR FACE?  truthspeaker   Mar-25-04 09:33 AM   #52 
     - Common ground would be neutral ground, yes?  Crowdance   Mar-25-04 11:31 AM   #55 
  - Look at the reason it was put in in the first place  ButterflyBlood   Mar-25-04 11:44 AM   #56 
  - If they decide to take it out now  Piperay   Mar-25-04 04:49 AM   #43 
  - I agree it will hurt  Muddleoftheroad   Mar-25-04 07:37 AM   #45 
     - they should blame themselves for adding it in the first place  truthspeaker   Mar-25-04 09:34 AM   #53 
     - The Nixon appointee who wrote the 9th Circuit decision  ButterflyBlood   Mar-25-04 11:49 AM   #59 
  - i don't always know what i am...  Ysabel   Mar-25-04 11:49 AM   #58 

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