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Reply #67: Those systems to look for Fraud has ALWAYS existed [View All]

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-07-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #20
67. Those systems to look for Fraud has ALWAYS existed
The problem with Welfare has NEVER been widespread fraud. In fact the number cause of Waste to prevent Fraud in Welfare are the controls to prevent fraud.

When I went to what we in Pittsburgh call "Accounting U" (Robert Morris Collage, Now Robert Morris University) the number one rule we were taught was the controls to prevent fraud MUST never exceed the cost of the actual fraud i.e. no $10 locks on 50 cent items (it is more COST EFFECTIVE to permit people to steal the 50 cent item then to buy and install the $10 lock, thus permit then to STEAL, it is Cheaper).

Welfare is notorious for violating this rule, mostly do to political consideration (i.e. it is harder to say, "so someone stole 50 cents, we still AHEAD $9.50 do to the saving do to NOT buying a Lock" then to say, "I will BUY a lock "(Without mentioning the price) to make sure no one steals the 50 cent item.

Median Income is only $42,000 a year, if we assume a typical investigator earns 1/2 of that, or $21,000 a year (Or $10.50 per hour) if that investigator spends more then 8 hours investigating a Welfare recipient, that is at least $84.00. If it is a two day investigation, that comes to $168. In my home county of Cambria County Pennsylvania, pays only $174 a month, thus any investigation that takes more then 2 days of regular time (no overtime) you are already spent more money then the State lost do to any fraud.

I have represented client accused of cheating the Welfare system (Through NOT in Criminal trials) but in cases where Welfare thought someone was over paid. We ended up in a hearing with a Judge (Paid over $50,000 a year), a Welfare Case worker, the Caseworker Supervisor and an "investifator". At a minimum we are looking at 4 people earning at least $10.50, or $42 a hour. If we assume one hour to prepare for the trial, one hour for the trial, we are looking at $82. If the trial is actually longer, you quickly start to exceed $174 a month welfare payments after about two hours. This is NOT including the actual investigation.

What Welfare does do is compare any client's Social Security Number with various data banks, including, but not limited to Unemployment, Banks (To look at bank accounts), Criminal, Social Security, IRS, the Department of Transportation to look at what autos the claimant has, in addition to what ever places the Claimant reports on her or his paperwork. This is all computer based and has been for decades, thus takes a quick search. Reports from Welfare workers have indicated it is very rare for them to find something that is NOT also reported to them.

Fraud on the Welfare system is rare, more reported in the Media then it occurs in real life (Reagan's "Welfare Queen" was a person who managed to cheat the system for six months, but the system did work and she was caught, and that was in the 1970s before MOST items we can get on the net today could be obtain via computer). In fact, if I remember right, an investigation was made of one of the Claims of the Welfare Queen, but found nothing, what tripped her up was her SS # being used on all of the cases. That SS# is what lead to her being found out and then brought up on Criminal Charges, NOT the investigation of possible Welfare Fraud by an investigator

Welfare also maintains a "Hotline" to report Welfare Fraud, but most of the accusation tend to be false (And many report Fraud to be vindictive to someone, NOT to report actual fraud).

I am sorry, your call for a "Through investigation" of welfare recipients shows either a failure to understand that such investigation occur today and has always occurred OR you have internalized the right wing lies that Welfare cost so much do to Fraud, not that about 10% of the population needs welfare even in Good Times. To response to these Right Wing fanatics, Welfare has adopted so many rules that make no financial sense (for example, people on Welfare MUST do a monthly reporting on their income, even if it was the same as the month before i.e. welfare). Remember's Hitler favorite line, repeat a lie often enough, people start to believe it is true. The reports of Welfare Fraud is the same, old stories are repeated over and over again till people think they are the norm not the exception.

I always joke, the Federal Law as to "Forgiveness" of an over-payment (You do NOT have to pay the over-payment back) can be done in cases of non-payment of Taxes (hard but possible), Social Security, Student loans (Hard but not impossible, through harder then getting an IRS forgiveness) but no forgiveness is permitted, by law, as to any Food Stamp or Welfare over-payment. Congress has always been more worried about someone getting $10 to much in Welfare then someone not paying $1 million dollars in Taxes.

