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Reply #77: But at what over all cost? [View All]

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 04:04 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. But at what over all cost?
Remember most people are honest, thus looking over their records and doing an investigation is a complete waste of money. The problem is we do NOT know who is honest and who is not, thus any system of controls must include BOTH. My example does show if you spent the money you would stop the fraud for months afterward, BUT ONLY IF THERE WAS FRAUD. In 99 out of 100 cases NO FRAUD WILL BE FOUND. Even if we assume one case of fraud out of ten, It would take over TEN MONTHS of NOT have to pay the person who committed fraud to over come the cost to investigate all ten people. 100 months (8 years 4 months) to over come the cost if the fraud is only one in 100. AS you can see the price is just to high.

The problem is Welfare, while not paying the high price for controls as my example illustrates, to prevent fraud, is paying much more then what a private party would spend. The reason for this is a private party would look at the numbers and cut off the controls once the cost of the controls equals the actual loss being incurred but Welfare demands a higher level of catching Fraud (Mostly to avoid embarrassment when such fraud is found, then any real effort to avoid fraud).

My example were to show the cost to catch ONE person defrauding the Welfare system, not that such cost must be imposed on both people who are NOT committing Fraud and whose who are defrauding the system.

A good example of this was the Ford Pinto. Ford determined that the cost of lawsuits do to people being burned whenever a Pinto was hit in the rear, was less then the cost of replacing a $2 part with a $3 part on the assembly line. Ford took a lot of heat for that decision when it came out in the litigation involving Pintos burning, but Ford determined the millions they paid to each burned victim was still cheaper then replacing the $2 part with the $3 part (Ford was also the last Car maker to remove the Gas tank from behind the seat in Pickup trucks, for the same reason, Ford saw the move as costing more money then what Ford would pay to burn victims).

Now, for that decision Ford took a lot of heat, as did the Federal Government. The Federal Government finally ORDERED that all new trucks would NOT have the gas tank behind the seat, and Ford complied (And the Federal Government Ordered any new Pinto be built with the $3 part not the $2 Part). The reason the Federal Government acted was simple, the Government responded to complaints of the people, even if the response would cost more money then any potential savings.

My point for bring up the Pinto and the Ford Pickup, is they show how the money works in such situations. The biggest cost is NOT where the Fraud is found (you have a huge savings in such cases, the $3 part in a Pinto hit in the rear would have saved Ford Millions) but is cases where no fraud is found (i.e. the Millions of Pinto sold that were NEVER hit in the rear, or hit did not explode). The same with Welfare, the savings is NOT in the one case where Fraud is found, but in the hundreds (maybe thousands, if not million) of cases where no fraud is found. The cost of the Controls is the same if fraud is found or not, the saving only occur when fraud is found. The problem is most people are NOT trying to defraud the welfare system, thus the real savings is in cutting back on the paper work welfare recipients have to fill out, not is finding fraud.

