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Reply #49: I hope we don't take smartest options off the table before negotiations start [View All]

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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:07 AM
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49. I hope we don't take smartest options off the table before negotiations start
I hope our Democratic majority in Congress doesn't handle the debates on atmospheric CO2 reductions by removing the smartest targets before negotiations even begin, as they did with health care reform.

We need a reduction in current levels of CO2, and have the engineering ingenuity and human resources to do that. In fact, a massive Green Jobs program would be a great way to demonstrate the US' commitment to join the community of nations in preserving as many of Earth's beautiful ecosystems for future generations as we can. That would help President Obama's diplomatic efforts to rebuild international respect for the USA. It would also help our economy because the Green workers would spend their wages.

There may be continued corporate resistance to the new technologies because alternative energy technologies can make individuals, states and businesses less dependent on the giant fossil fuel companies. Decentralized power resources can seem threatening to the giant energy companies that have dominated our industrial growth for decades.

There are three numbers you need to really understand global warming, 275, 390, and 350.

For all of human history until about 200 years ago, our atmosphere contained 275 parts per million of carbon dioxide. Parts per million is simply a way of measuring the concentration of different gases, and means the ratio of the number of carbon dioxide molecules to all of the molecules in the atmosphere. 275 ppm CO2 is a useful amountwithout some CO2 and other greenhouse gases that trap heat in our atmosphere, our planet would be too cold for humans to inhabit.

So we need some carbon in the atmosphere, but the question is how much?

Beginning in the 18th century, humans began to burn coal and gas and oil to produce energy and goods. The amount of carbon in the atmosphere began to rise, at first slowly and now more quickly. Many of the activities we do every day like turning the lights on, cooking food, or heating or cooling our homes rely on energy sources like coal and oil that emit carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases into the atmosphere. We're taking millions of years worth of carbon, stored beneath the earth as fossil fuels, and releasing it into the atmosphere. By nowand this is the second numberthe planet has 390 parts per million CO2 and this number is rising by about 2 parts per million every year.

Scientists are now saying that's too much that number is higher than any time seen in the recorded history of our planet and we're already beginning to see disastrous impacts on people and places all over the world. Glaciers everywhere are melting and disappearing fastand they are a source of drinking water for hundreds of millions of people. Mosquitoes, who like a warmer world, are spreading into lots of new places, and bringing malaria and dengue fever with them. Drought is becoming much more common, making food harder to grow in many places. Sea levels have begun to rise, and scientists warn that they could go up as much as several meters this century. If that happens, many of the world's cities, island nations, and farmland will be underwater. The oceans are growing more acidic because of the CO2 they are absorbing, which makes it harder for animals like corals and clams to build and maintain their shells and skeletons. Coral reefs could start dissolving at an atmospheric CO2 concentration of 450-500 ppm. These impacts are combining to exacerbate conflicts and security issues in already resource-strapped regions.

The Arctic is sending us perhaps the clearest message that climate change is occurring much more rapidly than scientists previously thought. In the summer of 2007, sea ice was roughly 39% below the summer average for 1979-2000, a loss of area equal to nearly five United Kingdoms. Many scientists now believe the Arctic will be completely ice free in the summertime between 2011 and 2015, some 80 years ahead of what scientists had predicted just a few years ago.

<<arctic ice photo>>

Propelled by the news of these accelerating impacts, some of the world's leading climate scientists have now revised the highest safe level of CO2 to 350 parts per million. That's the last number you need to know, and the most important. It's the safety zone for planet earth. As James Hansen of America's National Aeronautics and Space Administration, the first scientist to warn about global warming more than two decades ago, wrote recently, "If humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, paleoclimate evidence and ongoing climate change suggest that CO2 will need to be reduced from its current 385 ppm to at most 350 ppm."
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  -Permanent Arctic Ice Vanishing - Satellite Images Misled Shocked Scientists hatrack  Nov-29-09 12:13 AM   #0 
  - That's why polar bears are becoming endangered species. n/t  totodeinhere   Nov-29-09 12:23 AM   #1 
  - On Inside Washington, Charles Krauthammer just said that the Polar Bears are doing just fine  CreekDog   Nov-29-09 12:30 AM   #4 
     - Why don't we put Kraphammer on an ice floe?  Zoeisright   Nov-29-09 01:15 AM   #7 
     - With a Polar Bear and her cubs...  rasputin1952   Nov-29-09 06:13 AM   #22 
     - Haven't the poor polar bears suffered enough? n/t  3waygeek   Nov-29-09 06:44 AM   #23 
     - LOL...excellent point...  rasputin1952   Nov-29-09 06:50 AM   #24 
     - Yeah, A Hungry One Whose Pissed Off At The World (nt)  Dinger   Nov-29-09 03:30 PM   #87 
     - +1  L0oniX   Nov-29-09 07:37 PM   #101 
     - And Joe Lieberman because, well, he's Joe Lieberman.  tblue   Nov-29-09 12:39 PM   #65 
     - +1  valerief   Nov-29-09 04:29 PM   #94 
     - Polar Bears are eating their young to survive  Ichingcarpenter   Nov-29-09 03:30 AM   #14 
     - I'm guessing the polar bear population in DC remains pretty stable.  BobTheSubgenius   Nov-29-09 03:44 AM   #15 
     - very stable. it's so stable theres still many Dinosaurs there, tho on life support from Corporations  sam sarrha   Nov-29-09 10:58 AM   #44 
     - Provided we can maintain zoos forever.  caseymoz   Nov-29-09 02:02 PM   #73 
     - Sauerkrauthammer is an ass...and an ugly one at that n/t  TK421   Nov-29-09 05:01 PM   #96 
     - Ad hominem attack not necessary.  Beartracks   Nov-29-09 10:05 PM   #116 
        - Fine then....he is a colossal ass  TK421   Nov-29-09 11:25 PM   #123 
        - His looks come from the inside.  The Stranger   Nov-30-09 11:38 AM   #131 
     - If only Krauthammer were the one extinct.  The Stranger   Nov-30-09 11:37 AM   #130 
  - To the Greatest Page with you. (n/t)  area51   Nov-29-09 12:23 AM   #2 
  - Those scientists all went up there with their hair dryers to melt the ice!  villager   Nov-29-09 12:24 AM   #3 
  - It'z a hokes!  The Doctor.   Nov-29-09 12:51 AM   #5 
  - Won't you ECO-FREAKS ever give it a rest??!! Everybody knows this is Al Gore's plan to  bertman   Nov-29-09 01:04 AM   #6 
  - thank Gore, HE, 'invented' the internet!  ShamelessHussy   Nov-29-09 02:01 AM   #12 
  - It's the New World Order! That's why Gore let Shrub win in 2000!  Ghost Dog   Nov-29-09 05:09 AM   #18 
  - Okay. Let's say global warming does not exist.  The Wielding Truth   Nov-29-09 05:53 PM   #99 
     - Fixing the cultures of countries  audas   Nov-29-09 08:20 PM   #106 
     - That is not my point, It is the foolish goal of those who can't see a real answer.  The Wielding Truth   Nov-30-09 10:22 PM   #139 
     - Welcome to DU. When you are here longer you will know how we lean.  The Wielding Truth   Dec-01-09 01:26 PM   #143 
     - Nicely put . . . !!  defendandprotect   Nov-29-09 09:29 PM   #111 
     - Thank you. Doesn't it seem simple that we should work with nature  The Wielding Truth   Nov-30-09 10:24 PM   #140 
     - you are so misguided  ldf   Nov-30-09 08:10 PM   #136 
        - Good point, Greed really does blind so many from long term good.  The Wielding Truth   Nov-30-09 10:07 PM   #138 
  - K&R  DeSwiss   Nov-29-09 01:27 AM   #8 
  - And surprise surprise, the expedition conveniently forgot to bring a camera crew.  Ysabela   Nov-29-09 01:52 AM   #9 
  - Did they?  Hissyspit   Nov-29-09 02:00 AM   #11 
  - Your point?  Hekate   Nov-29-09 03:20 AM   #13 
  - Um, there are things called SATELLITES  Canuckistanian   Nov-29-09 07:27 AM   #26 
  - Sniff...  trumad   Nov-29-09 07:29 AM   #27 
  - This isn't "The Real Housewives of the Arctic Circle"  tinrobot   Nov-29-09 09:31 AM   #34 
  - I thought the article said the scientists were pissed because the satellite photos didn't  bertman   Nov-29-09 09:11 PM   #108 
  - Surprise, surprise, the corporate media conveniently forgot to publish photos  AllyCat   Nov-29-09 10:06 AM   #39 
  - I doubt that any sort of proof would suspend your delusion.  Webster Green   Nov-29-09 11:47 AM   #51 
  - so would you claim this was all a conspiracy... are you feeling ok?  fascisthunter   Nov-29-09 12:12 PM   #57 
  - Dick Barber and the Canadian Ice Service have multiple cameras recording ice aboard these ships  jpak   Nov-29-09 12:17 PM   #59 
  - Apparently, not frequently enough, if the "whole world" did not realize the thinness of this ice.  No Elephants   Nov-30-09 04:09 AM   #128 
  - This is better than photos. Take a look  Quixote1818   Nov-29-09 12:23 PM   #60 
  - They are publishing them in the Geophysical Research Letters this month.  Swede   Nov-29-09 01:28 PM   #69 
  - Don't pee your pants!  cartach   Nov-29-09 01:42 PM   #70 
  - Nothing to see here, move along...  Turborama   Nov-29-09 10:07 PM   #117 
  - Plenty of DUers know the emails prove it's all a hoax, didn't you hear?  Hissyspit   Nov-29-09 01:55 AM   #10 
  - No No No No No that's just not true. There, all better now.  pundaint   Nov-29-09 03:56 AM   #16 
  - Jesus hates the polar bears because they are not christians?  LiberalFighter   Nov-29-09 07:52 AM   #29 
  - But - several DUers have made the point that since "the" model "is" wrong, then so is the data ...  panzerfaust   Nov-29-09 05:01 AM   #17 
  - The world is too big to fail. However its inhabitants are not. nt  TheMadMonk   Nov-29-09 05:28 AM   #19 
     - yea, kiss your ass goodbye as soon as that ice quits driving the Thermal-cline, in the last ice age ...  sam sarrha   Nov-29-09 11:04 AM   #47 
     - We are already contamining space with our debris and nuclear add-ons . . .  defendandprotect   Nov-29-09 09:55 PM   #113 
  - The equilibrium of the Arctic Ice has been messed up for several years now  NecklyTyler   Nov-29-09 05:37 AM   #20 
  - There's a 50 year delay in Global Warming's effects so it is much more than  defendandprotect   Nov-29-09 09:57 PM   #114 
  - K&R  NecklyTyler   Nov-29-09 05:38 AM   #21 
  - This news is very sad.  Torn_Scorned_Ignored   Nov-29-09 07:27 AM   #25 
  - Money to be made with continued warming!!  N_E_1 for Tennis   Nov-29-09 07:36 AM   #28 
  - As long as it's profitable...  dotymed   Nov-29-09 08:31 AM   #30 
  - Not riches for corporate government - it's riches for barons who put the  peacetalksforall   Nov-29-09 09:00 AM   #32 
  - Have fun transporting all that oil over the melting permafrost  kedrys   Nov-29-09 08:48 AM   #31 
