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Reply #3: I had an argument in Paris with my friend Jacques about head scarves. [View All]

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CTyankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-15-11 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I had an argument in Paris with my friend Jacques about head scarves.
this seems to be the French argument: the "people" have a right to self determination, which means they, as a people or a society, can decide what they believe. We are much less "collective" in our definition of "rights" so we believe that individuals "should" prevail over "collective" rights when it comes to such things as how to dress or pray.

I went back and read "The Rights of Man" which preceded the French Revolution and found it a bit ambiguous on the subject. But obviously, the subject has been refined over the years and this is what the French now believe.

THAT is the problem to which you refer...
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  -Praying in Paris streets outlawed Bosonic  Sep-15-11 04:42 PM   #0 
  - Well, they do not have 1st Amendment rights in France.  Cool Logic   Sep-15-11 04:46 PM   #1 
  - I had an argument in Paris with my friend Jacques about head scarves.  CTyankee   Sep-15-11 04:56 PM   #3 
  - What do they do in that place in France where the women don't wear pants?  jberryhill   Sep-15-11 05:01 PM   #6 
  - Hey, don't ask me! I'm just reporting what my buddy Jacques said!  CTyankee   Sep-15-11 07:09 PM   #31 
  - The problem is that France has had such an influx of Muslim immigrants the natives are freaked out.  yardwork   Sep-15-11 05:23 PM   #12 
  - Exactly! I said to Jacques: "This is the price you pay for going into the Magreb in the first place.  CTyankee   Sep-15-11 07:10 PM   #32 
  - That would not be tolerated in New York City...  rfranklin   Sep-15-11 06:11 PM   #23 
  - So I said to jacques! I said they'd get the ACLU on their butts so fast  CTyankee   Sep-15-11 07:11 PM   #33 
  - Actually, they'd get flattened without a second thought. So would  smirkymonkey   Sep-16-11 07:07 AM   #56 
  - The Atlantic Ocean insulated the US from the 18th Century collectivism...  Cool Logic   Sep-15-11 10:44 PM   #43 
  - France's secularism is an embrace of reason.  Lance_Boyle   Sep-16-11 06:34 AM   #54 
     - The US is a secularist state; however...  Cool Logic   Sep-16-11 10:36 AM   #64 
  - That's basically the difference between the Continental and the Anglo-Saxon idea of rights  Spider Jerusalem   Sep-16-11 10:00 PM   #96 
  - I assume that's a joke  dipsydoodle   Sep-15-11 05:20 PM   #11 
  - I disagree that the U.S. Constitution has no meaning outside the U.S.  Hosnon   Sep-15-11 05:42 PM   #18 
  - Check out article 4 of the french declaration of the rights of man and citizen  alp227   Sep-15-11 06:30 PM   #27 
     - Please see my comments above with my friend Jacques in Paris in April.  CTyankee   Sep-15-11 07:13 PM   #34 
     - Im not sure  quakerboy   Sep-16-11 09:28 PM   #94 
        - interesting perspective. banning prayer sounds SO MUCH like thoughtcrime, IMO  alp227   Sep-16-11 10:25 PM   #100 
           - I am mostly with you  quakerboy   Sep-17-11 01:15 AM   #101 
           - Well, they aren't banning prayer--they're banning assembling in large groups in public places  MADem   Sep-18-11 12:11 AM   #106 
  - Are you suggesting that People living outside of the US have no rights...?  Cool Logic   Sep-15-11 10:46 PM   #44 
     - Whilst outside of the US  dipsydoodle   Sep-16-11 04:07 AM   #50 
        - Indeed, they do. However, just because a particular country does not recognize individual rights...  Cool Logic   Sep-16-11 04:26 AM   #51 
           - since when does decl of indep count outside the US?  w0nderer   Sep-16-11 06:48 AM   #55 
           - The ideas embodied in the DOI are products of the Age of Enlightenment...  Cool Logic   Sep-16-11 10:40 AM   #66 
              - This argument is quickly going to head into Philosophy of Law territory.  Hosnon   Sep-16-11 10:44 AM   #68 
