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Reply #76: Fascinating -- and you could just as easily be talking about... [View All]

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Sapphocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-27-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #45
76. Fascinating -- and you could just as easily be talking about...
..."Multiple Maniacs," one of John Waters' earlier films -- and the one that rocks most Catholics (and ex-Catholics) to the core.

In particular, there's a scene in which Divine and Mink Stole perform... ah, a "sex act" involving a Rosary... inside a church. Shots of this scene (which seems to go on forever, proportionate to the viewer's sense of unease) are intercut with an equally interminable and downright gory crucifixion re-enactment.

Waters' purpose for this shock? As he writes in his book, "Shock Value," it flushed Catholicism out of his system.

If Gibson is "religiously insane," then Waters is "insanely anti-religion" -- but if descriptions of Gibson's crucifixion are accurate, the line between the two is very thin indeed.

Just for the record, and for those unfamiliar with Waters (I'm sure there must be a few who have never indulged in "Divine madness"), it should be noted that Waters is the archetypal gay man that makes the Religious Right crazy: a nonconformist who delights in twisting the "Leave It to Beaver" mentality so far that he ends up exposing the underlying perversions of "traditional" society. (Think "Blue Velvet" + "Natural Born Killers," but much darker, funnier, and far more shocking.)

Say what you like about Waters' taste (or lack of), but no one can deny that his characters are honest about their own motives. ("We kidnap young girls, have our butler impregnate them, and then sell the babies to lesbian couples" ... "Crime is beauty!" ... "Being executed is like winning the Academy Award!") Nobody ever lies, or even tries to hide their true motivations in a Waters movie. Waters' truth may make you sick, but it is his truth.

I wonder if the same can be said for Gibson?

Now I'm almost curious to see Gibson's film, just to make a few comparisons. Not curious enough to pay money to see it, mind you. I won't put money in that man's pocket.

Chookie, who's the artist who's done the S&M comparisons? Is there something I can see or read on the Web?

