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Reply #34: If we could follow the money trail, we'd know what motivates this. I'm not talking about donors. [View All]

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freshwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-01-11 11:56 AM
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34. If we could follow the money trail, we'd know what motivates this. I'm not talking about donors.
The USA and Israeli along with many 'western' nations are into arms and propping up first and second wave economic systems. Or there may be some banking connection, some elite family connections, but it doesn't matter. It's been a part of American foreign policy for almost as long as Israel was granted nationhood by the British, etc. it's a fact of political life, it's just there.

I don't believe the Founders would have agreed with the alliance for the reasons presented for the problems between the Israelis and the Palestinians. They rejected getting involved in the old world's millennial blood feuds which we really don't have a stake in. We cannot win, and neither side respects our system. But if what some allege is true, they are both our pawns, not the other way around.

There has been a concerted effort by the religious right to tie America's survival to the modern state of Israel as it currently exists, claiming it has a divine root that cannot be disputed. Those who believe this hope that Americans showing unquestioning allegiance will give Americans immunity from the coming wrath that they preach every Sunday. These fanatics dream of a planetary war slaughtering billions of non-believers, in which they will be spared and rule the Earth under old testament laws.

I'm not worried about AIPAC ruling the USA when they have so many Christians spewing this stuff year in and year out.That's where the power lies, those who frightening people to vote for the GOP or literally burning in hell for eternity for not supporting Israel.

The reasonable objection to USA support of Israeli is not rooted in anti-semitic-ism but the the belief in self-determination. That does not argue against Israel's right to exist. Allowing the Palestinians their own state is self-determination, too, just as allowing Israel to exist was promoted as a safe haven for an ethnic minority who was being persecuted. It may have been about something else entirely, but after a while what's promoted becomes reality. Generations of people have worked to continue these myths, if they are myths.

For some people the creation of Israel is a sort of people coming to America for religious freedom argument, but they colonists came here to make money in the colonies, so that's the money angle. Was there any money to be made in the creation of Israel? I'll leave that to the conspiracy folks. They may have a bead on it, but it won't change the world's acceptance of the status quo in the Middle East at this point, without some incredible discovery that will galvanize the world into ending the conflicts there.

Israel is accused of following the colonial model, which is, and should be offensive to Americans. They don't have the same Constitutional rights as we have here, but are called a democracy. I won't defend either side as America has enough of her own problems to work out without meddling with other nations' affairs. Exception to being offended to the colonial model being the fundies who find any opposition to their view of reality and God damning and worthy of death.

Self-determination was one of FDR's tenets he wanted to push after the end of WW2, but since he didn't live to continue that, things have regressed to how they were before that light of following democratic ideals was taken from us. And in many ways, we have roughly become what we fought against in WW2, in terms of business and social changes as we stumble into fascism.

I just can't help but feel there is something we're not being told. something big, that would change everything if it was revealed. That would give a push to solve the conflict over there and get us out of this high-powered, over-hyped media circus in campaigns where things are so biased. it's all love and hate, them and us in the corporate controlled media. OWS has done a great job in revealing the extent to which we're controlled by the financial cabals of this world, but done so without hatred.

We don't need to hate or get angry at either side over there. It was never intended to have foreign lobbyists in Congress pushing these old world battles. Nor should we get involved with what they are doing over there, because if we fund one side or the other, our money will continue those feuds which they would have exhausted themselves with and made peace.

I won't condemn Obama for trying to keep a coalition together, even though I don't support any involvement abroad as I believe America's best chance to influence the world is with a good example, not weaponry. But hey, what do I know. In our private lives we can generally pick and choose who we associate with and feel at peace about it. Presidents don't have that luxury. It's easy for me to sit here at a keyboard and be so pure and certain.

LOL at myself.

