|
Then how do you explain what is happening in China? They went from an economic system mainly based on Marxism to an economic system mainly based on capitalism. It has been an oligarchy in both cases. Now there is a growing middle class in China and the poor are even seeing some benefits of the growing wealth of society. The standard of living is rising, and with it expectations of wages and treatment.
I was using "rich" as a relative term. As in, the US is one of the richest nations on Earth. Indeed, all of the wealthiest nations have a capitalist-socialist mixed system. The poor of America are much "wealtheier" than the poor of most other nations. Our standards of living and our standards of poverty are very high compared to others because of this.
Pure capitalism, which doesn't exist, would have much greater inequalities. But I was referring to mixed systems.
|
| -'I'm a Marxist:' Dalai Lama |
demoleft |
May-20-10 07:25 PM |
#0 |
-
Wow - good for him! |
marylanddem |
May-20-10 07:34 PM |
#1 |
 -
So this is a Marxist board? Why didn't anyone tell me? |
Alhena |
May-21-10 12:00 AM |
#43 |
-
True Marxism has never been tried |
slay |
May-21-10 03:20 AM |
#66 |
 -
Yes, because verily there is no better laboratory for what will work in the real world |
Warren DeMontague |
May-21-10 03:31 AM |
#69 |
  -
Go ahead - enjoy capitalism - right up until it destroys the planet |
slay |
May-21-10 03:32 AM |
#70 |
   -
That would be a shame, since I was getting awfully fond of the Planet Genius. |
Warren DeMontague |
May-21-10 03:36 AM |
#71 |
    -
If you don't understant it, then how can you say it wouldn't work? |
Javaman |
May-21-10 11:06 AM |
#102 |
    -
For the same reason true capitalism has never been tried...? |
LanternWaste |
May-21-10 02:17 PM |
#140 |
   -
Excellent pic! nt |
valerief |
May-21-10 12:35 PM |
#124 |
  -
Good thing no one said community colleges are a laboratory for what works in the real world, |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 10:08 AM |
#82 |
 -
True Marxism is practiced everyday |
BOG PERSON |
May-21-10 12:45 PM |
#129 |
 -
It is also important to remember that Marx & Engels wrote |
Jackpine Radical |
May-21-10 05:06 PM |
#148 |
  -
How did Marcuse advance anyone's understanding about anything? |
BOG PERSON |
May-21-10 05:46 PM |
#149 |
   -
I think he was a voice for humane values |
Jackpine Radical |
May-22-10 09:39 AM |
#192 |
  -
Also, Marx didn't envision his political system |
socialist_n_TN |
May-22-10 10:11 AM |
#193 |
 -
There goes his invitations to the White House |
hollowdweller |
May-21-10 08:54 PM |
#163 |
-
Gives 'em something to do, in the dorm lounge. |
Warren DeMontague |
May-21-10 03:29 AM |
#68 |
-
Oh, so only your opinion counts? Got it. e-posturer indeed. |
NoSheep |
May-21-10 09:32 AM |
#76 |
 -
If I thought it was a genuinely held and informed opinion ... |
Alhena |
May-21-10 10:46 AM |
#96 |
-
You haven't lived it...not even in your mind. You admit that. Then why not just hush? |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 01:50 AM |
#175 |
-
fuck it. i realize in retrospect that i don't really give a shit. n/t |
Soylent Brice |
May-21-10 12:23 PM |
#122 |
-
Deleted message |
Name removed |
May-21-10 12:36 PM |
#125 |
 -
Non-Marxist = Falwellite, gotcha |
Alhena |
May-21-10 01:32 PM |
#134 |
-
In classic style your comment implies that Marxism must be contagious... |
JackRiddler |
May-21-10 02:52 PM |
#143 |
-
Your response embodies the increasing sardonic posts |
Maraya1969 |
May-21-10 02:57 PM |
#144 |
-
"didn't pass the test of history" ?? |
lstrether |
May-22-10 06:31 PM |
#200 |
-
Why the personal attacks? The poster just likes an alternative economic system. nt |
