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Reply #55: No the UN is not sovereign. [View All]

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go west young man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-29-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. No the UN is not sovereign.
The United Nations (UN) is an international organization whose stated aims are facilitating cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress, human rights, and achievement of world peace.
It is much more than a sovereign state. It was created by FDR and Churchill in 1942 in order to facilitate progress amongst the "sovereign" states of the world. The UN is much more important than the US. Let's not forget the US went
to war with Iraq without a UN mandate and look how that turned out. The US lied, 100's of thousands died, the US's reputation has suffered immensely, the lier's still remain at large protected by the US federal govt. It's amazing you don't
scream for Cheney the way you do for Bradley Manning's head considering Cheney and the Yellow Cake Plame thing has led to 5000 US service members deaths. That's where real justice needs to be served.
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  -Bradley Manning treatment in custody concerns MEPs alp227  Nov-29-11 12:53 PM   #0 
  - They are six months too late  hack89   Nov-29-11 12:59 PM   #1 
  - Mendez was granted access to Manning. He just needs to obey the rules everyone else does.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 01:12 PM   #2 
  - Are you inferring he was given or asked for special treatment previously  go west young man   Nov-29-11 01:23 PM   #4 
     - He asked for un-monitored access  hack89   Nov-29-11 01:37 PM   #6 
     - Let's be clear. Bradley Manning didn't ask for unmonitored access.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 02:23 PM   #8 
     - Because the UN has no power in America - our laws are the only ones that matter. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:26 PM   #9 
        - And our word means nothing, apparently, when we sign agreements  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 02:31 PM   #10 
        - Except we never signed the OPCAT so we are true to our word. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:42 PM   #14 
           - Go read what we signed before you try to weasel out of it.  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 02:50 PM   #16 
              - The UN special rapporteur's access is governed by the OPCAT  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:54 PM   #18 
                 - And yet that changes not a whit the agreement we signed  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 03:53 PM   #38 
                 - Never said it did.  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:58 PM   #42 
                    - "Take me to the brig"  unionworks   Nov-29-11 11:14 PM   #76 
                       - I doubt Chesty had Bradley Manning in mind when he said that. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:09 AM   #115 
                          - I respect your feelings  unionworks   Nov-30-11 02:48 PM   #128 
                 - Wrong. He was denied access because he was denied access. No law requires us to deny access.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:33 AM   #88 
                    - No law requires us to grant access  hack89   Nov-30-11 07:56 AM   #107 
                    - Actually, I'd make the EP argument that Manning does not deserve a privilege not granted to others.  msanthrope   Nov-30-11 08:00 AM   #109 
        - So you seem to think.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:06 PM   #21 
           - No - I think that UN officials need to obey US laws when in America  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:19 PM   #26 
           - Great attitude. No wonder we're fucked globally.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:28 PM   #29 
           - I am sure he is a wonderful guy  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:38 PM   #30 
              - Your a sovereign nation in a fast changing world.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:48 PM   #33 
              - "Sovereign nation" = every independent country in the world.  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:52 PM   #37 
                 - I'm not sure what your talking about.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:05 PM   #46 
                    - So what exactly inspired you to post that definition of sovereign  hack89   Nov-29-11 04:11 PM   #49 
                       - Look Rome was a sovereign state as is the congo.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:25 PM   #52 
                          - And my point is the UN has no sovereign powers  hack89   Nov-29-11 04:30 PM   #53 
                             - No the UN is not sovereign.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:41 PM   #55 
                             - The UN is not more important than any single country  hack89   Nov-29-11 04:50 PM   #56 
                             - Maybe you should do a bit of research.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 05:10 PM   #58 
                                - Do you think they would approve of dictatorships and police states  hack89   Nov-29-11 08:07 PM   #68 
                                - Man you need to read up.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 08:39 PM   #70 
                                - So Stalin embodied the UN ideals?  hack89   Nov-30-11 05:31 AM   #102 
                                - Shall we list all those wars and genocides the UN failed stop? nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 05:33 AM   #103 
                                - So your philosophy is never attempt to have all the countries  go west young man   Nov-30-11 12:16 PM   #123 
