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Reply #88: Wrong. He was denied access because he was denied access. No law requires us to deny access. [View All]

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-30-11 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
88. Wrong. He was denied access because he was denied access. No law requires us to deny access.
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  -Bradley Manning treatment in custody concerns MEPs alp227  Nov-29-11 12:53 PM   #0 
  - They are six months too late  hack89   Nov-29-11 12:59 PM   #1 
  - Mendez was granted access to Manning. He just needs to obey the rules everyone else does.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 01:12 PM   #2 
  - Are you inferring he was given or asked for special treatment previously  go west young man   Nov-29-11 01:23 PM   #4 
     - He asked for un-monitored access  hack89   Nov-29-11 01:37 PM   #6 
     - Let's be clear. Bradley Manning didn't ask for unmonitored access.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 02:23 PM   #8 
     - Because the UN has no power in America - our laws are the only ones that matter. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:26 PM   #9 
        - And our word means nothing, apparently, when we sign agreements  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 02:31 PM   #10 
        - Except we never signed the OPCAT so we are true to our word. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:42 PM   #14 
           - Go read what we signed before you try to weasel out of it.  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 02:50 PM   #16 
              - The UN special rapporteur's access is governed by the OPCAT  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:54 PM   #18 
                 - And yet that changes not a whit the agreement we signed  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 03:53 PM   #38 
                 - Never said it did.  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:58 PM   #42 
                    - "Take me to the brig"  unionworks   Nov-29-11 11:14 PM   #76 
                       - I doubt Chesty had Bradley Manning in mind when he said that. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:09 AM   #115 
                          - I respect your feelings  unionworks   Nov-30-11 02:48 PM   #128 
                 - Wrong. He was denied access because he was denied access. No law requires us to deny access.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:33 AM   #88 
                    - No law requires us to grant access  hack89   Nov-30-11 07:56 AM   #107 
                    - Actually, I'd make the EP argument that Manning does not deserve a privilege not granted to others.  msanthrope   Nov-30-11 08:00 AM   #109 
        - So you seem to think.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:06 PM   #21 
           - No - I think that UN officials need to obey US laws when in America  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:19 PM   #26 
           - Great attitude. No wonder we're fucked globally.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:28 PM   #29 
           - I am sure he is a wonderful guy  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:38 PM   #30 
              - Your a sovereign nation in a fast changing world.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:48 PM   #33 
              - "Sovereign nation" = every independent country in the world.  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:52 PM   #37 
                 - I'm not sure what your talking about.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:05 PM   #46 
                    - So what exactly inspired you to post that definition of sovereign  hack89   Nov-29-11 04:11 PM   #49 
                       - Look Rome was a sovereign state as is the congo.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:25 PM   #52 
                          - And my point is the UN has no sovereign powers  hack89   Nov-29-11 04:30 PM   #53 
                             - No the UN is not sovereign.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:41 PM   #55 
                             - The UN is not more important than any single country  hack89   Nov-29-11 04:50 PM   #56 
                             - Maybe you should do a bit of research.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 05:10 PM   #58 
                                - Do you think they would approve of dictatorships and police states  hack89   Nov-29-11 08:07 PM   #68 
                                - Man you need to read up.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 08:39 PM   #70 
                                - So Stalin embodied the UN ideals?  hack89   Nov-30-11 05:31 AM   #102 
                                - Shall we list all those wars and genocides the UN failed stop? nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 05:33 AM   #103 
                                - So your philosophy is never attempt to have all the countries  go west young man   Nov-30-11 12:16 PM   #123 
                                - No - just understand and accept the limitations of the organization nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 12:45 PM   #124 
                             - If there wasn't already a United Nations, we'd have to create one  duhneece   Nov-29-11 06:06 PM   #61 
                                - Well put.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 06:16 PM   #63 
                                - Should it give an equal voice to human right violators  hack89   Nov-29-11 08:03 PM   #66 
                                   - The irony is that the country that most recently used it for  go west young man   Nov-29-11 09:16 PM   #71 