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  -State: Mom who shot kids, self denied food stamps James48  Dec-07-11 05:38 AM   #0 
  - It is possible that this woman couldn't read the application.  Stuart G   Dec-07-11 06:17 AM   #1 
  - and now.. they must also be drug tested to prove they are "Worthy".  lib2DaBone   Dec-07-11 07:06 AM   #7 
  - In Texas?  They_Live   Dec-07-11 09:26 AM   #26 
  - Drug Testing being proposed by  LiberalTexasDemocrat   Dec-07-11 11:51 AM   #57 
     - Behave or your children can starve. nt.  caseymoz   Dec-07-11 12:14 PM   #63 
     - I see.  They_Live   Dec-07-11 12:40 PM   #68 
     - Are they going to test just the applicant, or the whole family?  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 03:23 PM   #74 
  - Drug Tested  liberalmike27   Dec-07-11 10:10 AM   #36 
  - 18-page application?  harvey007   Dec-07-11 11:21 AM   #50 
  - WTF?  MadrasT   Dec-07-11 12:11 PM   #60 
  - The system is horribly broken.  The Doctor.   Dec-07-11 06:28 AM   #2 
  - is how the right wing media spins it..  Stuart G   Dec-07-11 06:30 AM   #3 
     - Is there no one to help fill it out?  treestar   Dec-07-11 08:31 AM   #14 
     - I Know Nothing  RobinA   Dec-07-11 11:57 AM   #58 
     - Yes, that stuff can be a pain to get  treestar   Dec-07-11 04:48 PM   #81 
     - The Right Wing media spins on lies  Rozlee   Dec-07-11 09:11 AM   #21 
     - Here's the Thing  liberalmike27   Dec-07-11 10:12 AM   #37 
  - Here is what probably happened.  Stuart G   Dec-07-11 06:41 AM   #4 
  - An interesting quote in the OP.  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 08:50 AM   #18 
  - No, later in the article it states clearly that her application was rejected.  Gormy Cuss   Dec-07-11 09:56 AM   #31 
  - She would have just bought lobster and champaign ...  Fantastic Anarchist   Dec-07-11 05:44 PM   #83 
  - Have you ever been in severe distress? It can be very hard to get your act together when you are,  No Elephants   Dec-07-11 06:50 AM   #5 
  - Texas HHS are a bunch of horses asses. About the only way  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 07:39 AM   #9 
  - Tragic- I hope those kids pull through.  Luciferous   Dec-07-11 06:59 AM   #6 
  - I have mixed feelings on that....  femrap   Dec-07-11 09:53 AM   #30 
     - Foster care  rethymnon   Dec-07-11 11:32 AM   #54 
        - As Someone  RobinA   Dec-07-11 12:13 PM   #62 
        - foster care alternative is equally horrendous  rethymnon   Dec-07-11 01:10 PM   #71 
           - There Are Great  RobinA   Dec-08-11 07:38 AM   #93 
        - Think about it...we can't fund the foodless  iamhuman   Dec-07-11 12:57 PM   #70 
        - Fuck off, nudnik ...  Fantastic Anarchist   Dec-07-11 05:48 PM   #85 
        - You don't know anything  femrap   Dec-07-11 10:17 PM   #89 
  - Poverty induces despair on a level incomprensible to those who haven't suffered through it  Orrex   Dec-07-11 07:26 AM   #8 
  - Gingrich fat head's answer yes.  lonestarnot   Dec-07-11 07:42 AM   #10 
  - That was the point of denying her they say so over and over on the radio.  kickysnana   Dec-07-11 07:45 AM   #11 
  - Thousands of people are denied food stamps...  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 08:04 AM   #12 
  - She probably got to see someone because the children  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 08:17 AM   #13 
  - Even if she had mental problems, that's still the system's fault  AZ Progressive   Dec-07-11 12:11 PM   #61 
  - ...and thousands of Texans ate too much for dinner that night and wished they hadn't.  RadiationTherapy   Dec-07-11 08:33 AM   #15 
  - ..and thousands of Texans ate too much for dinner that night and wished they hadn't.  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 09:18 AM   #23 
     - No, I mean we lack consciousness in consumption which has resulted  RadiationTherapy   Dec-07-11 09:49 AM   #29 
        - we lack consciousness in consumption ....  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 10:03 AM   #32 
  - This is why Texas don't like gun control  marias23   Dec-07-11 08:46 AM   #16 
  - But the only legal euthanasia is the death penalty  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 09:42 AM   #28 
  - These programs are labyrinthine. I've had my own problems, albeit less tragic.  Akoto   Dec-07-11 08:49 AM   #17 
  - Akoto, thank you for giving us that perspective on how some of these programs  bertman   Dec-07-11 09:09 AM   #20 
     - If they're going to add investigations for fraud, fine, but ...  Akoto   Dec-07-11 09:19 AM   #24 