                 - That is true; however, my point is that the lack of *recognized* rights...  Cool Logic   Sep-16-11 11:08 AM   #74 
                    - I'm not touching "the source" of such rights with a ten foot pole.  Hosnon   Sep-16-11 11:10 AM   #76 
                    - Yes, but your only support for that argument is the D of I, something that was never even  No Elephants   Sep-16-11 02:57 PM   #81 
           - Bear in mnd, those words were written by a slaveowner and raper.  No Elephants   Sep-16-11 02:54 PM   #80 
  - The First Amendment doesn't give you the right to block the street  tabasco   Sep-15-11 07:02 PM   #30 
  - That is true; however, a well positioned soap box does not block the street.  Cool Logic   Sep-15-11 10:27 PM   #42 
  - How would the 1st amendment apply here?  popsicle ricky   Sep-15-11 07:19 PM   #35 
     - A number of things to add here...........  backtomn   Sep-15-11 07:52 PM   #36 
     - The 1st Amendment has been incorporated by way of the 14th  kelly1mm   Sep-15-11 09:21 PM   #41 
     - +1. nt.  Hosnon   Sep-16-11 10:40 AM   #67 
     - The 14th amendment changed that. Or, so says the SCOTUS.  No Elephants   Sep-16-11 02:59 PM   #82 
     - Actually, what it says is that "Congress shall make no law..."  Cool Logic   Sep-15-11 10:48 PM   #45 
        - But we also have established law around "time, place and manner" as they  CTyankee   Sep-16-11 08:08 AM   #60 
        - I have no quarrel with common sense...  Cool Logic   Sep-16-11 10:50 AM   #70 
        - "Congress" has been interpreted to mean the federal government.  Hosnon   Sep-16-11 10:40 AM   #65 
        - Nevertheless, the 1st Amendment has not been re-written. It says what it says.  Cool Logic   Sep-16-11 10:48 AM   #69 
           - It says what it says but the SCOTUS has interpreted it.  Hosnon   Sep-16-11 10:55 AM   #71 
           - With Plessy v. Ferguson, the SCOTUS upheld the constitutionality  Cool Logic   Sep-16-11 11:02 AM   #73 
              - The SCOTUS isn't infallible, if that's your point.  Hosnon   Sep-16-11 11:08 AM   #75 
           - SCOTUS says the 14th made certain rights in the bill of rights as applicable  No Elephants   Sep-16-11 03:04 PM   #84 
        - You left out some critical words.  No Elephants   Sep-16-11 03:01 PM   #83 
  - I wonder what will happen with all those (good friday?) Catholic parades around easter.  uppityperson   Sep-15-11 04:47 PM   #2 
  - well, technically, that's not praying  Confusious   Sep-15-11 04:56 PM   #4 
     - Easter processional, led by a priest, with people walking behind with palm leaves, etc?  uppityperson   Sep-15-11 05:59 PM   #20 
        - Yea, That would be it. nt  Confusious   Sep-16-11 03:19 PM   #87 
  - The "principles of secularism"  LARED   Sep-15-11 04:57 PM   #5 
  - Closets are for praying, not for gays  izquierdista   Sep-15-11 05:01 PM   #7 
  - It may not tell Muslims the same thing that it tells "us," though. Or Buddhists. Or...well, you  No Elephants   Sep-16-11 03:07 PM   #85 
  - how Graham Greene of Sarko...  MisterP   Sep-15-11 05:13 PM   #8 
  - This is asking for trouble. And will polarize the populace.  Metta   Sep-15-11 05:15 PM   #9 
  - I could get behind that  Bragi   Sep-15-11 05:18 PM   #10 
  - Does that include the public oaths which include the word "god"  dixiegrrrrl   Sep-15-11 05:30 PM   #15 
  - Yeah that would be great too.  progressoid   Sep-15-11 05:33 PM   #16 
  - great point  fascisthunter   Sep-15-11 05:39 PM   #17 
  - Feh. I'm indifferent to that. It isn't "praying". /nt  Bragi   Sep-16-11 04:47 AM   #52 
  - I admit that our lives are much easier and much more convenient  LanternWaste   Sep-16-11 07:14 AM   #57 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-16-11 07:53 AM   #59 
  - Why should I have to listen to Republican speeches? I hate what they're saying!  chrisa   Sep-16-11 07:36 AM   #58 
  - I can't make up my mind on this.  Wait Wut   Sep-15-11 05:24 PM   #13 