Side Note: Both the Pinto and the Pickup was done under Henry Ford II, the grandson of Henry Ford. Henry Ford II was NOT as imaginative as his grandfather nor as concern about the buyers of his cars. The present Generation seems to be more like Henry Ford I then Henry Ford II.
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  -State: Mom who shot kids, self denied food stamps James48  Dec-07-11 05:38 AM   #0 
  - It is possible that this woman couldn't read the application.  Stuart G   Dec-07-11 06:17 AM   #1 
  - and now.. they must also be drug tested to prove they are "Worthy".  lib2DaBone   Dec-07-11 07:06 AM   #7 
  - In Texas?  They_Live   Dec-07-11 09:26 AM   #26 
  - Drug Testing being proposed by  LiberalTexasDemocrat   Dec-07-11 11:51 AM   #57 
     - Behave or your children can starve. nt.  caseymoz   Dec-07-11 12:14 PM   #63 
     - I see.  They_Live   Dec-07-11 12:40 PM   #68 
     - Are they going to test just the applicant, or the whole family?  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 03:23 PM   #74 
  - Drug Tested  liberalmike27   Dec-07-11 10:10 AM   #36 
  - 18-page application?  harvey007   Dec-07-11 11:21 AM   #50 
  - WTF?  MadrasT   Dec-07-11 12:11 PM   #60 
  - The system is horribly broken.  The Doctor.   Dec-07-11 06:28 AM   #2 
  - is how the right wing media spins it..  Stuart G   Dec-07-11 06:30 AM   #3 
     - Is there no one to help fill it out?  treestar   Dec-07-11 08:31 AM   #14 
     - I Know Nothing  RobinA   Dec-07-11 11:57 AM   #58 
     - Yes, that stuff can be a pain to get  treestar   Dec-07-11 04:48 PM   #81 
     - The Right Wing media spins on lies  Rozlee   Dec-07-11 09:11 AM   #21 
     - Here's the Thing  liberalmike27   Dec-07-11 10:12 AM   #37 
  - Here is what probably happened.  Stuart G   Dec-07-11 06:41 AM   #4 
  - An interesting quote in the OP.  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 08:50 AM   #18 
  - No, later in the article it states clearly that her application was rejected.  Gormy Cuss   Dec-07-11 09:56 AM   #31 
  - She would have just bought lobster and champaign ...  Fantastic Anarchist   Dec-07-11 05:44 PM   #83 
  - Have you ever been in severe distress? It can be very hard to get your act together when you are,  No Elephants   Dec-07-11 06:50 AM   #5 
  - Texas HHS are a bunch of horses asses. About the only way  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 07:39 AM   #9 
  - Tragic- I hope those kids pull through.  Luciferous   Dec-07-11 06:59 AM   #6 
  - I have mixed feelings on that....  femrap   Dec-07-11 09:53 AM   #30 
     - Foster care  rethymnon   Dec-07-11 11:32 AM   #54 
        - As Someone  RobinA   Dec-07-11 12:13 PM   #62 
        - foster care alternative is equally horrendous  rethymnon   Dec-07-11 01:10 PM   #71 
           - There Are Great  RobinA   Dec-08-11 07:38 AM   #93 
        - Think about it...we can't fund the foodless  iamhuman   Dec-07-11 12:57 PM   #70 
        - Fuck off, nudnik ...  Fantastic Anarchist   Dec-07-11 05:48 PM   #85 
        - You don't know anything  femrap   Dec-07-11 10:17 PM   #89 
  - Poverty induces despair on a level incomprensible to those who haven't suffered through it  Orrex   Dec-07-11 07:26 AM   #8 
  - Gingrich fat head's answer yes.  lonestarnot   Dec-07-11 07:42 AM   #10 
  - That was the point of denying her they say so over and over on the radio.  kickysnana   Dec-07-11 07:45 AM   #11 
  - Thousands of people are denied food stamps...  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 08:04 AM   #12 
  - She probably got to see someone because the children  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 08:17 AM   #13 
  - Even if she had mental problems, that's still the system's fault  AZ Progressive   Dec-07-11 12:11 PM   #61 
  - ...and thousands of Texans ate too much for dinner that night and wished they hadn't.  RadiationTherapy   Dec-07-11 08:33 AM   #15 
  - ..and thousands of Texans ate too much for dinner that night and wished they hadn't.  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 09:18 AM   #23 
     - No, I mean we lack consciousness in consumption which has resulted  RadiationTherapy   Dec-07-11 09:49 AM   #29 
        - we lack consciousness in consumption ....  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 10:03 AM   #32 
  - This is why Texas don't like gun control  marias23   Dec-07-11 08:46 AM   #16 
  - But the only legal euthanasia is the death penalty  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 09:42 AM   #28 
  - These programs are labyrinthine. I've had my own problems, albeit less tragic.  Akoto   Dec-07-11 08:49 AM   #17 
  - Akoto, thank you for giving us that perspective on how some of these programs  bertman   Dec-07-11 09:09 AM   #20 