     - I don't know the facts of but one disability claim but it was the result of some  bertman   Dec-07-11 10:29 AM   #39 
        - For disability in Texas You need a diagnosis from your  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 10:53 AM   #43 
     - Those systems to look for Fraud has ALWAYS existed  happyslug   Dec-07-11 12:38 PM   #67 
        - But you have neglected to mention the cumulative effect of not going after the fraud percentage.  PavePusher   Dec-07-11 03:11 PM   #73 
           - But at what over all cost?  happyslug   Dec-07-11 04:04 PM   #77 
              - "at what overall cost"?  PavePusher   Dec-07-11 06:58 PM   #87 
                 - Yes, I did, but obvisly did NOT understand what I was talking about  happyslug   Dec-07-11 08:57 PM   #88 
                    - Happyslug, your calculations are so far off it's pathetic.  bertman   Dec-07-11 10:50 PM   #90 
                       - 30 fraud cases a year? Not in my experience and I DEAL WITH WELFARE FRAUD  happyslug   Dec-07-11 11:51 PM   #91 
  - Newt Gingrich will probably find a way to blame this on Obama/Democrats.  yellowcanine   Dec-07-11 09:08 AM   #19 
  - only way you get change is to vote Republican."  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 10:06 AM   #33 
  - Churches don't reach out to people with these problems? No one refers??  patrice   Dec-07-11 09:13 AM   #22 
  - You're assuming that churches are, overall, that effective.  caseymoz   Dec-07-11 09:29 AM   #27 
  - Churches don't reach out to people with these problems?  AlbertCat   Dec-07-11 10:09 AM   #35 
  - Tea partiers should be asked this question:  caseymoz   Dec-07-11 09:21 AM   #25 
  - I cannot believe the justifications I am seeing on this thread  adamuu   Dec-07-11 10:07 AM   #34 
  - I knew that sort of thing would be posted here in abundance when I read the subject line  slackmaster   Dec-07-11 11:04 AM   #47 
  - This is what  lsewpershad   Dec-07-11 10:25 AM   #38 
  - They will solve the problem  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 10:37 AM   #41 
  - The Banksters didn't need to...  JJW   Dec-07-11 10:35 AM   #40 
  - She was able to shoot her own children? Im sorry but  FreedomVoice   Dec-07-11 10:49 AM   #42 
  - You are absolutely right.  Hyper_Eye   Dec-07-11 12:42 PM   #69 
  - Read the article. She was not truly denied food stamps.  ieoeja   Dec-07-11 10:53 AM   #44 
  - It's considered bad form on DU to take an unbiased, objective view of news stories  slackmaster   Dec-07-11 11:09 AM   #48 
  - How did she know she was rejected?  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 11:16 AM   #49 
  - They Sent  RobinA   Dec-07-11 12:22 PM   #66 
  - Seems to be mental illness involved.  godai   Dec-07-11 11:23 AM   #51 
  - Facts don't fit the story many want to believe  Democat   Dec-07-11 11:24 AM   #52 
  - I do this everyday  Puzzledtraveller   Dec-07-11 11:29 AM   #53 
  - Please do not post facts. It gets in the way of the outrage.  Synicus Maximus   Dec-07-11 11:36 AM   #55 
  - Thank you, I am glad that the timeline was simplified by you to show  FreedomVoice   Dec-07-11 11:41 AM   #56 
  - Geez, I'm a Social Worker  RobinA   Dec-07-11 12:20 PM   #65 
  - Perhaps her car was too new.  bengalherder   Dec-07-11 10:58 AM   #45 
  - this is unutterably sad - no words (n/t)  bread_and_roses   Dec-07-11 11:01 AM   #46 
  - She could have acquired a load of AK-47s easier than getting  demosincebirth   Dec-07-11 12:08 PM   #59 
  - I think this story just shows how cruel the system is  AZ Progressive   Dec-07-11 12:18 PM   #64 
  - System, cruel?!?! She didn't follow through on her part of the process.  PavePusher   Dec-07-11 03:05 PM   #72 
     - Face it. If you are not ready to kill, you are not deserving.  Downwinder   Dec-07-11 03:38 PM   #75 
     - Exactly and because this is my work  Puzzledtraveller   Dec-08-11 08:13 AM   #94 
  - Ahh... just what I expected: apologists for an insane (near) murderer.  harmonicon   Dec-07-11 03:53 PM   #76 
  - +1000  WildEyedLiberal   Dec-07-11 05:45 PM   #84 
  - We can't pay for food stamps  SixthSense   Dec-07-11 04:18 PM   #78 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-07-11 04:34 PM   #79 
  - It's a sexist and classist double standard. If a poor man had done the shooting, he'd be blamed.  slackmaster   Dec-07-11 05:54 PM   #86 
  - Blame Republicans?  pettypace   Dec-07-11 04:40 PM   #80 
  - There's some stuff being left out of this story.  Occupy_2012   Dec-07-11 05:28 PM   #82 
     - If the government of the United States..a "so called ..great country"  Stuart G   Dec-08-11 06:41 AM   #92 

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