  - from the article- it would appear that these prayers block streets and sidewalks  RyanPsych   Sep-15-11 06:43 PM   #28 
     - Thanks.  Wait Wut   Sep-15-11 06:52 PM   #29 
  - A planet with no religion would be my perfect place.  sarcasmo   Sep-15-11 05:27 PM   #14 
  - I wonder if they'd know I was praying?  saras   Sep-15-11 05:45 PM   #19 
  - Time to bring back the guillotine.  TexasProgresive   Sep-15-11 06:01 PM   #21 
  - Procession de la Sanch, during "Holy Week", does this count?  uppityperson   Sep-15-11 06:08 PM   #22 
  - Eeek!  Bosonic   Sep-15-11 06:19 PM   #25 
  - targeting one religious group...  fascisthunter   Sep-15-11 06:11 PM   #24 
  - well, this law targets ANY religious person who prays in public  alp227   Sep-15-11 06:29 PM   #26 
     - it is stupid... it effects everyone  fascisthunter   Sep-15-11 08:37 PM   #38 
  - For those who have not been there when this goes on...  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-15-11 08:31 PM   #37 
  - Then why not a law against street blocking? And why the verbiage about France being a secular state  No Elephants   Sep-16-11 03:13 PM   #86 
     - Good question...and I do not know enough about current French law to answer you  ProgressiveProfessor   Sep-16-11 06:02 PM   #88 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Sep-15-11 08:56 PM   #39 
  - Their regularly praying in public is passive aggression. Those who do this want  snagglepuss   Sep-15-11 09:02 PM   #40 
  - Try praying in the road here. Any kind of road, any kind of prayer.  sudopod   Sep-15-11 11:29 PM   #46 
  - Good. "And when you pray, go into a closet..."  Duer 157099   Sep-15-11 11:42 PM   #47 
  - What a stupid law.  Starbucks Anarchist   Sep-16-11 01:03 AM   #48 
  - So you think it's okay  leftynyc   Sep-16-11 10:28 AM   #63 
     - Of course not, but the law is written much more broadly.  Starbucks Anarchist   Sep-16-11 02:35 PM   #79 
     - gotta link?  reorg   Sep-16-11 06:24 PM   #89 
     - how about a law re: obstructing traffic/et al? Would make more sense  The Straight Story   Sep-16-11 06:25 PM   #90 
        - well, that's what this ordinance appears to be all about  reorg   Sep-16-11 06:56 PM   #92 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Sep-16-11 03:19 AM   #49 
  - Praying should be ok, blocking traffic is an offense  JustABozoOnThisBus   Sep-16-11 05:50 AM   #53 
  - Actually, it sounds like praying is a-ok. You just can't prostrate yourself all over the place...  Honeycombe8   Sep-16-11 10:07 PM   #97 
  - Stupid hateful law.  harun   Sep-16-11 10:07 AM   #61 
  - Look at all those people wasting valuable time, really add it up..  snooper2   Sep-16-11 10:26 AM   #62 
  - I LOVE France. It might be time to move there.  NoodleyAppendage   Sep-16-11 10:58 AM   #72 
  - The French work fewer hours than Americans do. They have universal health care.  Honeycombe8   Sep-16-11 10:10 PM   #98 
  - Same here.  krabigirl   Sep-18-11 01:11 AM   #108 
  - I don't understand. Is the law saying I can't kneel down in the middle of the street to pray ...  GOTV   Sep-16-11 12:05 PM   #77 
  - Is that France or the Middle East?  Ter   Sep-16-11 12:30 PM   #78 
  - Its pretty damn ridiculous to say the least...  and-justice-for-all   Sep-17-11 11:53 PM   #105 
  - Mon Dieu  War Horse   Sep-16-11 06:45 PM   #91 
  - Remember Anders Breivik?  moondust   Sep-16-11 07:17 PM   #93 
  - I'd be more worried about people pissing in the streets.  Spider Jerusalem   Sep-16-11 09:52 PM   #95 
  - I'm sure there are laws against that, too. At least I hope so! nt  Honeycombe8   Sep-16-11 10:11 PM   #99 
     - You've clearly never been to Paris :-/  Spider Jerusalem   Sep-17-11 08:40 AM   #102 
        - Now, now. Be nice. nt  Honeycombe8   Sep-17-11 08:59 AM   #103 
        - Seriously--a more dog-shit covered city I've never seen. nt  msanthrope   Sep-18-11 12:19 AM   #107 
  - I can see why...  and-justice-for-all   Sep-17-11 11:42 PM   #104 
  - Matthew 6:6  BiggJawn   Sep-18-11 01:52 PM   #109 

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