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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-28-11 12:22 PM
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23. Poignantly symbolic that the country who 'invented' democracy has
Edited on Tue Jun-28-11 01:01 PM by Dover
found itself again, 2400 years later, in the crucible of social & governmental chaos, stirring up the sediment of corruption that has been accumulating at the bottom since the inception of the democratic experiment.

Of course, "democracy" and government FOR the PEOPLE and BY the PEOPLE was, at it root beginnings,
not quite so inclusive as it sounded. In fact the word "demokratia" is a bit ambiguous.

All citizens of Athens were required to vote on any new law that the body of 500 citizens created. One man, one vote, majority ruled. However, women, children, and slaves were not citizens, and thus could not vote. And it seems that basic exclusivity is STILL at the root of the problem. So what will we create in its stead?

A nice little article about all this "power to the people" stuff:

The Democratic Experiment

... The democratic system was not, of course, without internal critics, and when Athens had been weakened by the catastrophic Peloponnesian War (431-404) these critics got their chance to translate word into deed. In 411 and again in 404 Athenian oligarchs led counter-revolutions that replaced democracy with extreme oligarchy.

There is a great deal of corruption in our own system of government here in the U.S., beginning with the fundamental issue of the fallibility and corruptability of our high tech voting systems.
Add to that the money-in-politics issue which pretty much assures that the richest have the most influence, the exclusivity of a two party stranglehold, etc. Etc. ETC. and it seems our own "democratic" government only faintly resembles the representative government outlined in both our Constitution and Bill of Rights. So what now? It's one thing to tear down a broken system.
It's quite another to create and implement a new type of governance that reflects who we are now - our values, our needs, our moment in time, our vision of the future, etc.