ZombieHorde |
May-22-10 06:37 PM |
#201 |
-
Says the guy making a bundle for speaking |
FLPanhandle |
May-20-10 07:34 PM |
#2 |
 -
! and hanging out with Richard Gere & co! nt |
flamingdem |
May-20-10 09:39 PM |
#13 |
 -
Isn't Marxism more about how and for what/whom money and other resources are used? |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 10:16 AM |
#85 |
-
It's okay to be a marxist... |
Imajika |
May-20-10 07:36 PM |
#3 |
 -
Or have to live in a Marxist country |
Freddie Stubbs |
May-20-10 08:50 PM |
#8 |
  -
and can make a pile of money and live in 5 star hotels. |
FLPanhandle |
May-20-10 09:00 PM |
#10 |
   -
kinda like Sarah Palin... nt |
caledesi |
May-20-10 09:19 PM |
#12 |
    -
Wow... throwing the Dalai Lama under the bus... |
liberation |
May-20-10 10:36 PM |
#22 |
   -
Dalai Lama, the Pope, Sarah Palin, Pat Robertson..... what's the dif? |
AlbertCat |
May-20-10 11:23 PM |
#30 |
    -
Thanks for not continuing on with about 350 members of congress, too much of the supreme court, and |
pundaint |
May-20-10 11:31 PM |
#32 |
    -
Thanks for proving my point... |
liberation |
May-20-10 11:32 PM |
#33 |
    -
The Dalai Lama would be the first to tell you had weilds no power. |
RaleighNCDUer |
May-21-10 10:48 AM |
#97 |
    -
There's nothing supernatural about the reincarnation of great souls |
ChangoLoa |
May-21-10 01:58 PM |
#137 |
   -
I like him alot but he doesn't crimp on his own comforts. Also, I |
roguevalley |
May-20-10 11:48 PM |
#39 |
    -
cubans are more literate and live longer than americans |
reggie the dog |
May-21-10 05:49 AM |
#73 |
    -
I don't think he said "I am a Marxist country". |
NoSheep |
May-21-10 09:47 AM |
#80 |
    -
Huh! Cause I have yet to see a truly Marxist country. Or a truly capitalist, either. |
laughingliberal |
May-21-10 01:41 PM |
#135 |
   -
no shit! your post had me lmao! n/t |
AgadorSparticus |
May-21-10 01:48 AM |
#61 |
   -
Correction... |
Javaman |
May-21-10 11:09 AM |
#103 |
   -
What do you REALLY know about the Dalai Lama's personal lifestyle, lol? |
kestrel91316 |
May-21-10 10:11 AM |
#83 |
  -
Well, let's see... |
FLPanhandle |
May-21-10 11:17 AM |
#110 |
  -
YOU! |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 02:04 AM |
#181 |
  -
Do pray tell what Marxist countries are out there? |
liberation |
May-20-10 10:38 PM |
#23 |
   -
Cuba |
Freddie Stubbs |
May-21-10 09:09 AM |
#74 |
  -
Really? |
liberation |
May-21-10 05:47 PM |
#150 |
  -
Marx called for workers to unite |
reggie the dog |
May-21-10 05:48 AM |
#72 |
 -
Marx also called for the state to own the means of production |
Freddie Stubbs |
May-21-10 09:09 AM |
#75 |
 -
As opposed to bail outs? |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 10:25 AM |
#88 |
 -
In Communist Manifesto |
reggie the dog |
May-21-10 02:08 PM |
#139 |
 -
Marxism was inspired by an anthropological paper on the Huron nation in 1778, a truly Communist |
sam sarrha |
May-20-10 11:02 PM |
#26 |
  -
Huron Nation? |
Jkid |
May-21-10 04:56 PM |
#147 |
  -
It also has roots in the Diggers that were in England after their civil war |
martymar64 |
May-21-10 08:11 PM |
#162 |
 -
+1000 |
proteus_lives |
May-21-10 12:02 AM |
#44 |
-
That's the funniest thing I've read all week. Nazi lover is more like it. |
Catherina |
May-20-10 08:10 PM |
#4 |
 -
how come.... |
unkachuck |
May-20-10 08:29 PM |
#6 |
  -
..... |
ingac70 |
May-20-10 08:36 PM |
#7 |
   -
I KNEW the Pope was a Nazi, too! nt |
valerief |
May-21-10 12:38 PM |
#126 |
  -
To be fair |
daleo |
May-20-10 09:08 PM |
#11 |
  -
They were "spiritual" in the sense of superstitious. I don't consider that |
JDPriestly |
