Reply #5: What about the OTHER points in the pledge?

[Jeebo]

Why doesn't anybody ever mention those other points? I count six points in the pledge of allegiance (or seven if you count "with liberty and justice for all" as two points). How many of those points are clearly and demonstrably true, and how many are pure government propaganda? And apart from the church-state separation issue, is it proper for the government to be subjecting school children to this daily indoctrination campaign?

POINT 1: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America..." This is a totalitarian-state tactic. I will not "pledge allegiance" to a piece of multi-colored clotch. Neither will I genuflect before, make obeisance to it, or worship it in any other way. Isn't this idolatry?

POINT 2: "...and to the republic for which it stands..." This is one of the two points I agree with. I am a patriotic, loyal American, I do love my country and I have allegiance to it. The country is the reality; the flag is a symbol, merely a piece of cloth.

POINT 3: "...one nation..." This is the other point I agree with. It unquestionably is one nation, but I have some reservations even about this; see point 5.

POINT 4: "...under God..." I could talk at great length about this point, but I'll just say that these two words clearly and unquestionably ARE a violation of the principle of separation of church and state.

POINT 5: "...indivisible..." Is the United States REALLY "indivisible"? No, this issue was not settled by the Civil War. All that happened then was that the secessionist states were forced back into the Union literally at gunpoint. The issue of whether those states or any state have the right to leave the Union is a constitutional issue that can only be settled by the courts. Abraham Lincoln was terrified that the courts would address this issue and threatened to arrest some Supreme Court justices at the start of the war to prevent it. After the war, confederate president Jefferson Davis was held in a federal prison for two years awaiting trial for treason before federal officials finally dropped the charges and released him. Why didn't they prosecute him? Because they were terrified that the courts would decide that Jefferson Davis wasn't guilty of treason because he was the president of a FOREIGN country whose member states had exercised their CONSTITUTIONAL right to secede. Until the courts address this issue, the claim in the pledge that the United States is "indivisible" is pure propaganda.

POINT 6: "...with liberty and justice for all." Whether you agree with this point depends on whether you think this phrase is a promotion of the noble goal of "liberty and justice for all" or a claim that this country actually practices those lofty principles. It's clear to me that "liberty and justice" are spread around among people in this country spottily and inconsistently at best.

So, beyond the religious freedom issue, the broader issue to me is the question of whether we should be indoctrinating our school children with a daily campaign of official government propaganda.

How many of the points in the pledge do YOU agree with?

Ron