hack89
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Tue Nov-29-11 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #58 |
| 68. Do you think they would approve of dictatorships and police states |
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being members with full rights? I doubt it.
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| -Bradley Manning treatment in custody concerns MEPs |
alp227 |
Nov-29-11 12:53 PM |
#0 |
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They are six months too late |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 12:59 PM |
#1 |
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Mendez was granted access to Manning. He just needs to obey the rules everyone else does. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 01:12 PM |
#2 |
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Are you inferring he was given or asked for special treatment previously |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 01:23 PM |
#4 |
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He asked for un-monitored access |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 01:37 PM |
#6 |
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Let's be clear. Bradley Manning didn't ask for unmonitored access. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 02:23 PM |
#8 |
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Because the UN has no power in America - our laws are the only ones that matter. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:26 PM |
#9 |
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And our word means nothing, apparently, when we sign agreements |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 02:31 PM |
#10 |
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Except we never signed the OPCAT so we are true to our word. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:42 PM |
#14 |
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Go read what we signed before you try to weasel out of it. |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 02:50 PM |
#16 |
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The UN special rapporteur's access is governed by the OPCAT |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:54 PM |
#18 |
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And yet that changes not a whit the agreement we signed |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 03:53 PM |
#38 |
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Never said it did. |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:58 PM |
#42 |
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"Take me to the brig" |
unionworks |
Nov-29-11 11:14 PM |
#76 |
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I doubt Chesty had Bradley Manning in mind when he said that. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:09 AM |
#115 |
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I respect your feelings |
unionworks |
Nov-30-11 02:48 PM |
#128 |
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Wrong. He was denied access because he was denied access. No law requires us to deny access. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:33 AM |
#88 |
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No law requires us to grant access |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 07:56 AM |
#107 |
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Actually, I'd make the EP argument that Manning does not deserve a privilege not granted to others. |
msanthrope |
Nov-30-11 08:00 AM |
#109 |
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So you seem to think. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:06 PM |
#21 |
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No - I think that UN officials need to obey US laws when in America |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:19 PM |
#26 |
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Great attitude. No wonder we're fucked globally. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:28 PM |
#29 |
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I am sure he is a wonderful guy |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:38 PM |
#30 |
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Your a sovereign nation in a fast changing world. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:48 PM |
#33 |
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"Sovereign nation" = every independent country in the world. |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:52 PM |
#37 |
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I'm not sure what your talking about. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:05 PM |
#46 |
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So what exactly inspired you to post that definition of sovereign |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 04:11 PM |
#49 |
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Look Rome was a sovereign state as is the congo. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:25 PM |
#52 |
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And my point is the UN has no sovereign powers |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 04:30 PM |
#53 |
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No the UN is not sovereign. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:41 PM |
#55 |
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The UN is not more important than any single country |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 04:50 PM |
#56 |
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Maybe you should do a bit of research. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 05:10 PM |
#58 |
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Do you think they would approve of dictatorships and police states |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 08:07 PM |
#68 |
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Man you need to read up. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 08:39 PM |
#70 |
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So Stalin embodied the UN ideals? |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 05:31 AM |
#102 |
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Shall we list all those wars and genocides the UN failed stop? nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 05:33 AM |
#103 |
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So your philosophy is never attempt to have all the countries |
go west young man |
Nov-30-11 12:16 PM |
#123 |
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No - just understand and accept the limitations of the organization nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 12:45 PM |
#124 |
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If there wasn't already a United Nations, we'd have to create one |
duhneece |
Nov-29-11 06:06 PM |
#61 |
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Well put. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 06:16 PM |
#63 |
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Should it give an equal voice to human right violators |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 08:03 PM |
#66 |
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The irony is that the country that most recently used it for |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 09:16 PM |
#71 |
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The counter argument is now the non-democratic states have a platform |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:01 AM |