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  -Obama Tells Jewish Donors: No Ally More Important Than Israel slipslidingaway  Dec-01-11 12:08 AM   #0 
  - And THAT is the problem.  on point   Dec-01-11 12:34 AM   #1 
  - *THE* Problem? Really? n/t  Ian David   Dec-01-11 12:06 PM   #36 
     - on point said: "And THAT is the problem." Why do you misread that as " *THE* Problem " ?  JackRiddler   Dec-03-11 09:53 AM   #95 
  - And this after Tony Blair sold his soul so Britain could be America's best friend.  Prometheus Bound   Dec-01-11 12:36 AM   #2 
  - ...  No Elephants   Dec-01-11 06:26 AM   #21 
  - Poodles are nice, but the Lord of the Manor loves his attack dog best.  JackRiddler   Dec-03-11 09:54 AM   #96 
  - And this, my good friends, is why.....  Hulk   Dec-01-11 12:44 AM   #3 
  - liking israel and considering them a close ally is a provocation to arabs?  Mosby   Dec-01-11 10:49 AM   #29 
  - Taking their side.  sendero   Dec-02-11 05:19 AM   #72 
     - were we taking the israeli's side when we sell the saudis advanced weapon systems?  Mosby   Dec-02-11 10:39 AM   #78 
        - "We"? Who is we? I supported the "Arab Spring" in Egypt, but the US government tried to kill it.  JackRiddler   Dec-03-11 10:02 AM   #97 
        - Did they do JACK SHIT about it.  sendero   Dec-03-11 04:07 PM   #100 
  - If doing what is right causes some to hate us, then so be it. n/t  totodeinhere   Dec-01-11 01:48 PM   #47 
  - Exactly, Hulk  Carolina   Dec-02-11 11:26 AM   #83 
  - What the fuck. POLAND has stood by us stronger than Israel.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-01-11 12:48 AM   #4 
  - i think the term he used was  LanternWaste   Dec-01-11 12:18 PM   #38 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-01-11 01:04 AM   #5 
  - Why? Why is "no ally more important than Israel"?  Poll_Blind   Dec-01-11 01:07 AM   #6 
  - Jewish votes ... and Israel likes us  IamK   Dec-01-11 04:24 AM   #10 
  - The technical term is "weasel words". It's what politicians do when they are pandering to a group.  slackmaster   Dec-01-11 11:51 AM   #33 
  - Sure. Either way, it's wrong.  JackRiddler   Dec-03-11 10:04 AM   #98 
  - Because that's where Jeebus is going to return.  BiggJawn   Dec-04-11 07:28 AM   #101 
  - AIPAC runs US foreign policy. That should be clear to anyone.  Citizen Worker   Dec-01-11 03:19 AM   #7 
  - Better them than the people who would destroy Israel if they had the chance. n/t  totodeinhere   Dec-01-11 01:57 PM   #49 
     - ? Why should any country control our policy??  krabigirl   Dec-02-11 11:16 AM   #81 
  - Blah, blah, blah  Behind the Aegis   Dec-01-11 03:37 AM   #8 
  - Blah, blah, blah.  JackRiddler   Dec-03-11 10:05 AM   #99 
  - dupe  Behind the Aegis   Dec-01-11 03:37 AM   #9 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-01-11 04:44 AM   #11 
     - It was a "dupe" of my own post. The system posted my remark twice.  Behind the Aegis   Dec-01-11 05:04 AM   #12 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-01-11 05:19 AM   #13 
           - That is because my original comment was to the OP...  Behind the Aegis   Dec-01-11 05:27 AM   #14 
              - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-01-11 05:31 AM   #15 
                 - You are the one who seems paranoid.  Behind the Aegis   Dec-01-11 05:34 AM   #16 
                    - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-01-11 05:43 AM   #17 
                       - I am a Zionist. You know how powerful and evil we are.  Behind the Aegis   Dec-01-11 05:45 AM   #18 
                          - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-01-11 05:49 AM   #19 
                          - This is my favorite side-thread ever.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-01-11 12:24 PM   #39 
                          - Hard to follow it  oberliner   Dec-01-11 12:58 PM   #42 
                             - Exactly.  AtheistCrusader   Dec-01-11 01:40 PM   #45 
                             - Deleted message.....LOL  ileus   Dec-02-11 08:04 AM   #75 
                             - Impossible for me  Turborama   Dec-02-11 11:10 AM   #79 
                          - +1000  ellisonz   Dec-01-11 03:17 PM   #55 
  - This includes, unfortunately, the American people. We're WAY down the list.  saras   Dec-01-11 06:10 AM   #20 
  - Great point! n/t  MarkCharles   Dec-01-11 06:39 AM   #23 
  - True or not, good for fundraising or not, this is not a diplomatic thing for any head of state  No Elephants   Dec-01-11 06:32 AM   #22 
  - Which allies  leftynyc   Dec-01-11 06:49 AM   #25 
  - We should not piss off anyone gratuitously. Seems self evident.  No Elephants   Dec-01-11 03:28 PM   #57 
     - Sigh - the thread  leftynyc   Dec-02-11 04:02 AM   #71 
  - Actually it is standard diplomatic language and has been for decades  grantcart   Dec-01-11 11:36 AM   #32 
     - Thank you for this level-headed post  oberliner   Dec-01-11 12:10 PM   #37 