                                - No - just understand and accept the limitations of the organization nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 12:45 PM   #124 
                             - If there wasn't already a United Nations, we'd have to create one  duhneece   Nov-29-11 06:06 PM   #61 
                                - Well put.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 06:16 PM   #63 
                                - Should it give an equal voice to human right violators  hack89   Nov-29-11 08:03 PM   #66 
                                   - The irony is that the country that most recently used it for  go west young man   Nov-29-11 09:16 PM   #71 
                                   - The counter argument is now the non-democratic states have a platform  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:01 AM   #110 
                                   - The US violates human rights and we have a voice  duhneece   Nov-30-11 09:32 AM   #121 
                                   - No - put it puts lie to the argument that the UN always embodies progressive ideals  hack89   Nov-30-11 02:06 PM   #127 
                             - Another huge straw man. The UN made no attempt to interfere with the U.S. judicial system.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:28 AM   #87 
                                - Besides demanding special privledges to interview Manning. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 05:24 AM   #101 
              - He has a right to ask. No law against asking.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:04 AM   #79 
              - Funny how Mr. Manning's attorney is not asking. Ever wonder why? nt  msanthrope   Nov-30-11 08:03 AM   #112 
              - "We are a sovereign nation."  Nihil   Nov-30-11 05:09 AM   #100 
                 - You have a valid point.  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:10 AM   #116 
           - Oh. You're one of those.  DisgustipatedinCA   Nov-29-11 09:22 PM   #72 
           - Mendez did not break any U.S. laws, which is a lot more than can be said about the U.S. government.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:05 AM   #80 
           - The basic axiom of International Law is "Sovereignty".  clixtox   Nov-30-11 03:17 AM   #99 
     - No, it isn't. It's SOP for torture investigations. nt  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 02:33 PM   #11 
     - Can you show me the applicable US laws? nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:40 PM   #13 
     - Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. Show us the US laws that mandated  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:40 AM   #90 
        - You have it backwards  hack89   Nov-30-11 07:53 AM   #105 
     - Did you forget that the US is not a signatory to the OPCAT?  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:44 PM   #15 
        - You seem proud of our refusal to sign the Optional Protocol Against Torture.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:08 AM   #81 
           - No - just pointing out some facts. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:07 AM   #114 
     - Unmonitored access is standard procedure to determine if someone is being tortured  Matariki   Nov-29-11 03:24 PM   #27 
        - No - it is called for in the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture (OPCAT)  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:46 PM   #32 
           - Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. The only thing relevant to that claim  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:42 AM   #91 
              - We get to decide matters like that  hack89   Nov-30-11 12:55 PM   #126 
     - Yes. Mendez asked for an unmonitored visit, contrary to US law.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 03:11 PM   #23 
        - The UN doesn't deal with go betweens.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:44 PM   #31 
        - Wrong - we only have to abide by those UN laws that we ratify and make US law.  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:50 PM   #35 
        - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-29-11 03:54 PM   #39 
        - Huge straw man. Neither requesting an unmonitored visit nor granting one violates the  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:17 AM   #83 
           - And saying no does not constitute a violation of international law  hack89   Nov-30-11 07:55 AM   #106 
        - Manning's attorney isn't a go-between. And he's not alleging torture, or denial of a fair  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 04:02 PM   #45 
           - The higher moral ground under international UN mandate  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:08 PM   #48 
           - Actually, we are 1 country out of 175 who apparently don't allow unmonitored visits.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 04:18 PM   #51 
           - Maybe the US should strive for higher ideals instead of being  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:53 PM   #57 
           - Actually, I think the US is protecting the concept of 'equal justice under law'  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 05:21 PM   #60 
              - LOL! While we're at it, please cite all the "others" who were denied this request.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:25 AM   #86 
                 - Um, you've never been to a prison, have you??? 28 CFR 543.13 carves out  msanthrope   Nov-30-11 07:58 AM   #108 
           - Very shameful of us, when you look at the nations that HAVE ratified and/or signed OPCAT:  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:38 AM   #89 
           - UN law is not accepted as US law until it is Incorporated into domestic law  hack89   Nov-30-11 07:09 PM   #129 
           - US allows torture, i.e. solitary confinement  duhneece   Nov-29-11 06:10 PM   #62 