#110 |
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The US violates human rights and we have a voice |
duhneece |
Nov-30-11 09:32 AM |
#121 |
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No - put it puts lie to the argument that the UN always embodies progressive ideals |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 02:06 PM |
#127 |
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Another huge straw man. The UN made no attempt to interfere with the U.S. judicial system. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:28 AM |
#87 |
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Besides demanding special privledges to interview Manning. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 05:24 AM |
#101 |
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He has a right to ask. No law against asking. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:04 AM |
#79 |
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Funny how Mr. Manning's attorney is not asking. Ever wonder why? nt |
msanthrope |
Nov-30-11 08:03 AM |
#112 |
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"We are a sovereign nation." |
Nihil |
Nov-30-11 05:09 AM |
#100 |
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You have a valid point. |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:10 AM |
#116 |
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Oh. You're one of those. |
DisgustipatedinCA |
Nov-29-11 09:22 PM |
#72 |
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Mendez did not break any U.S. laws, which is a lot more than can be said about the U.S. government. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:05 AM |
#80 |
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The basic axiom of International Law is "Sovereignty". |
clixtox |
Nov-30-11 03:17 AM |
#99 |
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No, it isn't. It's SOP for torture investigations. nt |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 02:33 PM |
#11 |
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Can you show me the applicable US laws? nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:40 PM |
#13 |
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Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. Show us the US laws that mandated |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:40 AM |
#90 |
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You have it backwards |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 07:53 AM |
#105 |
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Did you forget that the US is not a signatory to the OPCAT? |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:44 PM |
#15 |
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You seem proud of our refusal to sign the Optional Protocol Against Torture. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:08 AM |
#81 |
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No - just pointing out some facts. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:07 AM |
#114 |
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Unmonitored access is standard procedure to determine if someone is being tortured |
Matariki |
Nov-29-11 03:24 PM |
#27 |
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No - it is called for in the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture (OPCAT) |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:46 PM |
#32 |
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Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. The only thing relevant to that claim |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:42 AM |
#91 |
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We get to decide matters like that |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 12:55 PM |
#126 |
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Yes. Mendez asked for an unmonitored visit, contrary to US law. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 03:11 PM |
#23 |
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The UN doesn't deal with go betweens. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:44 PM |
#31 |
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Wrong - we only have to abide by those UN laws that we ratify and make US law. |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:50 PM |
#35 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Nov-29-11 03:54 PM |
#39 |
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Huge straw man. Neither requesting an unmonitored visit nor granting one violates the |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:17 AM |
#83 |
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And saying no does not constitute a violation of international law |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 07:55 AM |
#106 |
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Manning's attorney isn't a go-between. And he's not alleging torture, or denial of a fair |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 04:02 PM |
#45 |
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The higher moral ground under international UN mandate |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:08 PM |
#48 |
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Actually, we are 1 country out of 175 who apparently don't allow unmonitored visits. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 04:18 PM |
#51 |
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Maybe the US should strive for higher ideals instead of being |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:53 PM |
#57 |
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Actually, I think the US is protecting the concept of 'equal justice under law' |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 05:21 PM |
#60 |
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LOL! While we're at it, please cite all the "others" who were denied this request. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:25 AM |
#86 |
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Um, you've never been to a prison, have you??? 28 CFR 543.13 carves out |
msanthrope |
Nov-30-11 07:58 AM |
#108 |
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Very shameful of us, when you look at the nations that HAVE ratified and/or signed OPCAT: |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:38 AM |
#89 |
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UN law is not accepted as US law until it is Incorporated into domestic law |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 07:09 PM |
#129 |
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US allows torture, i.e. solitary confinement |
duhneece |
Nov-29-11 06:10 PM |
#62 |
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The OP cites: |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:46 AM |
#92 |
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First, the higher moral ground has nothing to do with law. Second, refusing to sign OPCAT has |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:19 AM |
#84 |
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Which U.S. law does asking violate again? Menez did nothing contrary to U.S. law. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:11 AM |
#82 |
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Thought that solitary confinement had been ended -- |
defendandprotect |
Nov-29-11 01:14 PM |
#3 |