                                   - The counter argument is now the non-democratic states have a platform  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:01 AM   #110 
                                   - The US violates human rights and we have a voice  duhneece   Nov-30-11 09:32 AM   #121 
                                   - No - put it puts lie to the argument that the UN always embodies progressive ideals  hack89   Nov-30-11 02:06 PM   #127 
                             - Another huge straw man. The UN made no attempt to interfere with the U.S. judicial system.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:28 AM   #87 
                                - Besides demanding special privledges to interview Manning. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 05:24 AM   #101 
              - He has a right to ask. No law against asking.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:04 AM   #79 
              - Funny how Mr. Manning's attorney is not asking. Ever wonder why? nt  msanthrope   Nov-30-11 08:03 AM   #112 
              - "We are a sovereign nation."  Nihil   Nov-30-11 05:09 AM   #100 
                 - You have a valid point.  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:10 AM   #116 
           - Oh. You're one of those.  DisgustipatedinCA   Nov-29-11 09:22 PM   #72 
           - Mendez did not break any U.S. laws, which is a lot more than can be said about the U.S. government.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:05 AM   #80 
           - The basic axiom of International Law is "Sovereignty".  clixtox   Nov-30-11 03:17 AM   #99 
     - No, it isn't. It's SOP for torture investigations. nt  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 02:33 PM   #11 
     - Can you show me the applicable US laws? nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:40 PM   #13 
     - Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. Show us the US laws that mandated  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:40 AM   #90 
        - You have it backwards  hack89   Nov-30-11 07:53 AM   #105 
     - Did you forget that the US is not a signatory to the OPCAT?  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:44 PM   #15 
        - You seem proud of our refusal to sign the Optional Protocol Against Torture.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:08 AM   #81 
           - No - just pointing out some facts. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:07 AM   #114 
     - Unmonitored access is standard procedure to determine if someone is being tortured  Matariki   Nov-29-11 03:24 PM   #27 
        - No - it is called for in the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture (OPCAT)  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:46 PM   #32 
           - Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. The only thing relevant to that claim  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:42 AM   #91 
              - We get to decide matters like that  hack89   Nov-30-11 12:55 PM   #126 
     - Yes. Mendez asked for an unmonitored visit, contrary to US law.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 03:11 PM   #23 
        - The UN doesn't deal with go betweens.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:44 PM   #31 
        - Wrong - we only have to abide by those UN laws that we ratify and make US law.  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:50 PM   #35 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-29-11 03:54 PM   #39 
        - Huge straw man. Neither requesting an unmonitored visit nor granting one violates the  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:17 AM   #83 
           - And saying no does not constitute a violation of international law  hack89   Nov-30-11 07:55 AM   #106 
        - Manning's attorney isn't a go-between. And he's not alleging torture, or denial of a fair  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 04:02 PM   #45 
           - The higher moral ground under international UN mandate  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:08 PM   #48 
           - Actually, we are 1 country out of 175 who apparently don't allow unmonitored visits.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 04:18 PM   #51 
           - Maybe the US should strive for higher ideals instead of being  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:53 PM   #57 
           - Actually, I think the US is protecting the concept of 'equal justice under law'  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 05:21 PM   #60 
              - LOL! While we're at it, please cite all the "others" who were denied this request.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:25 AM   #86 
                 - Um, you've never been to a prison, have you??? 28 CFR 543.13 carves out  msanthrope   Nov-30-11 07:58 AM   #108 
           - Very shameful of us, when you look at the nations that HAVE ratified and/or signed OPCAT:  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:38 AM   #89 
           - UN law is not accepted as US law until it is Incorporated into domestic law  hack89   Nov-30-11 07:09 PM   #129 
           - US allows torture, i.e. solitary confinement  duhneece   Nov-29-11 06:10 PM   #62 
           - The OP cites:  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:46 AM   #92 
           - First, the higher moral ground has nothing to do with law. Second, refusing to sign OPCAT has  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:19 AM   #84 
        - Which U.S. law does asking violate again? Menez did nothing contrary to U.S. law.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:11 AM   #82 
