Democratic Underground - Very shameful of us, when you look at the nations that HAVE ratified and/or signed OPCAT:

Reply #89: Very shameful of us, when you look at the nations that HAVE ratified and/or signed OPCAT: [View All]

No Elephants

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Wed Nov-30-11 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #51

89. Very shameful of us, when you look at the nations that HAVE ratified and/or signed OPCAT:

As of August 2011, 60 states have ratified the protocol: Albania, Argentina, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Benin, Bolivia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Brazil, Bulgaria, Burkina Faso, Cambodia, Chile, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Denmark, Ecuador, Estonia, France, Gabon, Georgia, Germany, Guatemala, Honduras, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Lebanon, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Luxembourg, Macedonia, Maldives, Mali, Malta, Mauritius, Mexico, Moldova, Montenegro, Netherlands, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Nigeria, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Romania, Senegal, Serbia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Togo, Tunisia, Ukraine, United Kingdom, and Uruguay.<1>

A further 22 countries have signed but not ratified the protocol: Australia, Austria, Belgium, Cameroon, Republic of the Congo, Ecuador, Finland, Gabon, Ghana, Greece, Guinea, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Madagascar, Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Sierra Leone, South Africa, Timor-Leste, Turkey, and Zambia.<1>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optional_Protocol_to_the_C...