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It ended six month ago when he was transferred to Leavenworth. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 01:38 PM |
#7 |
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Gotta like this line at the end of the guardian article. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 01:37 PM |
#5 |
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I guess Manning should not have committed treason then |
vminfla |
Nov-29-11 02:36 PM |
#12 |
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There is no excuse for depriving an American citizen of a fair trial. nt |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 02:51 PM |
#17 |
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So what would make the trial "fair"? |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:56 PM |
#19 |
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I am and the reason that is so is listed in post #5. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:11 PM |
#22 |
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Those aren't reasons - it is an emotional, un-informed rant. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:15 PM |
#25 |
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Sorry but your wrong there. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:00 PM |
#44 |
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Retired Navy - I vehemently disagree. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 04:06 PM |
#47 |
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Who presides over the trial? |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:15 PM |
#50 |
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Still waiting on answer for post 50. Any day you want to chime in. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 06:19 PM |
#64 |
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I am trying to decide which day is better. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 08:04 PM |
#67 |
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I assume that means you don't have a rebuttal to my argument. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 11:13 PM |
#75 |
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We are not arguing facts - we have differing opinions |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:04 AM |
#113 |
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It seems that all your opinions are formed around " we can do no wrong". |
go west young man |
Nov-30-11 08:29 AM |
#117 |
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No - in this case they are based on real life experience. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:54 AM |
#120 |
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A biased real life experience as you have disclosed that |
go west young man |
Nov-30-11 12:06 PM |
#122 |
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No - I was not senior. I sat as a member. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 12:46 PM |
#125 |
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When was Manning's military trial again? |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:49 AM |
#93 |
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Pretrial starts Dec 16 n/t |
tammywammy |
Nov-30-11 07:42 AM |
#104 |
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And he will have his day in court, confession and all |
vminfla |
Nov-29-11 02:58 PM |
#20 |
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Interestingly, his attorney is not alleging that he is being denied a fair trial. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 03:15 PM |
#24 |
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Ths may seem strange to you but I don't rely on authorities |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 03:51 PM |
#36 |
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Well, now you are accusing his attorney of malfeasance. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 03:58 PM |
#41 |
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His counse. has n ever said Manning is NOT being denied a fair trial, so there's no gainsaying. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:54 AM |
#95 |
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So now his attorney is ineffective???? Poor Mr. Coombs. I guess there's no pleasing the people who |
msanthrope |
Nov-30-11 08:02 AM |
#111 |
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Question for ya. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:26 PM |
#28 |
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Treason has consequences and no man is above the law |
vminfla |
Nov-29-11 03:49 PM |
#34 |
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I believe what he (allegedly) did has served the greater good |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:56 PM |
#40 |
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Send him one - I am sure prisoners are allowed trinkets. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:59 PM |
#43 |
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do you remember |
unionworks |
Nov-29-11 11:10 PM |
#74 |
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The ends justify the means? |
vminfla |
Nov-29-11 04:40 PM |
#54 |
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If only you guys spent as much energy attempting to bring Cheney to trial! |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 05:18 PM |
#59 |
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And you've done what to bring Cheney to trial? |
BadtotheboneBob |
Nov-29-11 10:14 PM |
#73 |
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It's about hypocrisy and the reputation of the United States. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 11:20 PM |
#77 |
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Oh, please, Louise. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:56 AM |
#96 |
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Red Herring |
vminfla |
Nov-30-11 08:36 AM |
#118 |
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Straw man. No one said Manning was above the law. And again, he's not been convicted of treason. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:50 AM |
#94 |
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Kindly indicate where it has been proven that Manning committed treason. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:23 AM |
#85 |
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His confession is going to go a long way with a successful prosecution |
vminfla |
Nov-30-11 08:37 AM |
#119 |
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lol, I'm sure we'll give it the same consideration that the European parliament would give to a |
Azathoth |
Nov-29-11 07:07 PM |
#65 |
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I could not |
unionworks |
Nov-29-11 08:34 PM |
#69 |
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Doesn't look good -- certainly the military/government behavior is still to be questioned ... |
defendandprotect |
Nov-30-11 12:11 AM |
#78 |
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Easy to see why the RW demonizes the UN. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 02:03 AM |
#97 |
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K&R |
Solly Mack |
Nov-30-11 02:21 AM |
#98 |
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even Europe knows what torture is |
lovuian |
Nov-30-11 08:57 PM |
#130 |
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