     - If they're going to add investigations for fraud, fine, but ...  Akoto   Dec-07-11 09:19 AM   #24 
     - I don't know the facts of but one disability claim but it was the result of some  bertman   Dec-07-11 10:29 AM   #39 
        - For disability in Texas You need a diagnosis from your  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 10:53 AM   #43 
     - Those systems to look for Fraud has ALWAYS existed  happyslug   Dec-07-11 12:38 PM   #67 
        - But you have neglected to mention the cumulative effect of not going after the fraud percentage.  PavePusher   Dec-07-11 03:11 PM   #73 
           - But at what over all cost?  happyslug   Dec-07-11 04:04 PM   #77 
              - "at what overall cost"?  PavePusher   Dec-07-11 06:58 PM   #87 
                 - Yes, I did, but obvisly did NOT understand what I was talking about  happyslug   Dec-07-11 08:57 PM   #88 
                    - Happyslug, your calculations are so far off it's pathetic.  bertman   Dec-07-11 10:50 PM   #90 
                       - 30 fraud cases a year? Not in my experience and I DEAL WITH WELFARE FRAUD  happyslug   Dec-07-11 11:51 PM   #91 
  - Newt Gingrich will probably find a way to blame this on Obama/Democrats.  yellowcanine   Dec-07-11 09:08 AM   #19 
  - only way you get change is to vote Republican."  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 10:06 AM   #33 
  - Churches don't reach out to people with these problems? No one refers??  patrice   Dec-07-11 09:13 AM   #22 
  - You're assuming that churches are, overall, that effective.  caseymoz   Dec-07-11 09:29 AM   #27 
  - Churches don't reach out to people with these problems?  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 10:09 AM   #35 
  - Tea partiers should be asked this question:  caseymoz   Dec-07-11 09:21 AM   #25 
  - I cannot believe the justifications I am seeing on this thread  adamuu   Dec-07-11 10:07 AM   #34 
  - I knew that sort of thing would be posted here in abundance when I read the subject line  slackmaster   Dec-07-11 11:04 AM   #47 
  - This is what  lsewpershad   Dec-07-11 10:25 AM   #38 
  - They will solve the problem  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 10:37 AM   #41 
  - The Banksters didn't need to...  JJW   Dec-07-11 10:35 AM   #40 
  - She was able to shoot her own children? Im sorry but  FreedomVoice   Dec-07-11 10:49 AM   #42 
  - You are absolutely right.  Hyper_Eye   Dec-07-11 12:42 PM   #69 
  - Read the article. She was not truly denied food stamps.  ieoeja   Dec-07-11 10:53 AM   #44 
  - It's considered bad form on DU to take an unbiased, objective view of news stories  slackmaster   Dec-07-11 11:09 AM   #48 
  - How did she know she was rejected?  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 11:16 AM   #49 
  - They Sent  RobinA   Dec-07-11 12:22 PM   #66 
  - Seems to be mental illness involved.  godai   Dec-07-11 11:23 AM   #51 
  - Facts don't fit the story many want to believe  Democat   Dec-07-11 11:24 AM   #52 
  - I do this everyday  Puzzledtraveller   Dec-07-11 11:29 AM   #53 
  - Please do not post facts. It gets in the way of the outrage.  Synicus Maximus   Dec-07-11 11:36 AM   #55 
  - Thank you, I am glad that the timeline was simplified by you to show  FreedomVoice   Dec-07-11 11:41 AM   #56 
  - Geez, I'm a Social Worker  RobinA   Dec-07-11 12:20 PM   #65 
  - Perhaps her car was too new.  bengalherder   Dec-07-11 10:58 AM   #45 
  - this is unutterably sad - no words (n/t)  bread_and_roses   Dec-07-11 11:01 AM   #46 
  - She could have acquired a load of AK-47s easier than getting  demosincebirth   Dec-07-11 12:08 PM   #59 
  - I think this story just shows how cruel the system is  AZ Progressive   Dec-07-11 12:18 PM   #64 
  - System, cruel?!?! She didn't follow through on her part of the process.  PavePusher   Dec-07-11 03:05 PM   #72 
     - Face it. If you are not ready to kill, you are not deserving.  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 03:38 PM   #75 
     - Exactly and because this is my work  Puzzledtraveller   Dec-08-11 08:13 AM   #94 
  - Ahh... just what I expected: apologists for an insane (near) murderer.  harmonicon   Dec-07-11 03:53 PM   #76 
  - +1000  WildEyedLiberal   Dec-07-11 05:45 PM   #84 
  - We can't pay for food stamps  SixthSense   Dec-07-11 04:18 PM   #78 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-07-11 04:34 PM   #79 
  - It's a sexist and classist double standard. If a poor man had done the shooting, he'd be blamed.  slackmaster   Dec-07-11 05:54 PM   #86 
  - Blame Republicans?  pettypace   Dec-07-11 04:40 PM   #80 
  - There's some stuff being left out of this story.  Occupy_2012   Dec-07-11 05:28 PM   #82 
     - If the government of the United States..a "so called ..great country"  Stuart G   Dec-08-11 06:41 AM   #92 

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