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-Bradley Manning treatment in custody concerns MEPs	alp227	Nov-29-11 12:53 PM	#0
- They are six months too late	hack89	Nov-29-11 12:59 PM	#1
- Mendez was granted access to Manning. He just needs to obey the rules everyone else does.	msanthrope	Nov-29-11 01:12 PM	#2
- Are you inferring he was given or asked for special treatment previously	go west young man	Nov-29-11 01:23 PM	#4
- He asked for un-monitored access	hack89	Nov-29-11 01:37 PM	#6
- Let's be clear. Bradley Manning didn't ask for unmonitored access.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 02:23 PM	#8
- Because the UN has no power in America - our laws are the only ones that matter. nt	hack89	Nov-29-11 02:26 PM	#9
- And our word means nothing, apparently, when we sign agreements	EFerrari	Nov-29-11 02:31 PM	#10
- Except we never signed the OPCAT so we are true to our word. nt	hack89	Nov-29-11 02:42 PM	#14
- Go read what we signed before you try to weasel out of it.	EFerrari	Nov-29-11 02:50 PM	#16
- The UN special rapporteur's access is governed by the OPCAT	hack89	Nov-29-11 02:54 PM	#18
- And yet that changes not a whit the agreement we signed	EFerrari	Nov-29-11 03:53 PM	#38
- Never said it did.	hack89	Nov-29-11 03:58 PM	#42
- "Take me to the brig"	unionworks	Nov-29-11 11:14 PM	#76
- I doubt Chesty had Bradley Manning in mind when he said that. nt	hack89	Nov-30-11 08:09 AM	#115
- I respect your feelings	unionworks	Nov-30-11 02:48 PM	#128
- Wrong. He was denied access because he was denied access. No law requires us to deny access.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:33 AM	#88
- No law requires us to grant access	hack89	Nov-30-11 07:56 AM	#107
- Actually, I'd make the EP argument that Manning does not deserve a privilege not granted to others.	msanthrope	Nov-30-11 08:00 AM	#109
- So you seem to think.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 03:06 PM	#21
- No - I think that UN officials need to obey US laws when in America	hack89	Nov-29-11 03:19 PM	#26
- Great attitude. No wonder we're fucked globally.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 03:28 PM	#29
- I am sure he is a wonderful guy	hack89	Nov-29-11 03:38 PM	#30
- Your a sovereign nation in a fast changing world.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 03:48 PM	#33
- "Sovereign nation" = every independent country in the world.	hack89	Nov-29-11 03:52 PM	#37
- I'm not sure what your talking about.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 04:05 PM	#46
- So what exactly inspired you to post that definition of sovereign	hack89	Nov-29-11 04:11 PM	#49
- Look Rome was a sovereign state as is the congo.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 04:25 PM	#52
- And my point is the UN has no sovereign powers	hack89	Nov-29-11 04:30 PM	#53
- No the UN is not sovereign.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 04:41 PM	#55
- The UN is not more important than any single country	hack89	Nov-29-11 04:50 PM	#56
- Maybe you should do a bit of research.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 05:10 PM	#58
- Do you think they would approve of dictatorships and police states	hack89	Nov-29-11 08:07 PM	#68
- Man you need to read up.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 08:39 PM	#70
- So Stalin embodied the UN ideals?	hack89	Nov-30-11 05:31 AM	#102
- Shall we list all those wars and genocides the UN failed stop? nt	hack89	Nov-30-11 05:33 AM	#103
- So your philosophy is never attempt to have all the countries	go west young man	Nov-30-11 12:16 PM	#123
- No - just understand and accept the limitations of the organization nt	hack89	Nov-30-11 12:45 PM	#124
- If there wasn't already a United Nations, we'd have to create one	duhneece	Nov-29-11 06:06 PM	#61
- Well put.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 06:16 PM	#63
- Should it give an equal voice to human right violators	hack89	Nov-29-11 08:03 PM	#66
- The irony is that the country that most recently used it for	go west young man	Nov-29-11 09:16 PM	#71
- The counter argument is now the non-democratic states have a platform	hack89	Nov-30-11 08:01 AM	#110
- The US violates human rights and we have a voice	duhneece	Nov-30-11 09:32 AM	#121
- No - put it puts lie to the argument that the UN always embodies progressive ideals	hack89	Nov-30-11 02:06 PM	#127
- Another huge straw man. The UN made no attempt to interfere with the U.S. judicial system.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:28 AM	#87
- Besides demanding special privledges to interview Manning. nt	hack89	Nov-30-11 05:24 AM	#101
- He has a right to ask. No law against asking.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:04 AM	#79
- Funny how Mr. Manning's attorney is not asking. Ever wonder why? nt	msanthrope	Nov-30-11 08:03 AM	#112
- "We are a sovereign nation."	Nihil	Nov-30-11 05:09 AM	#100
- You have a valid point.	hack89	Nov-30-11 08:10 AM	#116
- Oh. You're one of those.	DisgustipatedinCA	Nov-29-11 09:22 PM	#72
- Mendez did not break any U.S. laws, which is a lot more than can be said about the U.S. government.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:05 AM	#80
- The basic axiom of International Law is "Sovereignty".	clixtox	Nov-30-11 03:17 AM	#99
- No, it isn't. It's SOP for torture investigations. nt	EFerrari	Nov-29-11 02:33 PM	#11
- Can you show me the applicable US laws? nt	hack89	Nov-29-11 02:40 PM	#13
- Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. Show us the US laws that mandated	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:40 AM	#90
- You have it backwards	hack89	Nov-30-11 07:53 AM	#105
- Did you forget that the US is not a signatory to the OPCAT?	hack89	Nov-29-11 02:44 PM	#15
- You seem proud of our refusal to sign the Optional Protocol Against Torture.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:08 AM	#81
- No - just pointing out some facts. nt	hack89	Nov-30-11 08:07 AM	#114
- Unmonitored access is standard procedure to determine if someone is being tortured	Matariki	Nov-29-11 03:24 PM	#27
- No - it is called for in the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture (OPCAT)	hack89	Nov-29-11 03:46 PM	#32
- Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. The only thing relevant to that claim	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:42 AM	#91
- We get to decide matters like that	hack89	Nov-30-11 12:55 PM	#126
- Yes. Mendez asked for an unmonitored visit, contrary to US law.	msanthrope	Nov-29-11 03:11 PM	#23
- The UN doesn't deal with go betweens.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 03:44 PM	#31