Great post, btw -- very thought-provoking!
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  -Has Mel Gibson completely LOST it? Sapphocrat  Jan-26-04 09:20 PM   #0 
  - Mel never had it he has always bee out there  lastknowngood   Jan-26-04 09:25 PM   #1 
  - He probably saw nothing wrong when CBS was attacked for the Reagans  SoCalDem   Jan-26-04 09:28 PM   #2 
  - Others from Hollywood  Mormegil42   Jan-26-04 10:19 PM   #10 
     - Have you forgotten...  Sapphocrat   Jan-26-04 10:35 PM   #15 
     - I wonder if those protests helped "The Last Temptation"  oldcoot   Jan-27-04 01:35 PM   #75 
     - He's a piece of antisemitic filth, that's what's different.  Jim Sagle   Jan-27-04 06:57 PM   #98 
  - I will believe he is sane until Fox  pinkpops   Jan-26-04 09:29 PM   #3 
  - True, they do...  Sapphocrat   Jan-26-04 10:38 PM   #16 
  - When he said "I love Jews, I pray for them" it was a dead giveaway to me  glarius   Jan-26-04 09:46 PM   #4 
  - Yep..I hope every Jewish man and woman who  Mari333   Jan-26-04 09:54 PM   #5 
  - Oh, yes, BUT...  Sapphocrat   Jan-26-04 10:01 PM   #6 
  - It's called having a religious belief.  san antonio   Jan-27-04 06:06 PM   #91 
  - But you should be alarmed when...  Sapphocrat   Jan-27-04 06:49 PM   #97 
  - I haven't been able to stand him since he came on either letterman or  roguevalley   Jan-27-04 08:29 PM   #108 
  - This film is causing so much controversy...  WhoCountsTheVotes   Jan-26-04 10:02 PM   #7 
  - A few years ago, I caught a short TV show (no recall which) playing a tape  mike1963   Jan-26-04 10:09 PM   #8 
  - Man Without a Face...  Sapphocrat   Jan-26-04 10:41 PM   #18 
  - Question  Mormegil42   Jan-26-04 10:14 PM   #9 
  - Openly gay-bashed...  Sapphocrat   Jan-26-04 10:25 PM   #13 
  - One of his brothers is gay.  Matilda   Jan-27-04 05:05 AM   #19 
     - As I've said before  RapidCreek   Jan-27-04 05:27 AM   #20 
        - Almost all Australians I've known have been really fun, kind people  Enraged_Ape   Jan-27-04 07:29 AM   #25 
        - But he isn't a full blooded Aussie.  foreigncorrespondent   Jan-27-04 08:12 AM   #26 
        - don't wanna get too defensive but  Djinn   Jan-27-04 05:44 PM   #88 
           - That's why I call him a 'pseudo-Aussie'...  Sapphocrat   Jan-27-04 05:59 PM   #89 
           - I can think of a few more!  Djinn   Jan-27-04 06:33 PM   #96 
           - He reminds me of someone who moves to an area and becomes an  roguevalley   Jan-27-04 08:37 PM   #110 
  - Well...  theHandpuppet   Jan-27-04 06:05 AM   #21 
  - I hate when people call it a "lifestyle"  SkeptyCal   Jan-27-04 11:14 AM   #48 
     - Thank you both, theHandpuppet & SkeptyCal!  Sapphocrat   Jan-27-04 02:53 PM   #78 
  - How many of you have seen the movie?  lib4life   Jan-26-04 10:20 PM   #11 
  - And those who have...  NWHarkness   Jan-26-04 10:23 PM   #12 
  - Check the ADL website for this into...  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 06:59 AM   #22 
     - Jesus was a Jew as were ALL the players on the scene and why aren't the  ElsewheresDaughter   Jan-27-04 07:14 AM   #24 
     - All the brouhaha is designed to put fannies in the seats.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 09:02 AM   #31 
     - i agree  ElsewheresDaughter   Jan-27-04 09:24 AM   #37 
     - I'm an Italian Jew...  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 12:52 PM   #60 
        - LOL are two of my sisters and nieces and nephews  ElsewheresDaughter   Jan-27-04 01:15 PM   #69 
        - Yourself!  JDWalley   Jan-27-04 07:16 PM   #100 
     - With all due respect, there are good reasons to think Jesus is pure myth.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 08:58 AM   #29 
     - With all due respect, there are good reasons to think Moses is pure myth  WhoCountsTheVotes   Jan-27-04 09:16 AM   #34 
     - I agree with a lot of that.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 09:18 AM   #35 
        - My Rabbi says...  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 12:57 PM   #61 
           - That is a nice distinction.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 01:20 PM   #72 
     - the writings of Josephus and the DSS's disagrees with your "myth" opinion  ElsewheresDaughter   Jan-27-04 10:44 AM   #43 
        - You probably won't be surprised to know I've encountered that before.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 10:56 AM   #44 
           - nah i do not doubt it for a NY second and DDS= Dead Sea Scrolls  ElsewheresDaughter   Jan-27-04 11:11 AM   #46 
           - Do not doubt what? "Josephus?" or that there are interpolations.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 11:13 AM   #47 
           - In all fairness...  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 07:39 PM   #103 
     - Here's a little more up to date info that I found on the Jewish ...  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 12:49 PM   #59 
        - Gibson followed the Gospels faithfully & the Gospels  Tinoire   Jan-27-04 04:33 PM   #85 
  - Some Jews who have read the script and seen the movie  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 08:53 AM   #28 
  - In which case the entire Bible and Christianity are anti-Semitic  Tinoire   Jan-27-04 09:32 AM   #38 
     - Of course he doesn't want to say that.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 09:42 AM   #39 
     - Because there is a lot of recriminatory talk  Tinoire   Jan-27-04 10:01 AM   #40 
        - But the prophets don't commit blood libel, do they?  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 10:09 AM   #41 
           - I would say they did not  Tinoire   Jan-27-04 01:06 PM   #64 
              - I would say that there is outright anti-Semitism in the NT  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 01:09 PM   #66 
                 - Is it anything worse than what is in the OT?  Tinoire   Jan-27-04 04:12 PM   #83 
                    - No doubt about it: the OT is full of cruelty.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 04:22 PM   #84 
                    - Jeremiah  Tinoire   Jan-27-04 04:48 PM   #87 
                    - While we're talking about interpolations...  JDWalley   Jan-27-04 07:19 PM   #101 
                    - Well, the Hebrew Testament speaks of ancient times...  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 08:10 PM   #105 
     - Why would you say it isn't?  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 01:04 PM   #63 
  - It hasn't been released yet, but...  JDWalley   Jan-27-04 07:14 PM   #99 
  - I think Mel should just keep quiet and just look good ...because  bleedingheart   Jan-26-04 10:31 PM   #14 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-26-04 10:38 PM   #17 
  - "The Jews?"  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 09:01 AM   #30 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-27-04 01:17 PM   #71 
     - Go ahead, speak the truth, as you see it.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 01:24 PM   #73 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Jan-27-04 07:27 PM   #102 
  - I've heard that...  jackstraw45   Jan-27-04 10:41 AM   #42 
  - i disagree...i am looking forward to seeing Mels movie  ElsewheresDaughter   Jan-27-04 07:07 AM   #23 
  - Yuck!  0007   Jan-27-04 08:19 AM   #27 
  - Mel has always been a bit out there  noonwitch   Jan-27-04 09:04 AM   #32 
  - His death is Christianity's fault, in my opinion.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 09:12 AM   #33 
  - Um - OK - that's the most theologically lax response I've ever heard  ChavezSpeakstheTruth   Jan-27-04 11:20 AM   #50 
     - Thank you!  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 11:29 AM   #51 
     - Now that's a more reasoned approach, but  ChavezSpeakstheTruth   Jan-27-04 11:36 AM   #52 
        - But it's hardly remarked that these Christians must have been  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 11:43 AM   #54 
        - The doctrine of Christianity  ChavezSpeakstheTruth   Jan-27-04 12:41 PM   #57 
           - Paul was from Tarsus, in Anatolia.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 12:47 PM   #58 
              - You are correct sir! I was wrong  ChavezSpeakstheTruth   Jan-27-04 01:07 PM   #65 
                 - Well, I agree whole-heartedly with you there!  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 01:13 PM   #68 
        - Where did you get that?  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 08:16 PM   #106 
     - not to mention historically lax as well  WhoCountsTheVotes   Jan-27-04 06:16 PM   #94 
        - Thank You  ChavezSpeakstheTruth   Jan-27-04 08:20 PM   #107 
  - You are right on.  FlaGranny   Jan-27-04 09:18 AM   #36 
  - Another thing it proved  camero   Jan-27-04 01:01 PM   #62 
  - Try the truth?  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 01:10 PM   #67 
  - Weird combination of religion and S&M  chookie   Jan-27-04 11:07 AM   #45 
  - as a kid who grew up in pre Vatican 2 days  Mari333   Jan-27-04 11:15 AM   #49 
  - Lots of room for the "sick"  chookie   Jan-27-04 11:46 AM   #55 
  - Self-flagellation...  Sapphocrat   Jan-27-04 03:10 PM   #80 
     - just anecdotally  Djinn   Jan-27-04 06:03 PM   #90 
        - Wouldn't surprise me...  Sapphocrat   Jan-27-04 06:22 PM   #95 
  - I don't get it...  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 01:16 PM   #70 
  - Fascinating -- and you could just as easily be talking about...  Sapphocrat   Jan-27-04 02:19 PM   #76 
     - About the artist  chookie   Jan-27-04 03:50 PM   #82 
        - 'Strangely compassionate'...  Sapphocrat   Jan-27-04 06:12 PM   #92 
           - I'll PM you  chookie   Jan-27-04 07:44 PM   #104 
  - a couple of years ago, Mel was in Rockland , Maine making a movie  Marianne   Jan-27-04 11:37 AM   #53 
  - In a word: yes.  JohnLocke   Jan-27-04 11:50 AM   # 
  - In a word: yes.  JohnLocke   Jan-27-04 11:50 AM   #56 
  - article on "The Passion"  slappypan   Jan-27-04 01:27 PM   #74 
  - IS it gratuitous  Djinn   Jan-27-04 06:13 PM   #93 
  - Facts  Az   Jan-27-04 02:31 PM   #77 
  - I noticed the twitching on a CNN interview  worldgonekrazy   Jan-27-04 03:10 PM   #79 
  - He has a persecution complex.  BurtWorm   Jan-27-04 03:17 PM   #81 
     - He's just a dimmer bulb  LeahMira   Jan-27-04 08:31 PM   #109 
  - That's pretty disappointing.  Hammie   Jan-27-04 04:33 PM   #86 
  - Locking  Moderator   Jan-27-04 08:40 PM   #111 

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