You are viewing an obsolete version of the DU website which is no longer supported by the Administrators. Visit The New DU.
Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login

Reply #7: This objection illustrates something important. [View All]

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU
bigmonkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-18-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. This objection illustrates something important.
There's a tug-of-war between those wanting to investigate election fraud and those who feel that it's a red herring, distracting from the "more essential" work of overcoming apathy and vote fraud. Both of those positions easily fall into accusation, and so the issue never moves. I feel that both vote fraud (the things you mention) and election fraud (manipulation of the actual voting mechanism, the gadget itself) are in play here. To split into two camps, attempting to suppress the investigation of one because it might hamper the investigation of the other, is nothing but counter-productive. Vote fraud "advocates" (no-one is actually promoting it, eh?) react emotionally when time is "wasted" on election fraud, and vice-versa.

Your entire objection is comprised by the word "facts". Those of us convinced that election fraud happened (in addition to the voter fraud you mention) are insisting that this must be investigated publicly, thoroughly. You, by using the word "facts" in the way you do, are requiring that the investigation we are proposing have already concluded in our favor; that it be factually demonstrated that election fraud occurred before you are willing to admit that it's worth investigating. We propose investigating suspects, whereas you want the case ready for arraignment.

Vote fraud, in this context, is often portrayed as something "everyone knows" occurs. But I submit that buried in the history of voting is a clear recognition that election fraud is also something "everyone knows" about. Election observers, physical ballots, ballot boxes that are hard to open, secret ballots, all of these are mechanism, just like electronic voting is mechanism.

I wish this wasn't so contentious, the contentiousness is what gets me down the most.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
  -Why can't the left face the Stolen Elections of 2004 & 2008? Algorem  Oct-18-05 02:21 PM   #0 
  - 2 reasons:  Chan790   Oct-18-05 02:32 PM   #1 
  - I think you're sincere, but I can't get behind what you say.  bigmonkey   Oct-18-05 03:20 PM   #2 
     - I have the answer  FrankLee   Oct-18-05 03:53 PM   #4 
     - Hi FrankLee!!  newyawker99   Oct-20-05 11:19 AM   #27 
     - Fair Enough  Chan790   Oct-18-05 04:43 PM   #6 
  - Denial, sense of powerlessness, need to be victims.  cassiepriam   Oct-18-05 03:30 PM   #3 
  - You are trying to teach powerlessness. For sure there was some  applegrove   Oct-18-05 04:19 PM   #5 
  - This objection illustrates something important.  bigmonkey   Oct-18-05 04:47 PM   #7 
  - I agree it is contentious. And I am glad we are airing this long before  applegrove   Oct-18-05 05:13 PM   #8 
     - The only way to get people to have faith in our election system and vote  glitch   Oct-19-05 12:25 PM   #20 
     - Just some comments.  bigmonkey   Oct-19-05 12:38 PM   #22 
        - I am not treating you like a paranoid - I am saying that some moderates  applegrove   Oct-19-05 04:00 PM   #24 
  - There are no facts about the election results, just guesses  eridani   Oct-20-05 06:13 AM   #26 
  - The Left Does Face Up To It  callady   Oct-18-05 08:41 PM   #9 
  - If they try to steal elections in my town, their kneecaps might get broke.  struggle4progress   Oct-18-05 11:11 PM   #10 
  - We have Gerrymandering up the ass,  Ferret Mike   Oct-19-05 03:27 AM   #11 
  - Evidence?  Boo_Radley   Oct-19-05 08:06 AM   #12 
  - some pretty good evidence here  CalmMan   Oct-19-05 08:41 AM   #14 
  - Thanks.  Boo_Radley   Oct-19-05 09:42 AM   #15 
  - Welcome to DU. You can also check out the Election Forum  Raster   Oct-19-05 11:01 AM   #17 
  - Hi CalmMan!!  newyawker99   Oct-20-05 11:20 AM   #28 
  - There was a helluva lot more to it!  Raster   Oct-19-05 10:59 AM   #16 
  - Dems are pathetic.  CalmMan   Oct-19-05 08:38 AM   #13 
  - Wake up.  reprehensor   Oct-19-05 12:18 PM   #18 
  - Because Kerry should have made a stink about it when it was a hot  Catfight   Oct-19-05 12:24 PM   #19 
  - More info.  reprehensor   Oct-19-05 12:34 PM   #21 
  - 2008? They're already predicting that an election that hasnt happened yet  EOO   Oct-19-05 02:01 PM   #23 
     - The dynamics are in place  depakid   Oct-20-05 05:48 AM   #25 

Home » Discuss » Editorials & Other Articles Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators

Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC