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Reply #24: I have some thoughts of this subject.. [View All]

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Lars77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-25-11 08:09 PM
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24. I have some thoughts of this subject..
First of all, people cant agree on what "integration" means. To some people it simply means that people who come agree to a fundamental set of principles, such as freedom of speech, equality etc. This is what the US does.

But others, and this applies especially to conservative Europeans, integration means assimilation. It means people abandoning their own culture and completely assimilating into the native culture of the country.


I lived in Oslo most of my life, and i have to admit that Norwegians are very conservtive in this regard, more so than we realize. You cannot compare it to the United States, which is a country that is made to accept immigrants by design.

Norway and other Scandinavian countries have never really had a system to deal with this, and while both the US and Canada have been very good at getting the "right sort" of immigrant. They have tapped into the "brain drain" from other nations, getting resourceful migrants who establish themselves easily, and on the other hand have used many seasona migrant workers for agriculture.

I think that the Scandinavian countries have been more honest by taking in a lot of poor people from north africa, people who are illiterate, extremely conservative and religious. Then we do not even make it mandatory to learn our language, and provide very poor information on what they need to do: Instead we simply include them into our welfare state which provides benefits they have never dreamed of. Its a beaurocracy that is very hard to navigate and understand for a foreigner.

In addition, the "integration debate" has been dominated by Anders Breiviks progress party, a populist "libertarian/right wing" party who have made all kinds of stupid suggestions like banning immigrants from Oslo county, putting GPS foot braces on asylum seekers etc. The result is that they have contaminated the debate to such an extent that everyone on the left freaks out every time someone makes even a reasonable suggestion. It is simply politically uncorrect to make any suggestion that puts requirements on the shoulders of the immigrants, even things like mandatory language training.

The result is that we are seeing a ghettofication of parts of Oslo. And to make matters worse, Oslo have experienced a huge rape wave where women are assaulted in parks, especially on the weekends. The police appear to be completely mismanaged, as rescent reports have shown that there are way fewer cops on duty on weekend nights than weekdays - yes im not kidding, it is insane. And yes, it is a sad fact that a vast majority of these kinds of rapes (not the "get a girl you know drunk at a party" type, but the "hide in the bushes in a dark park and assault a woman" type) are perpetrated by men of north amfrican or middle eastern origin.

Personally, i believe that if you take an uneducated man from a muslim culture, and put him in a position where he feels like he has nothing to do and no purpose and have him live in a society where white, blonde women walk freely, he might just feel he can do what they do at home. Its a fact that female reporters have been assaulted in Egypt for example.

With such a large muslim minority in Oslo and very few muslims in the rest of the country, which is largely white, rural and has very little contact with foreigners, you have a recipe for a very large and potent conflict which manifests itself in daily skepticism and mistrust. And it is fuelled by conservative muslims on the one side, and populist right wingers on the other.

So not all is hunky dory up in Scandinavia either, folks. We have some serious issues. And i also suspect that many of our older, norwegian citizens feel ownership of our welfare state, and that also fuels the skepticism against our new citizens.

With regards to this school, i am going to guess that this is a case of a school being put under pressure by hysterical parents. "White flight" is actually an issue, and people are suggesting busing to the almost all white schools in the upper class areas in the west for example.

To call it Apartheid is bullshit, however as it implies that the minority students would get worse facilities etc.

I spent 20 minutes writing this post, please dont just answer it with a silly oneliner comment :)
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  -Apartheid row at Norwegian school after it segregates ethnic pupils Judi Lynn  Nov-25-11 02:59 PM   #0 
  - Interesting. Puts a different light on the shootings over there. They  jwirr   Nov-25-11 03:16 PM   #1 
  - Judi Lynn  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 05:24 PM   #2 
  - Is this some kind of code phrase?  Ash_F   Nov-25-11 05:40 PM   #3 
  - Ash_F  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 06:23 PM   #4 
  - "We doesn't have all this "hate-radio" in our airwaves"  boppers   Nov-25-11 08:33 PM   #34 
  - boppers  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 08:58 PM   #37 
  - One last comment before I leave for the night.  Ash_F   Nov-25-11 11:45 PM   #51 
     - Ash_F  Diclotican   Nov-26-11 09:24 AM   #54 
        - Again you dodge the question about the racist propaganda line you used  Ash_F   Nov-26-11 12:35 PM   #59 
           - Ash_F  Diclotican   Nov-26-11 01:29 PM   #60 
              - I speak two languages, my parents language was my first and English was my second  Ash_F   Nov-26-11 01:44 PM   #62 
  - You are rude. Diclotican has been on DU for many years & his insights are invaluable.  scarletwoman   Nov-25-11 06:49 PM   #7 
  - scarletwoman  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 07:05 PM   #9 
  - You misunderstood scarletwoman's post. She was defending you  tblue37   Nov-25-11 07:17 PM   #12 
  - tblue37  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 07:24 PM   #15 
  - Scarlettwoman was calling Ash_F rude...  awoke_in_2003   Nov-25-11 07:23 PM   #14 
  - awoke_in_2003  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 07:24 PM   #16 
  - Dear Diclotican, it was not you I was calling "rude", it was Ash_F.  scarletwoman   Nov-25-11 07:28 PM   #18 
     - scarletwoman  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 07:47 PM   #21 
        - I was not offended at all. One of my greatest regrets is that I do not know how to speak Norwegian.  scarletwoman   Nov-25-11 08:31 PM   #33 
           - scarletwoman  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 08:46 PM   #36 
  - Exactly how is segregating children by ethnicity in schools supposed to aid in assimilation?  entanglement   Nov-25-11 10:00 PM   #42 
  - entanglement  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 10:09 PM   #44 
     - Good to hear that  entanglement   Nov-25-11 10:57 PM   #47 
        - entanglement  Diclotican   Nov-26-11 09:27 AM   #55 
  - People can be wrong for many years.  Ash_F   Nov-25-11 10:17 PM   #45 
  - Agree...  IthinkThereforeIAM   Nov-26-11 11:03 AM   #56 
  - The country's GOVERNMENT made that decision  lbrtbell   Nov-25-11 09:28 PM   #40 
  - Do you have a link for this?  Ash_F   Nov-25-11 11:15 PM   #49 
  - Your comment is somewhat rude and shows ignorance.  Yo_Mama   Nov-25-11 09:29 PM   #41 
     - That is so gracious. I was exactly right. nt  Ash_F   Nov-25-11 10:50 PM   #46 
  - Can we assume these kids were born in Norway?  Prometheus Bound   Nov-25-11 06:29 PM   #5 
  - if they are born there, but still won't integrate, then yes, it is an issue.  provis99   Nov-25-11 06:33 PM   #6 
     - But D is talking about the first generation.  Prometheus Bound   Nov-25-11 07:37 PM   #20 
     - Prometheus Bound  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 07:56 PM   #22 
        - In Oslo there are plenty of 3rd 4th gen immigrants who do not identify as Norwegians  Lars77   Nov-25-11 08:23 PM   #28 
     - Integration is a two way street. In the U.S., for example, "ghettos" of various kinds  No Elephants   Nov-25-11 08:22 PM   #27 
  - There are plenty immigrants who came to America and never learned Enligh  SpartanDem   Nov-25-11 07:08 PM   #10 
  - SpartanDem  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 07:37 PM   #19 
  - We're better at integrating people  XemaSab   Nov-25-11 07:10 PM   #11 
  - The U.S. has npt been all that great at integrating, especially non-whites.  No Elephants   Nov-25-11 08:25 PM   #29 
  - Except for that electing a black President thing.  Nye Bevan   Nov-25-11 11:14 PM   #48 
     - Nye Bevan  Diclotican   Nov-26-11 09:05 AM   #53 
  - Part of the reason for America being "better at integration" is that anyone can be an American.  Spider Jerusalem   Nov-26-11 01:56 AM   #52 
  - There are different degrees of 'integration'  Samba   Nov-25-11 07:25 PM   #17 
  - This is a long standing problem with no obvious solution  grantcart   Nov-26-11 11:19 AM   #57 
  - I've said the shooting were just tip of iceberg,  SpartanDem   Nov-25-11 06:53 PM   #8 
  - SpartanDem  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 07:23 PM   #13 
     - I appreciate the feedback  DonCoquixote   Nov-25-11 08:05 PM   #23 
        - Not democratic, but welfare state perhaps?  Lars77   Nov-25-11 08:15 PM   #25 
        - Lars77  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 08:30 PM   #31 
        - That was a classic progress party play  Lars77   Nov-25-11 08:35 PM   #35 
           - Lars77  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 09:05 PM   #38 
        - Lars77  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 08:30 PM   #32 
        - DonCoquixote  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 08:20 PM   #26 
  - I have some thoughts of this subject..  Lars77   Nov-25-11 08:09 PM   #24 
  - Separate but equal  Samba   Nov-25-11 09:25 PM   #39 
  - Samba  Diclotican   Nov-25-11 10:07 PM   #43 
     - Very interesting...  Dan   Nov-26-11 08:23 PM   #65 
  - "abandoning their own culture" needs more definition  Ash_F   Nov-26-11 01:33 PM   #61 
  - Ash_F  Lars77   Nov-26-11 07:51 PM   #63 
  - The police stats from just Oslo support Lars' point that rape is done by non-Norwegian  riderinthestorm   Nov-26-11 08:09 PM   #64 
     - No way that is true. Do you have any actual statistics instead of links to stormfronters?  Ash_F   Nov-29-11 04:00 AM   #67 
  - Us vs EU  DonCoquixote   Nov-26-11 09:46 PM   #66 
  - The right wing anywhere. Grrr.  No Elephants   Nov-25-11 08:28 PM   #30 
  - Diclotican and Lars77  Book Lover   Nov-25-11 11:25 PM   #50 
     - Agreed. I just read through the entire thread and here you are, saying exactly what I felt!  riderinthestorm   Nov-26-11 12:35 PM   #58 
 

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