May-20-10 09:48 PM |
#14 |
 -
I agree he's no progressive. |
David__77 |
May-20-10 10:06 PM |
#17 |
 -
Deleted message |
Name removed |
May-20-10 10:29 PM |
#20 |
  -
That's rather a weak retort to historical fact |
Catherina |
May-20-10 11:35 PM |
#35 |
 -
Here are some more links... |
GReedDiamond |
May-21-10 01:05 AM |
#55 |
  -
I don't know what is happening but among other things it has turned into |
grantcart |
May-21-10 01:16 AM |
#56 |
   -
The "dalai lama is a nazi" meme... |
GReedDiamond |
May-21-10 01:22 AM |
# |
  -
thanks |
grantcart |
May-21-10 02:03 AM |
#64 |
  -
China has paid posters all over the internet whose sole job is slandering |
kestrel91316 |
May-21-10 10:16 AM |
#84 |
  -
Thanks. I understand totally that you are not speaking to whether the DL is a Nazi or not, |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 10:37 AM |
#94 |
  -
See post 98, It's not a weird religious/right-wing political meme |
Catherina |
May-21-10 12:43 PM |
#128 |
  -
Weak and untruthful. Here's another link for you. National Geography |
Catherina |
May-21-10 10:51 AM |
#98 |
 -
Christina Rosetti makes the following claims... |
GReedDiamond |
May-21-10 11:50 AM |
#116 |
 -
Xcuse me. You introduced her to this conversation, not I. |
Catherina |
May-21-10 01:10 PM |
#132 |
 -
Technically, posting some people's opinion trying to pass them as fact is also not very persuasive |
liberation |
May-21-10 06:16 PM |
#156 |
 -
Catherina, you were defending Christina Rosetti... |
GReedDiamond |
May-21-10 10:00 PM |
#165 |
 -
"after I (GReedD) posted the link to her site". Read what you wrote again |
Catherina |
May-21-10 11:03 PM |
#166 |
 -
I realize that I posted the link to... |
GReedDiamond |
May-21-10 11:11 PM |
#167 |
 -
Try to stick to the topic. The topic is the Dalai Lama, not Christina Rosetti |
Catherina |
May-21-10 11:47 PM |
#168 |
 -
Thanks for ordering me to do whatever it is you... |
GReedDiamond |
May-21-10 11:55 PM |
#169 |
 -
If you can't stick to the topic, please do. You're most welcome n/t |
Catherina |
May-22-10 12:03 AM |
#170 |
 -
Thanks for not making your point...Good Night to You, Catherina - nt |
GReedDiamond |
May-22-10 12:09 AM |
#171 |
 -
Don't go to bed mad... lol n/t |
Catherina |
May-22-10 12:29 AM |
#172 |
 -
I'm always mad at what's going on... |
GReedDiamond |
May-22-10 12:39 AM |
#173 |
 -
Rupert Murdoch owns the History Channel. n/t |
NoSheep |
May-21-10 09:36 AM |
#77 |
 -
Thanks. I didn't know that. Crap! |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 10:56 AM |
#100 |
 -
one of his tutors was a nazi, a mountain climber who was a nazi. |
roguevalley |
May-20-10 11:50 PM |
#40 |
-
I read the guy's book. I don't think he had a political agenda. I think he was a climber trying to |
NoSheep |
May-21-10 09:50 AM |
#81 |
 -
No, that's the part of the myth. Harrer was an SS member in the 30s |
Catherina |
May-21-10 01:30 PM |
#133 |
-
That does not impugn the Dalai Lama, does it? |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 01:53 AM |
#176 |
-
Deleted message |
Name removed |
May-22-10 02:15 AM |
#182 |
-
I actually have met him, Heinrich Harrer... he is a wonderful person |
kgnu_fan |
May-22-10 06:50 AM |
#187 |
-
So am I. knr nt |
Union Yes |
May-20-10 08:24 PM |
#5 |
-
I think anyone with half a brain would.. |
Francisco |
May-20-10 08:59 PM |
#9 |
 -
Isn't that the truth. |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 02:16 AM |
#183 |
 -
Yes, people really need to read Marx then discuss. Too much ignorance here |
kgnu_fan |
May-22-10 07:04 AM |
#189 |
-
So the ultimate embodiment of spirituality is also the opiate of the masses and a marxist capitalist |