           - The OP cites:  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:46 AM   #92 
           - First, the higher moral ground has nothing to do with law. Second, refusing to sign OPCAT has  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:19 AM   #84 
        - Which U.S. law does asking violate again? Menez did nothing contrary to U.S. law.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:11 AM   #82 
  - Thought that solitary confinement had been ended --  defendandprotect   Nov-29-11 01:14 PM   #3 
  - It ended six month ago when he was transferred to Leavenworth. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 01:38 PM   #7 
  - Gotta like this line at the end of the guardian article.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 01:37 PM   #5 
  - I guess Manning should not have committed treason then  vminfla   Nov-29-11 02:36 PM   #12 
     - There is no excuse for depriving an American citizen of a fair trial. nt  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 02:51 PM   #17 
     - So what would make the trial "fair"?  hack89   Nov-29-11 02:56 PM   #19 
     - I am and the reason that is so is listed in post #5.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:11 PM   #22 
     - Those aren't reasons - it is an emotional, un-informed rant. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:15 PM   #25 
        - Sorry but your wrong there.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:00 PM   #44 
           - Retired Navy - I vehemently disagree. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 04:06 PM   #47 
              - Who presides over the trial?  go west young man   Nov-29-11 04:15 PM   #50 
              - Still waiting on answer for post 50. Any day you want to chime in.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 06:19 PM   #64 
                 - I am trying to decide which day is better. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 08:04 PM   #67 
                    - I assume that means you don't have a rebuttal to my argument.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 11:13 PM   #75 
                       - We are not arguing facts - we have differing opinions  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:04 AM   #113 
                          - It seems that all your opinions are formed around " we can do no wrong".  go west young man   Nov-30-11 08:29 AM   #117 
                             - No - in this case they are based on real life experience. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 08:54 AM   #120 
                                - A biased real life experience as you have disclosed that  go west young man   Nov-30-11 12:06 PM   #122 
                                   - No - I was not senior. I sat as a member. nt  hack89   Nov-30-11 12:46 PM   #125 
     - When was Manning's military trial again?  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:49 AM   #93 
        - Pretrial starts Dec 16 n/t  tammywammy   Nov-30-11 07:42 AM   #104 
     - And he will have his day in court, confession and all  vminfla   Nov-29-11 02:58 PM   #20 
     - Interestingly, his attorney is not alleging that he is being denied a fair trial.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 03:15 PM   #24 
        - Ths may seem strange to you but I don't rely on authorities  EFerrari   Nov-29-11 03:51 PM   #36 
        - Well, now you are accusing his attorney of malfeasance.  msanthrope   Nov-29-11 03:58 PM   #41 
        - His counse. has n ever said Manning is NOT being denied a fair trial, so there's no gainsaying.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:54 AM   #95 
           - So now his attorney is ineffective???? Poor Mr. Coombs. I guess there's no pleasing the people who  msanthrope   Nov-30-11 08:02 AM   #111 
     - Question for ya.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:26 PM   #28 
     - Treason has consequences and no man is above the law  vminfla   Nov-29-11 03:49 PM   #34 
        - I believe what he (allegedly) did has served the greater good  go west young man   Nov-29-11 03:56 PM   #40 
        - Send him one - I am sure prisoners are allowed trinkets. nt  hack89   Nov-29-11 03:59 PM   #43 
        - do you remember  unionworks   Nov-29-11 11:10 PM   #74 
        - The ends justify the means?  vminfla   Nov-29-11 04:40 PM   #54 
           - If only you guys spent as much energy attempting to bring Cheney to trial!  go west young man   Nov-29-11 05:18 PM   #59 
              - And you've done what to bring Cheney to trial?  BadtotheboneBob   Nov-29-11 10:14 PM   #73 
              - It's about hypocrisy and the reputation of the United States.  go west young man   Nov-29-11 11:20 PM   #77 
              - Oh, please, Louise.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:56 AM   #96 
              - Red Herring  vminfla   Nov-30-11 08:36 AM   #118 
        - Straw man. No one said Manning was above the law. And again, he's not been convicted of treason.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:50 AM   #94 
     - Kindly indicate where it has been proven that Manning committed treason.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 01:23 AM   #85 
        - His confession is going to go a long way with a successful prosecution  vminfla   Nov-30-11 08:37 AM   #119 
  - lol, I'm sure we'll give it the same consideration that the European parliament would give to a  Azathoth   Nov-29-11 07:07 PM   #65 
  - I could not  unionworks   Nov-29-11 08:34 PM   #69 
  - Doesn't look good -- certainly the military/government behavior is still to be questioned ...  defendandprotect   Nov-30-11 12:11 AM   #78 
  - Easy to see why the RW demonizes the UN.  No Elephants   Nov-30-11 02:03 AM   #97 
  - K&R  Solly Mack   Nov-30-11 02:21 AM   #98 
  - even Europe knows what torture is  lovuian   Nov-30-11 08:57 PM   #130 
 

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