go west young man
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Tue Nov-29-11 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #53 |
| 55. No the UN is not sovereign. |
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The United Nations (UN) is an international organization whose stated aims are facilitating cooperation in international law, international security, economic development, social progress, human rights, and achievement of world peace.
It is much more than a sovereign state. It was created by FDR and Churchill in 1942 in order to facilitate progress amongst the "sovereign" states of the world. The UN is much more important than the US. Let's not forget the US went
to war with Iraq without a UN mandate and look how that turned out. The US lied, 100's of thousands died, the US's reputation has suffered immensely, the lier's still remain at large protected by the US federal govt. It's amazing you don't
scream for Cheney the way you do for Bradley Manning's head considering Cheney and the Yellow Cake Plame thing has led to 5000 US service members deaths. That's where real justice needs to be served.
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| -Bradley Manning treatment in custody concerns MEPs |
alp227 |
Nov-29-11 12:53 PM |
#0 |
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They are six months too late |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 12:59 PM |
#1 |
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Mendez was granted access to Manning. He just needs to obey the rules everyone else does. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 01:12 PM |
#2 |
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Are you inferring he was given or asked for special treatment previously |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 01:23 PM |
#4 |
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He asked for un-monitored access |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 01:37 PM |
#6 |
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Let's be clear. Bradley Manning didn't ask for unmonitored access. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 02:23 PM |
#8 |
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Because the UN has no power in America - our laws are the only ones that matter. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:26 PM |
#9 |
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And our word means nothing, apparently, when we sign agreements |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 02:31 PM |
#10 |
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Except we never signed the OPCAT so we are true to our word. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:42 PM |
#14 |
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Go read what we signed before you try to weasel out of it. |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 02:50 PM |
#16 |
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The UN special rapporteur's access is governed by the OPCAT |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:54 PM |
#18 |
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And yet that changes not a whit the agreement we signed |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 03:53 PM |
#38 |
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Never said it did. |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:58 PM |
#42 |
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"Take me to the brig" |
unionworks |
Nov-29-11 11:14 PM |
#76 |
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I doubt Chesty had Bradley Manning in mind when he said that. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:09 AM |
#115 |
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I respect your feelings |
unionworks |
Nov-30-11 02:48 PM |
#128 |
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Wrong. He was denied access because he was denied access. No law requires us to deny access. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:33 AM |
#88 |
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No law requires us to grant access |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 07:56 AM |
#107 |
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Actually, I'd make the EP argument that Manning does not deserve a privilege not granted to others. |
msanthrope |
Nov-30-11 08:00 AM |
#109 |
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So you seem to think. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:06 PM |
#21 |
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No - I think that UN officials need to obey US laws when in America |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:19 PM |
#26 |
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Great attitude. No wonder we're fucked globally. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:28 PM |
#29 |
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I am sure he is a wonderful guy |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:38 PM |
#30 |
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Your a sovereign nation in a fast changing world. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:48 PM |
#33 |
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"Sovereign nation" = every independent country in the world. |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:52 PM |
#37 |
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I'm not sure what your talking about. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:05 PM |
#46 |
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So what exactly inspired you to post that definition of sovereign |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 04:11 PM |
#49 |
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Look Rome was a sovereign state as is the congo. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:25 PM |
#52 |
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And my point is the UN has no sovereign powers |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 04:30 PM |
#53 |
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No the UN is not sovereign. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:41 PM |
#55 |
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The UN is not more important than any single country |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 04:50 PM |
#56 |
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Maybe you should do a bit of research. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 05:10 PM |
#58 |
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Do you think they would approve of dictatorships and police states |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 08:07 PM |
#68 |
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Man you need to read up. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 08:39 PM |
#70 |
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So Stalin embodied the UN ideals? |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 05:31 AM |
#102 |
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Shall we list all those wars and genocides the UN failed stop? nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 05:33 AM |
#103 |
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So your philosophy is never attempt to have all the countries |
go west young man |
Nov-30-11 12:16 PM |
#123 |
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No - just understand and accept the limitations of the organization nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 12:45 PM |
#124 |
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If there wasn't already a United Nations, we'd have to create one |
duhneece |
Nov-29-11 06:06 PM |
#61 |