Ozymanithrax |
May-20-10 09:53 PM |
#15 |
-
so, the Grateful Dead and the Nazi SS got their skull symbol |
wial |
May-20-10 10:05 PM |
#16 |
 -
Same way the human vagina is responsible for the Edsel. |
Warren DeMontague |
May-21-10 03:26 AM |
#67 |
-
What ever happened to blaming the Bossa Nova or putting the blame on Mame (boys)? |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 11:15 AM |
#108 |
-
Politics is local.... nt |
RollWithIt |
May-20-10 10:06 PM |
#18 |
 -
and monks should stay away from politics |
grantcart |
May-20-10 10:28 PM |
#19 |
-
You don't konw much about Buddhism, do you... too bad ... |
ProudDad |
May-20-10 10:30 PM |
#21 |
-
Buddhism is based on Equanimity, ".May all beings live in Equanimity, free of the Grasping, Anger, |
sam sarrha |
May-20-10 11:22 PM |
#29 |
-
Yeah, communism/marxism has a much better track-record. |
proteus_lives |
May-21-10 12:04 AM |
#45 |
-
I read the collected works of Marx at the undergraduate level and I was |
grantcart |
May-21-10 01:01 AM |
#54 |
-
Crickets. Not being a Buddhist I've got a little side action on the length of time |
cliffordu |
May-21-10 01:20 AM |
#57 |
-
Very impressive qualifications to post an opinion on what monks should do. |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 10:53 AM |
#99 |
-
The role of monks differs in the different traditions |
grantcart |
May-21-10 03:21 PM |
#145 |
-
I see the Dalai Lama haters are out! |
Odin2005 |
May-20-10 10:52 PM |
#24 |
 -
it's easy if one hates everything.. that is Cynicism, conclusion comes first..Premise follows, |
sam sarrha |
May-20-10 11:16 PM |
#27 |
 -
Seriously. |
EFerrari |
May-20-10 11:18 PM |
#28 |
 -
China has a cadre of people paid to slander the Dalai Lama on the internet. |
kestrel91316 |
May-21-10 10:17 AM |
#86 |
  -
I don't think the ones here are paid, and if they are China should ask for their money back |
liberation |
May-21-10 06:34 PM |
#157 |
 -
It's DU. |
AngryOldDem |
May-22-10 11:38 AM |
#195 |
-
And I'm a duck who knows how to use a computer! |
Better Believe It |
May-20-10 10:58 PM |
#25 |
-
The Dalai Lama has little understanding... |
MellowDem |
May-20-10 11:30 PM |
#31 |
 -
Speaking of little understanding... |
liberation |
May-20-10 11:35 PM |
#36 |
  -
One-liner followed by nothing. Hit and run cowardice. |
MellowDem |
May-21-10 12:07 AM |
#46 |
 -
Capitalism is about efficiency? |
go west young man |
May-21-10 12:49 AM |
#53 |
  -
You can say the same about Marxism... |
MellowDem |
May-21-10 01:22 AM |
#58 |
 -
Capitalism doesn't "make us all rich". ROFLMFAO. It makes a few |
kestrel91316 |
May-21-10 10:26 AM |
#89 |
  -
Really? |
MellowDem |
May-21-10 11:13 AM |
#107 |
 -
When did the Chinese have a system "based on Marxism"? |
ProudDad |
May-23-10 01:52 PM |
#205 |
 -
When was capitalism every *really* about making us *all* rich? |
DesertDiamond |
May-21-10 12:02 PM |
#118 |
-
Like I said... |
MellowDem |
May-21-10 12:51 PM |
#131 |
-
Capitalism doesn't HAVE to be only about profits. |
Lagomorph |
May-20-10 11:33 PM |
#34 |
 -
Huh, so capitalism doesn't have to be about its only reason to exist? |
liberation |
May-20-10 11:37 PM |
#37 |
  -
Only if you are literal... |
Lagomorph |
May-21-10 01:54 AM |
#63 |
 -
Right, because doublethink is soooo much more "enlightened" |
liberation |
May-21-10 05:51 PM |
#152 |
 -
It doesn't? |
Quantess |
May-20-10 11:47 PM |
#38 |
 -
We may now live in a plutonomy, rather than in a capitalist society. |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 11:10 AM |
#105 |
-
From this thread it looks like President Obama and the Dalai Lama have something in common |
Hippo_Tron |
May-20-10 11:52 PM |
#41 |
 -