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  -Athens in chaos as new cuts debated Bragi  Jun-28-11 09:10 AM   #0 
  - Exact details of the proposed austrity measures are here  dipsydoodle   Jun-28-11 09:55 AM   #1 
  - Yep, bankers and bond holders are the big winners /nt  Bragi   Jun-28-11 10:02 AM   #3 
  - there was a time when democratic policiticians were against such austerity and corporate rip offs nt  msongs   Jun-28-11 09:57 AM   #2 
  - True, but FDR has been gone for a long time /nt  Bragi   Jun-28-11 10:22 AM   #8 
     - FDR not the last Democrat to espouse those views. However, the number sure has dwindled.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:18 AM   #52 
  - I don't know why they're called austerity. They need to be called robbery.  plumbob   Jun-28-11 10:06 AM   #4 
  - this is the same policy that Reagan did to Central & South's  StarsInHerHair   Jun-28-11 06:59 PM   #42 
  - Austerity, robbery, avoiding global economic collapse, Wall Street bailout.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:20 AM   #53 
  - Don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the greeks  WatsonT   Jun-28-11 10:09 AM   #5 
  - Sure, the bankers and the billionaires are victims  Bragi   Jun-28-11 10:12 AM   #6 
  - Look in to it  WatsonT   Jun-28-11 02:39 PM   #31 
  - Your article makes my point!  Bragi   Jun-28-11 03:00 PM   #34 
  - It seemed to be most everyone  WatsonT   Jun-28-11 03:06 PM   #35 
     - Some do; some don't.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:28 AM   #56 
     - yeah, so all Greeks  newspeak   Jul-01-11 11:49 AM   #80 
  - Look into U.S. tax evasion, esp. underreported and unreported income.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:35 AM   #60 
     - It exists, what's your point?  WatsonT   Jun-29-11 10:07 AM   #67 
        - Our own government says we do very well at it.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 10:10 AM   #70 
  - ignore the W  StarsInHerHair   Jun-28-11 06:56 PM   #41 
     - What fun would that be?  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:29 AM   #57 
        - well........  StarsInHerHair   Jun-30-11 06:53 PM   #78 
  - Just remember that cavalier attitude when your neck is on the block. nt  bemildred   Jun-28-11 10:16 AM   #7 
  - I don't lie about my income  WatsonT   Jun-28-11 02:39 PM   #32 
     - Yes, but that will not get the bridge you drive over most often repaired or rebuilt.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:50 AM   #62 
        - We're talking about greece here  WatsonT   Jun-29-11 10:08 AM   #68 
           - No, in the post to which I responded, you were talking about yourself.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 10:16 AM   #71 
              - We are not infamous for not paying our taxes  WatsonT   Jun-29-11 11:12 AM   #76 
  - Actually that is not true  Harmony Blue   Jun-28-11 10:30 AM   #10 
  - Tax evasion at all levels more likely  dipsydoodle   Jun-28-11 11:08 AM   #15 
  - It isn't all levels though  Harmony Blue   Jun-28-11 12:38 PM   #26 
  - Those whose taxes are deducted from their pay don't and can't cheat!  JDPriestly   Jun-28-11 01:21 PM   #29 
  - Actually it is  WatsonT   Jun-28-11 02:41 PM   #33 
  - Actually, it isn't. Your source says it was a "significant" reason for the collapse, not the sole  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:53 AM   #63 
     - Think about what you're saying for a moment  WatsonT   Jun-29-11 10:09 AM   #69 
        - Inasmuch as I never said anything like that, I'll let the straw man think about it.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 10:19 AM   #72 
           - So not paying taxes does cause financial woes for a nation?  WatsonT   Jun-29-11 11:11 AM   #75 
  - What led to the most recent global economic crisis was fraud at every level of  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:33 AM   #59 
  - As if the U.S. were all that different.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:24 AM   #54 
  - The EU is playing hardball: No austerity measures; no bailout.  FLPanhandle   Jun-28-11 10:27 AM   #9 
  - Wrong...  Imajika   Jun-28-11 10:34 AM   #11 
  - Maybe.  FLPanhandle   Jun-28-11 10:46 AM   #12 
  - Nah, the outcome is not really in doubt...  Imajika   Jun-28-11 10:53 AM   #13 
     - I agree the markets are the best indicators  FLPanhandle   Jun-28-11 11:06 AM   #14 
        - On this we fully agree...  Imajika   Jun-28-11 11:15 AM   #16 
  - Greek "socialist" party ....???  defendandprotect   Jun-28-11 11:33 AM   #18 
     - What is your confusion?  Imajika   Jun-28-11 11:50 AM   #20 
        - And the "socialists" are pushing austerity?  defendandprotect   Jun-28-11 04:01 PM   #36 
           - Yes, the socialists are pushing austerity...  Imajika   Jun-28-11 05:29 PM   #38 
           - SINOs dnp SINOs...........  socialist_n_TN   Jun-28-11 06:37 PM   #40 
              - Thank you -- !!! And I was obviously asking because I am not that familiar  defendandprotect   Jun-28-11 09:36 PM   #46 
              - I doubt this thread will help you become familiar. It abounds with "truthiness."  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:47 AM   #61 
                 - Obviously, I need to ....  defendandprotect   Jun-30-11 12:29 AM   #77 
              - One can always say a socialist party isn't socialist enough...  Imajika   Jun-29-11 09:08 AM   #51 
                 - Anybody who calls themself a "socialist" and  socialist_n_TN   Jun-29-11 09:28 AM   #55 
  - We need to move on to a Resource-based economy  simonmagnus   Jun-28-11 12:13 PM   #22 
     - We can no longer burn fossil fuels .... mining/fraking -- mountain top removal ....  defendandprotect   Jun-28-11 09:39 PM   #47 
  - Interesting post ...  defendandprotect   Jun-28-11 11:32 AM   #17 
  - Change will come when  MattSh   Jun-28-11 12:12 PM   #21 
  - Think it will come when the public begins to understand Global Warming and oil industry insanity ...  defendandprotect   Jun-28-11 09:42 PM   #48 
  - Our size and other things mitigate against us, as does some ingrained  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 09:56 AM   #64 
  - Why not just forget  sulphurdunn   Jun-28-11 11:41 AM   #19 
  - That would be called "default" and it is exactly the thing  Fool Count   Jun-28-11 04:47 PM   #37 
     - That's exactly what Argentina did in 2002  sulphurdunn   Jun-28-11 06:05 PM   #39 
     - That is true that Argentina was able to renegotiate the  Fool Count   Jun-28-11 09:18 PM   #45 
        - Debt forgiveness is not always part of restructuring. Sometimes, it's as simple as extending the .  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 10:27 AM   #73 
     - You cannot restructure debt without the lenders' consent, but nations can agree  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 10:00 AM   #65 
  - Poignantly symbolic that the country who 'invented' democracy has  Dover   Jun-28-11 12:22 PM   #23 
  - Wasn't there a strong attack on their democracy in ... 70's... 80's...  defendandprotect   Jun-28-11 10:14 PM   #49 
  - the Greeks have riots over  melm00se   Jun-28-11 12:29 PM   #24 
  - If that were our biggest problem, I'd be dancing in the streets.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 10:06 AM   #66 
  - The Greeks should say "fuck you" to the bankers and bond holders, refuse to adopt  totodeinhere   Jun-28-11 12:37 PM   #25 
  - Well for one...  CJvR   Jun-28-11 01:02 PM   #28 
     - That's the theory  gmpierce   Jun-28-11 07:39 PM   #43 
        - Well said and correct procedure to follow with predatory lenders.  plumbob   Jun-28-11 08:36 PM   #44 
        - Iceland was a bit different.  CJvR   Jun-29-11 08:24 AM   #50 
  - Does anyone know a source of live coverage of Greece online? thanks. n/t  ellenrr   Jun-28-11 12:41 PM   #27 
  - Whenever those "youths" wearing masks  arikara   Jun-28-11 01:51 PM   #30 
  - Good point. Wouldn't be the first time.  No Elephants   Jun-29-11 10:42 AM   #74 
  - Fuck the Bankers. Power to the workers. eom.  Hotler   Jun-29-11 09:29 AM   #58 
  - kr  defendandprotect   Jun-30-11 09:44 PM   #79 

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