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Well put. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 06:16 PM |
#63 |
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Should it give an equal voice to human right violators |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 08:03 PM |
#66 |
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The irony is that the country that most recently used it for |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 09:16 PM |
#71 |
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The counter argument is now the non-democratic states have a platform |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:01 AM |
#110 |
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The US violates human rights and we have a voice |
duhneece |
Nov-30-11 09:32 AM |
#121 |
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No - put it puts lie to the argument that the UN always embodies progressive ideals |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 02:06 PM |
#127 |
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Another huge straw man. The UN made no attempt to interfere with the U.S. judicial system. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:28 AM |
#87 |
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Besides demanding special privledges to interview Manning. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 05:24 AM |
#101 |
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He has a right to ask. No law against asking. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:04 AM |
#79 |
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Funny how Mr. Manning's attorney is not asking. Ever wonder why? nt |
msanthrope |
Nov-30-11 08:03 AM |
#112 |
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"We are a sovereign nation." |
Nihil |
Nov-30-11 05:09 AM |
#100 |
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You have a valid point. |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:10 AM |
#116 |
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Oh. You're one of those. |
DisgustipatedinCA |
Nov-29-11 09:22 PM |
#72 |
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Mendez did not break any U.S. laws, which is a lot more than can be said about the U.S. government. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:05 AM |
#80 |
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The basic axiom of International Law is "Sovereignty". |
clixtox |
Nov-30-11 03:17 AM |
#99 |
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No, it isn't. It's SOP for torture investigations. nt |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 02:33 PM |
#11 |
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Can you show me the applicable US laws? nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:40 PM |
#13 |
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Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. Show us the US laws that mandated |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:40 AM |
#90 |
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You have it backwards |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 07:53 AM |
#105 |
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Did you forget that the US is not a signatory to the OPCAT? |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:44 PM |
#15 |
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You seem proud of our refusal to sign the Optional Protocol Against Torture. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:08 AM |
#81 |
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No - just pointing out some facts. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:07 AM |
#114 |
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Unmonitored access is standard procedure to determine if someone is being tortured |
Matariki |
Nov-29-11 03:24 PM |
#27 |
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No - it is called for in the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture (OPCAT) |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:46 PM |
#32 |
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Irrelevant to whether it is SOP for torture investigations. The only thing relevant to that claim |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:42 AM |
#91 |
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We get to decide matters like that |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 12:55 PM |
#126 |
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Yes. Mendez asked for an unmonitored visit, contrary to US law. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 03:11 PM |
#23 |
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The UN doesn't deal with go betweens. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:44 PM |
#31 |
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Wrong - we only have to abide by those UN laws that we ratify and make US law. |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:50 PM |
#35 |
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Deleted message |
Name removed |
Nov-29-11 03:54 PM |
#39 |
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Huge straw man. Neither requesting an unmonitored visit nor granting one violates the |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:17 AM |
#83 |
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And saying no does not constitute a violation of international law |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 07:55 AM |
#106 |
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Manning's attorney isn't a go-between. And he's not alleging torture, or denial of a fair |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 04:02 PM |
#45 |
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The higher moral ground under international UN mandate |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:08 PM |
#48 |
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Actually, we are 1 country out of 175 who apparently don't allow unmonitored visits. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 04:18 PM |
#51 |
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Maybe the US should strive for higher ideals instead of being |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:53 PM |
#57 |
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Actually, I think the US is protecting the concept of 'equal justice under law' |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 05:21 PM |
#60 |
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LOL! While we're at it, please cite all the "others" who were denied this request. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:25 AM |
#86 |
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Um, you've never been to a prison, have you??? 28 CFR 543.13 carves out |
msanthrope |
Nov-30-11 07:58 AM |
#108 |
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Very shameful of us, when you look at the nations that HAVE ratified and/or signed OPCAT: |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:38 AM |
#89 |
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UN law is not accepted as US law until it is Incorporated into domestic law |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 07:09 PM |
#129 |
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US allows torture, i.e. solitary confinement |
duhneece |
Nov-29-11 06:10 PM |
#62 |
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The OP cites: |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:46 AM |
#92 |
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First, the higher moral ground has nothing to do with law. Second, refusing to sign OPCAT has |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:19 AM |
#84 |