- Wrong - we only have to abide by those UN laws that we ratify and make US law.	hack89	Nov-29-11 03:50 PM	#35
- Deleted message	Name removed	Nov-29-11 03:54 PM	#39
- Huge straw man. Neither requesting an unmonitored visit nor granting one violates the	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:17 AM	#83
- And saying no does not constitute a violation of international law	hack89	Nov-30-11 07:55 AM	#106
- Manning's attorney isn't a go-between. And he's not alleging torture, or denial of a fair	msanthrope	Nov-29-11 04:02 PM	#45
- The higher moral ground under international UN mandate	go west young man	Nov-29-11 04:08 PM	#48
- Actually, we are 1 country out of 175 who apparently don't allow unmonitored visits.	msanthrope	Nov-29-11 04:18 PM	#51
- Maybe the US should strive for higher ideals instead of being	go west young man	Nov-29-11 04:53 PM	#57
- Actually, I think the US is protecting the concept of 'equal justice under law'	msanthrope	Nov-29-11 05:21 PM	#60
- LOL! While we're at it, please cite all the "others" who were denied this request.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:25 AM	#86
- Um, you've never been to a prison, have you??? 28 CFR 543.13 carves out	msanthrope	Nov-30-11 07:58 AM	#108
- Very shameful of us, when you look at the nations that HAVE ratified and/or signed OPCAT:	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:38 AM	#89
- UN law is not accepted as US law until it is Incorporated into domestic law	hack89	Nov-30-11 07:09 PM	#129
- US allows torture, i.e. solitary confinement	duhneece	Nov-29-11 06:10 PM	#62
- The OP cites:	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:46 AM	#92
- First, the higher moral ground has nothing to do with law. Second, refusing to sign OPCAT has	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:19 AM	#84
- Which U.S. law does asking violate again? Menez did nothing contrary to U.S. law.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:11 AM	#82
- Thought that solitary confinement had been ended --	defendandprotect	Nov-29-11 01:14 PM	#3
- It ended six month ago when he was transferred to Leavenworth. nt	hack89	Nov-29-11 01:38 PM	#7
- Gotta like this line at the end of the guardian article.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 01:37 PM	#5
- I guess Manning should not have committed treason then	vminfla	Nov-29-11 02:36 PM	#12
- There is no excuse for depriving an American citizen of a fair trial. nt	EFerrari	Nov-29-11 02:51 PM	#17
- So what would make the trial "fair"?	hack89	Nov-29-11 02:56 PM	#19
- I am and the reason that is so is listed in post #5.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 03:11 PM	#22
- Those aren't reasons - it is an emotional, un-informed rant. nt	hack89	Nov-29-11 03:15 PM	#25
- Sorry but your wrong there.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 04:00 PM	#44
- Retired Navy - I vehemently disagree. nt	hack89	Nov-29-11 04:06 PM	#47
- Who presides over the trial?	go west young man	Nov-29-11 04:15 PM	#50
- Still waiting on answer for post 50. Any day you want to chime in.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 06:19 PM	#64
- I am trying to decide which day is better. nt	hack89	Nov-29-11 08:04 PM	#67
- I assume that means you don't have a rebuttal to my argument.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 11:13 PM	#75
- We are not arguing facts - we have differing opinions	hack89	Nov-30-11 08:04 AM	#113
- It seems that all your opinions are formed around " we can do no wrong".	go west young man	Nov-30-11 08:29 AM	#117
- No - in this case they are based on real life experience. nt	hack89	Nov-30-11 08:54 AM	#120
- A biased real life experience as you have disclosed that	go west young man	Nov-30-11 12:06 PM	#122
- No - I was not senior. I sat as a member. nt	hack89	Nov-30-11 12:46 PM	#125
- When was Manning's military trial again?	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:49 AM	#93
- Pretrial starts Dec 16 n/t	tammywammy	Nov-30-11 07:42 AM	#104
- And he will have his day in court, confession and all	vminfla	Nov-29-11 02:58 PM	#20
- Interestingly, his attorney is not alleging that he is being denied a fair trial.	msanthrope	Nov-29-11 03:15 PM	#24
- Ths may seem strange to you but I don't rely on authorities	EFerrari	Nov-29-11 03:51 PM	#36
- Well, now you are accusing his attorney of malfeasance.	msanthrope	Nov-29-11 03:58 PM	#41
- His counse. has n ever said Manning is NOT being denied a fair trial, so there's no gainsaying.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:54 AM	#95
- So now his attorney is ineffective???? Poor Mr. Coombs. I guess there's no pleasing the people who	msanthrope	Nov-30-11 08:02 AM	#111
- Question for ya.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 03:26 PM	#28
- Treason has consequences and no man is above the law	vminfla	Nov-29-11 03:49 PM	#34
- I believe what he (allegedly) did has served the greater good	go west young man	Nov-29-11 03:56 PM	#40
- Send him one - I am sure prisoners are allowed trinkets. nt	hack89	Nov-29-11 03:59 PM	#43
- do you remember	unionworks	Nov-29-11 11:10 PM	#74
- The ends justify the means?	vminfla	Nov-29-11 04:40 PM	#54
- If only you guys spent as much energy attempting to bring Cheney to trial!	go west young man	Nov-29-11 05:18 PM	#59
- And you've done what to bring Cheney to trial?	BadtotheboneBob	Nov-29-11 10:14 PM	#73
- It's about hypocrisy and the reputation of the United States.	go west young man	Nov-29-11 11:20 PM	#77
- Oh, please, Louise.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:56 AM	#96
- Red Herring	vminfla	Nov-30-11 08:36 AM	#118
- Straw man. No one said Manning was above the law. And again, he's not been convicted of treason.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:50 AM	#94
- Kindly indicate where it has been proven that Manning committed treason.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 01:23 AM	#85
- His confession is going to go a long way with a successful prosecution	vminfla	Nov-30-11 08:37 AM	#119
- lol, I'm sure we'll give it the same consideration that the European parliament would give to a	Azathoth	Nov-29-11 07:07 PM	#65
- I could not	unionworks	Nov-29-11 08:34 PM	#69
- Doesn't look good -- certainly the military/government behavior is still to be questioned ...	defendandprotect	Nov-30-11 12:11 AM	#78
- Easy to see why the RW demonizes the UN.	No Elephants	Nov-30-11 02:03 AM	#97
- K&R	Solly Mack	Nov-30-11 02:21 AM	#98
- even Europe knows what torture is	lovuian	Nov-30-11 08:57 PM	#130

Reply #89: Very shameful of us, when you look at the nations that HAVE ratified and/or signed OPCAT: [View All]