  - Thought that solitary confinement had been ended --  defendandprotect   Nov-29-11 01:14 PM   #3 
  - It ended six month ago when he was transferred to Leavenworth. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 01:38 PM   #7 
  - Gotta like this line at the end of the guardian article.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 01:37 PM   #5 
  - I guess Manning should not have committed treason then  vminfla   Nov-29-11 02:36 PM   #12 
     - There is no excuse for depriving an American citizen of a fair trial. nt  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 02:51 PM   #17 
     - So what would make the trial "fair"?  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:56 PM   #19 
     - I am and the reason that is so is listed in post #5.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:11 PM   #22 
     - Those aren't reasons - it is an emotional, un-informed rant. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:15 PM   #25 
        - Sorry but your wrong there.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:00 PM   #44 
           - Retired Navy - I vehemently disagree. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 04:06 PM   #47 
              - Who presides over the trial?  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:15 PM   #50 
              - Still waiting on answer for post 50. Any day you want to chime in.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 06:19 PM   #64 
                 - I am trying to decide which day is better. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 08:04 PM   #67 
                    - I assume that means you don't have a rebuttal to my argument.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 11:13 PM   #75 
                       - We are not arguing facts - we have differing opinions  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:04 AM   #113 
                          - It seems that all your opinions are formed around " we can do no wrong".  go west young man   Nov-30-11 08:29 AM   #117 
                             - No - in this case they are based on real life experience. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:54 AM   #120 
                                - A biased real life experience as you have disclosed that  go west young man   Nov-30-11 12:06 PM   #122 
                                   - No - I was not senior. I sat as a member. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 12:46 PM   #125 
     - When was Manning's military trial again?  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:49 AM   #93 
        - Pretrial starts Dec 16 n/t  tammywammy   Nov-30-11 07:42 AM   #104 
     - And he will have his day in court, confession and all  vminfla   Nov-29-11 02:58 PM   #20 
     - Interestingly, his attorney is not alleging that he is being denied a fair trial.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 03:15 PM   #24 
        - Ths may seem strange to you but I don't rely on authorities  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 03:51 PM   #36 
        - Well, now you are accusing his attorney of malfeasance.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 03:58 PM   #41 
        - His counse. has n ever said Manning is NOT being denied a fair trial, so there's no gainsaying.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:54 AM   #95 
           - So now his attorney is ineffective???? Poor Mr. Coombs. I guess there's no pleasing the people who  msanthrope   Nov-30-11 08:02 AM   #111 
     - Question for ya.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:26 PM   #28 
     - Treason has consequences and no man is above the law  vminfla   Nov-29-11 03:49 PM   #34 
        - I believe what he (allegedly) did has served the greater good  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:56 PM   #40 
        - Send him one - I am sure prisoners are allowed trinkets. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:59 PM   #43 
        - do you remember  unionworks   Nov-29-11 11:10 PM   #74 
        - The ends justify the means?  vminfla   Nov-29-11 04:40 PM   #54 
           - If only you guys spent as much energy attempting to bring Cheney to trial!  go west young man   Nov-29-11 05:18 PM   #59 
              - And you've done what to bring Cheney to trial?  BadtotheboneBob   Nov-29-11 10:14 PM   #73 
              - It's about hypocrisy and the reputation of the United States.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 11:20 PM   #77 
              - Oh, please, Louise.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:56 AM   #96 
              - Red Herring  vminfla   Nov-30-11 08:36 AM   #118 
        - Straw man. No one said Manning was above the law. And again, he's not been convicted of treason.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:50 AM   #94 
     - Kindly indicate where it has been proven that Manning committed treason.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:23 AM   #85 
        - His confession is going to go a long way with a successful prosecution  vminfla   Nov-30-11 08:37 AM   #119 
  - lol, I'm sure we'll give it the same consideration that the European parliament would give to a  Azathoth   Nov-29-11 07:07 PM   #65 
  - I could not  unionworks   Nov-29-11 08:34 PM   #69 
  - Doesn't look good -- certainly the military/government behavior is still to be questioned ...  defendandprotect   Nov-30-11 12:11 AM   #78 
  - Easy to see why the RW demonizes the UN.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 02:03 AM   #97 
  - K&R  Solly Mack   Nov-30-11 02:21 AM   #98 
  - even Europe knows what torture is  lovuian   Nov-30-11 08:57 PM   #130 

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