LOL! Mind-boggling ain't it? |
Hardrada |
May-20-10 11:58 PM |
#42 |
 -
Marxist Muslin Nazis. |
truthisfreedom |
May-21-10 12:13 AM |
#47 |
 -
Good one. |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 11:20 AM |
#111 |
 -
incredible indeed |
fascisthunter |
May-21-10 12:19 PM |
#120 |
-
Um, not good for him, marxism is flawed and oversimplified |
usregimechange |
May-21-10 12:15 AM |
#48 |
 -
Unlike capitalism? |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 11:21 AM |
#112 |
-
"I don't believe in 'isms' " -- Ferris Bueller |
liberation |
May-21-10 05:55 PM |
#153 |
-
I want to have cocktails with this guy. n/t |
bitchkitty |
May-21-10 12:23 AM |
#49 |
-
Something about this seems mildly ironic... hmm just cant seem to put my finger on it... |
D23MIURG23 |
May-21-10 12:27 AM |
#50 |
-
Huh? |
FightingBobsghost |
May-21-10 12:33 AM |
#51 |
 -
Spewed! |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 12:27 PM |
#123 |
-
Isn't he whatever label the reporter asks him to be? |
HuckleB |
May-21-10 12:36 AM |
#52 |
-
I'm impressed with his books and teachings. |
superconnected |
May-21-10 01:24 AM |
#59 |
 -
You're just not reading him right. I'm sure it's all in there somewhere....... |
kestrel91316 |
May-21-10 10:29 AM |
#90 |
-
Yeah, I suppose crazy people who would invent anything just to be malicious |
superconnected |
May-21-10 02:47 PM |
#141 |
-
Apparently, from some of the responses to this thread... projection is not exclusive to the GOP fans |
liberation |
May-21-10 06:00 PM |
#154 |
-
Now you are beginning to understand.... |
kestrel91316 |
May-21-10 09:15 PM |
#164 |
-
He probably just realize that capitalism is struggling to survive n/t |
AlphaCentauri |
May-21-10 01:33 AM |
#60 |
-
i hope marxism shows him |
SwampG8r |
May-21-10 01:54 AM |
#62 |
 -
Can you tell me anything about the lifestyle of a Tibetan living outside the area now controlled by |
NoSheep |
May-21-10 09:45 AM |
#79 |
 -
The Dalai Lama has SLAVES???? Tibet is a theocracy???? |
kestrel91316 |
May-21-10 10:30 AM |
#91 |
  -
Who ARE these people making these inane comments? LOL |
NoSheep |
May-21-10 10:36 AM |
#93 |
 -
Paid Chinese shills - I have seen them get HATEFUL about the Dalai Lama |
kestrel91316 |
May-21-10 11:04 AM |
#101 |
 -
WTF? Seriously. I can't get over what I'm reading here. |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 01:54 AM |
#177 |
 -
Wow. Where are you receiving these transmissions from? |
Ignis |
May-21-10 01:52 PM |
#136 |
-
Interesting |
davidthegnome |
May-21-10 02:20 AM |
#65 |
 -
Plus 1 |
NoSheep |
May-21-10 10:37 AM |
#95 |
-
The Dalai Lama is the person who taught me the emptiness of Buddhism. |
Romulox |
May-21-10 09:44 AM |
#78 |
 -
Isn't emptiness the whole point of Buddhism? nt |
RaleighNCDUer |
May-21-10 11:10 AM |
#104 |
-
And they say that a student who honors his teacher honors himself. |
Romulox |
May-21-10 11:29 AM |
#114 |
-
Apparently the Dalai Lama didn't read Karl Marx's opinion about religion. |
Crowman1979 |
May-21-10 10:23 AM |
#87 |
 -
I'm not sure Buddhism is a religion. It's more a way of life. And it is |
NoSheep |
May-21-10 10:35 AM |
#92 |
 -
That was, of course, written by a man who lived in a culture immersed |
RaleighNCDUer |
May-21-10 11:16 AM |
#109 |
  -
Not a single thought, I'm sure. |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 02:00 AM |
#180 |
 -
I am not normally a betting person, but I'd bet the DL is very familiar with that. |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 12:14 PM |
#119 |
 -
I know atheist buddhists. nt |
ChangoLoa |
May-21-10 01:59 PM |
#138 |
-
Buddhism, by definition, is atheist ;-) |
liberation |
May-21-10 06:04 PM |
#155 |