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Which U.S. law does asking violate again? Menez did nothing contrary to U.S. law. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:11 AM |
#82 |
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Thought that solitary confinement had been ended -- |
defendandprotect |
Nov-29-11 01:14 PM |
#3 |
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It ended six month ago when he was transferred to Leavenworth. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 01:38 PM |
#7 |
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Gotta like this line at the end of the guardian article. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 01:37 PM |
#5 |
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I guess Manning should not have committed treason then |
vminfla |
Nov-29-11 02:36 PM |
#12 |
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There is no excuse for depriving an American citizen of a fair trial. nt |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 02:51 PM |
#17 |
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So what would make the trial "fair"? |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 02:56 PM |
#19 |
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I am and the reason that is so is listed in post #5. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:11 PM |
#22 |
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Those aren't reasons - it is an emotional, un-informed rant. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:15 PM |
#25 |
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Sorry but your wrong there. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:00 PM |
#44 |
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Retired Navy - I vehemently disagree. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 04:06 PM |
#47 |
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Who presides over the trial? |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 04:15 PM |
#50 |
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Still waiting on answer for post 50. Any day you want to chime in. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 06:19 PM |
#64 |
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I am trying to decide which day is better. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 08:04 PM |
#67 |
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I assume that means you don't have a rebuttal to my argument. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 11:13 PM |
#75 |
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We are not arguing facts - we have differing opinions |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:04 AM |
#113 |
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It seems that all your opinions are formed around " we can do no wrong". |
go west young man |
Nov-30-11 08:29 AM |
#117 |
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No - in this case they are based on real life experience. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 08:54 AM |
#120 |
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A biased real life experience as you have disclosed that |
go west young man |
Nov-30-11 12:06 PM |
#122 |
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No - I was not senior. I sat as a member. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-30-11 12:46 PM |
#125 |
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When was Manning's military trial again? |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:49 AM |
#93 |
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Pretrial starts Dec 16 n/t |
tammywammy |
Nov-30-11 07:42 AM |
#104 |
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And he will have his day in court, confession and all |
vminfla |
Nov-29-11 02:58 PM |
#20 |
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Interestingly, his attorney is not alleging that he is being denied a fair trial. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 03:15 PM |
#24 |
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Ths may seem strange to you but I don't rely on authorities |
EFerrari |
Nov-29-11 03:51 PM |
#36 |
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Well, now you are accusing his attorney of malfeasance. |
msanthrope |
Nov-29-11 03:58 PM |
#41 |
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His counse. has n ever said Manning is NOT being denied a fair trial, so there's no gainsaying. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:54 AM |
#95 |
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So now his attorney is ineffective???? Poor Mr. Coombs. I guess there's no pleasing the people who |
msanthrope |
Nov-30-11 08:02 AM |
#111 |
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Question for ya. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:26 PM |
#28 |
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Treason has consequences and no man is above the law |
vminfla |
Nov-29-11 03:49 PM |
#34 |
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I believe what he (allegedly) did has served the greater good |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 03:56 PM |
#40 |
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Send him one - I am sure prisoners are allowed trinkets. nt |
hack89 |
Nov-29-11 03:59 PM |
#43 |
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do you remember |
unionworks |
Nov-29-11 11:10 PM |
#74 |
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The ends justify the means? |
vminfla |
Nov-29-11 04:40 PM |
#54 |
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If only you guys spent as much energy attempting to bring Cheney to trial! |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 05:18 PM |
#59 |
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And you've done what to bring Cheney to trial? |
BadtotheboneBob |
Nov-29-11 10:14 PM |
#73 |
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It's about hypocrisy and the reputation of the United States. |
go west young man |
Nov-29-11 11:20 PM |
#77 |
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Oh, please, Louise. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:56 AM |
#96 |
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Red Herring |
vminfla |
Nov-30-11 08:36 AM |
#118 |
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Straw man. No one said Manning was above the law. And again, he's not been convicted of treason. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:50 AM |
#94 |
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Kindly indicate where it has been proven that Manning committed treason. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 01:23 AM |
#85 |
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His confession is going to go a long way with a successful prosecution |
vminfla |
Nov-30-11 08:37 AM |
#119 |
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lol, I'm sure we'll give it the same consideration that the European parliament would give to a |
Azathoth |
Nov-29-11 07:07 PM |
#65 |
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I could not |
unionworks |
Nov-29-11 08:34 PM |
#69 |
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Doesn't look good -- certainly the military/government behavior is still to be questioned ... |
defendandprotect |
Nov-30-11 12:11 AM |
#78 |
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Easy to see why the RW demonizes the UN. |
No Elephants |
Nov-30-11 02:03 AM |
#97 |
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K&R |
Solly Mack |
Nov-30-11 02:21 AM |
#98 |
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even Europe knows what torture is |
lovuian |
Nov-30-11 08:57 PM |
#130 |
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