     - delete  oberliner   Dec-01-11 12:57 PM   #40 
     - I agree the language is used for multiple countries...  Violet_Crumble   Dec-03-11 12:47 AM   #93 
     - But the Israel haters at this forum don't want Israel to be an ally in good standing.  totodeinhere   Dec-01-11 02:00 PM   #50 
     - please tell me what  Carolina   Dec-02-11 11:32 AM   #84 
     - LOL. Good point.  Prometheus Bound   Dec-01-11 03:09 PM   #53 
     - Good point.  No Elephants   Dec-01-11 03:47 PM   #61 
     - +1000  mac56   Dec-02-11 06:55 AM   #73 
  - K & R for inadvertent truth. (n/t)  Nihil   Dec-01-11 06:46 AM   #24 
  - Damn right Israel is important. It has cost us dearly.  jerseyjack   Dec-01-11 07:05 AM   #26 
  - As supporters will point out ...  GeorgeGist   Dec-01-11 10:22 AM   #27 
  - Actually it is standard diplomatic language and has been for decades  grantcart   Dec-01-11 01:16 PM   #43 
  - But anyone who has been following this issue since Obama took office knows that he is a strong  totodeinhere   Dec-01-11 02:04 PM   #51 
  - Basically  legin   Dec-01-11 10:45 AM   #28 
  - oh brother...  fascisthunter   Dec-01-11 10:50 AM   #30 
  - Don't worry. He's just campaigning. Just words.  Islandlife   Dec-01-11 11:00 AM   #31 
  - If we could follow the money trail, we'd know what motivates this. I'm not talking about donors.  freshwest   Dec-01-11 11:56 AM   #34 
  - Slight addition.  ellisonz   Dec-01-11 03:43 PM   #59 
     - Could be argued that it came in first with the Founding Fathers, too.  freshwest   Dec-01-11 05:40 PM   #62 
  - I should think that the USA's "most important ally" would probably be Britain.  Spider Jerusalem   Dec-01-11 11:59 AM   #35 
  - Nothing was said about "most important ally". But it is a common misread  grantcart   Dec-01-11 01:20 PM   #44 
  - If you actually read the speech he gave, it is mostly about domestic policy  oberliner   Dec-01-11 12:58 PM   #41 
  - Please post a transcript of the speech he gave at Jack Rosen's residence, thanks. n/t  slipslidingaway   Dec-01-11 07:55 PM   #65 
     - Here ya go  oberliner   Dec-02-11 07:59 AM   #74 
        - Comments on Israel may have been noted because of who hosted the fundraiser ...  slipslidingaway   Dec-02-11 05:12 PM   #89 
           - He did some serious fundraising for Obama last time around  oberliner   Dec-02-11 11:35 PM   #90 
              - He helps both sides of the aisle, looked earlier at some of his connections ...  slipslidingaway   Dec-03-11 12:47 AM   #92 
                 - Not in the presidential election  oberliner   Dec-03-11 07:50 AM   #94 
  - Why is that? I would love a rational reason why they are chosen as our BFFs  Marrah_G   Dec-01-11 01:42 PM   #46 
  - Israel is never going to get a fair shake at this forum. I suspect that the anti Israel posters  totodeinhere   Dec-01-11 01:56 PM   #48 
  - i support the existence of israel, but am highly critical of the government of israel  La Lioness Priyanka   Dec-01-11 03:17 PM   #54 
  - The only one using the "anti-Semitic" charge is you.  Behind the Aegis   Dec-01-11 03:19 PM   #56 
  - its been used multiple times here whenever israel is criticized  La Lioness Priyanka   Dec-01-11 08:00 PM   #67 
     - And often used in the manner YOU used it.  Behind the Aegis   Dec-02-11 02:13 AM   #69 
        - what does that even mean? just yesterday someone accused someone else  La Lioness Priyanka   Dec-02-11 08:37 AM   #77 
           - Is it really that difficult for you to understand.  Behind the Aegis   Dec-02-11 04:16 PM   #88 
  - The OP was about Obama's calling Israel an important ally. It didn't address the  totodeinhere   Dec-01-11 03:41 PM   #58 
     - IMO any news should take into account the current happenings. nt  slipslidingaway   Dec-01-11 08:05 PM   #68 
  - a fair shake? Sorry, but the USA has moved mountains for Israel..enough is enough.  krabigirl   Dec-02-11 11:17 AM   #82 
     - Touche, krabigirl  Carolina   Dec-02-11 11:41 AM   #85 
  - Israel is highly overrated..nt  and-justice-for-all   Dec-01-11 02:16 PM   #52 
  - 'No disease is more important than cancer.'  Lance_Boyle   Dec-01-11 03:45 PM   #60 
  - Why? Because we strive to be as fascist as they? n/t  ozone_man   Dec-01-11 06:47 PM   #63 
  - Thanks for all the replies and recs, in light of the US selling the bunker buster bombs to Israel...  slipslidingaway   Dec-01-11 07:54 PM   #64 
  - America the honest broker  classysassy   Dec-01-11 07:58 PM   #66 
  - Excellent post, classysassy  Carolina   Dec-02-11 11:45 AM   #86 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Dec-02-11 03:57 AM   #70 
  - He's needs the money and votes...He doesn't really mean it.  ileus   Dec-02-11 08:08 AM   #76 
  - tired of politicians kissing Israel's ass.  krabigirl   Dec-02-11 11:16 AM   #80 
  - Most right-wing states are our allies  Doctor_J   Dec-02-11 12:05 PM   #87 
     - You are comparing Israel to Saudi Arabia?  oberliner   Dec-02-11 11:36 PM   #91 

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