-
Thank you. |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 01:57 AM |
#179 |
-
They need a clear boss for their universe. |
ChangoLoa |
May-22-10 04:53 PM |
#199 |
-
This Atheist with Buddhist leanings says +1 |
Odin2005 |
May-22-10 08:59 PM |
#203 |
-
As long as he isn't a Stalinist. (nt) |
w4rma |
May-21-10 11:13 AM |
#106 |
-
Isn't that a bit like Lady Gaga saying she's a communist? |
HiFructosePronSyrup |
May-21-10 11:24 AM |
#113 |
 -
Or the right wing saying we're all communists. Lots of outlooks on a name. |
superconnected |
May-21-10 02:49 PM |
#142 |
-
No human is perfect. eom. |
No Elephants |
May-21-10 11:44 AM |
#115 |
-
I knew he was a Marxist |
kentauros |
May-21-10 12:01 PM |
#117 |
-
Oh Oh... ya did it now Dalai Lama... you claimed to be a Marxist!!!!! |
fascisthunter |
May-21-10 12:20 PM |
#121 |
-
Does this dude ever |
femrap |
May-21-10 12:42 PM |
#127 |
 -
Yes. There are women monks. |
leftyladyfrommo |
May-21-10 07:25 PM |
#158 |
  -
Are the women called 'monks' |
femrap |
May-21-10 08:06 PM |
#161 |
 -
I don't think you understand what it is to be a mystic. |
leftyladyfrommo |
May-22-10 05:37 AM |
#185 |
 -
I'd bet the |
femrap |
May-22-10 11:38 AM |
#194 |
 -
No mystical path is comfortable - they are designed to be very uncomfortable |
leftyladyfrommo |
May-22-10 07:12 PM |
#202 |
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I hear he's reincarnated himself a few times, and has been many different people. |
Warren DeMontague |
May-21-10 07:57 PM |
#160 |
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Go Marxism! |
McCamy Taylor |
May-21-10 12:51 PM |
#130 |
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What nonsense |
blindpig |
May-21-10 04:46 PM |
#146 |
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Absolutely true |
BOG PERSON |
May-21-10 05:50 PM |
#151 |
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That quote was really funny. |
Catherina |
May-21-10 07:31 PM |
#159 |
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Wow, that BS post made you just lose a lot of the respect I had for you. |
Odin2005 |
May-22-10 12:51 AM |
#174 |
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Well then... |
blindpig |
May-22-10 07:24 AM |
#190 |
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Have you ever read Marx yet? Capitalism is only one form of economy that will have to progress to |
kgnu_fan |
May-22-10 06:59 AM |
#188 |
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Some, and I am quite familiar with the idea |
blindpig |
May-22-10 07:32 AM |
#191 |
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Experimentation and exploration is the idea Marx left with us |
kgnu_fan |
May-22-10 04:34 PM |
#197 |
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+1 |
NoSheep |
May-23-10 01:38 PM |
#204 |
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The Dalai Lama would laugh his ass off at this entire thread. |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 01:57 AM |
#178 |
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I want to hear from folks in this thread who have met Tibetans. |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 02:19 AM |
#184 |
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First of all, Tibetans tend to be always laughing, joking yet in a quiet way |
kgnu_fan |
May-22-10 06:39 AM |
#186 |
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I was in Nepal in 94. met Tibetans who lived in the Mustang district |
NoSheep |
May-22-10 12:15 PM |
#196 |
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I agree. It is indeed becoming wierder ... |
kgnu_fan |
May-22-10 04:37 PM |
#198 |