  - But wait...That land belongs to Inuits. Guess we'd better kick them out.  GoddessOfGuinness   Nov-29-09 04:30 PM   #95 
  - Why do polar bears need multi-year ice? People drive on single-year lake ice.  FarCenter   Nov-29-09 09:27 AM   #33 
  - glad the news about this is getting out but  wial   Nov-29-09 09:34 AM   #35 
  - Certainly sad and shocking, but what action are you taking?  tinrobot   Nov-29-09 09:40 AM   #36 
  - much more importantly.  wial   Nov-29-09 10:08 AM   #40 
     - We need a shift in consciousness as well, and a new paradigm.  tinrobot   Nov-29-09 11:01 AM   #45 
     - BINGO! +10000 .!!!!  FirstLight   Nov-29-09 11:47 AM   #52 
     - Problem is, only so many people can go back to the land.  tinrobot   Nov-29-09 02:36 PM   #79 
        - YA, I know  FirstLight   Nov-29-09 02:55 PM   #82 
     - The reality is that those practicing such a lifestyle will be successful -- until they're killed.  Zhade   Nov-29-09 10:46 PM   #118 
        - We are building up this sort of lifestyle. For us, it is not about surviving.  FedUpWithIt All   Nov-30-09 12:25 PM   #132 
     - Your post could be a separate thread. It's brilliant.  tblue   Nov-29-09 12:37 PM   #64 
  - Science denial is a mental illness. recd  Union Yes   Nov-29-09 09:59 AM   #37 
  - amen  wial   Nov-29-09 10:55 AM   #43 
  - to deny what a global scientific community peer reviewed  fascisthunter   Nov-29-09 12:05 PM   #56 
     - Remember their names. When society collapses, I WILL NOT HELP THEM.  Zhade   Nov-29-09 10:47 PM   #119 
        - I Will do Worse... I will be pointing my finger their way  fascisthunter   Nov-30-09 03:00 PM   #135 
  - Interview With Dr. Barber  CHIMO   Nov-29-09 10:01 AM   #38 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Nov-29-09 10:34 AM   #41 
  - Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Nov-29-09 10:35 AM   #42 
  - I don't believe the scientists didn't know They Knew  lovuian   Nov-29-09 11:01 AM   #46 
  - I'm sure the polar bears were relieved to hear about the emails, too!  kestrel91316   Nov-29-09 11:06 AM   #48 
  - I hope we don't take smartest options off the table before negotiations start  Overseas   Nov-29-09 11:07 AM   #49 
  - Oh man, absolutely! I hope Obama realizes putting bipartsanship first on this  tblue   Nov-29-09 12:46 PM   #66 
     - Or that Democratic Congressional leaders step forward more boldly  Overseas   Nov-29-09 05:04 PM   #97 
  - I'm gonna make a prediction - you heard it here first:  kestrel91316   Nov-29-09 11:09 AM   #50 
  - lol...yup  fascisthunter   Nov-29-09 11:59 AM   #55 
  - And to bolster their argument they will point to fossil plant life from  RaleighNCDUer   Nov-29-09 12:32 PM   #62 
  - ^This^  XemaSab   Nov-29-09 01:02 PM   #68 
  - Just a hoax  Prophet 451   Nov-29-09 11:53 AM   #53 
  - I believe the fight will become a literal one.  Zhade   Nov-29-09 10:55 PM   #120 
  - It's all a Tree-hugging Conspiracy, sayeth the lobotomized fascists  fascisthunter   Nov-29-09 11:59 AM   #54 
  - You Lie! Climate data has been dumped - dumped I tell ya'!!!1111  jpak   Nov-29-09 12:15 PM   #58 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-29-09 12:26 PM   #61 
  - Just follow the money.  GMA   Nov-29-09 08:15 PM   #105 
  - Deleted message  Name removed   Nov-29-09 10:57 PM   #121 
     - I 2nd your statement  Duppers   Nov-30-09 12:03 AM   #124 
  - I'm tired of pro-biz, anti-science repubs. And if they finally accept it, they'll say it's  felinetta   Nov-29-09 12:33 PM   #63 
  - +1  Duppers   Nov-30-09 12:04 AM   #125 
  - The problem here is a certain portion of the population will NEVER believe, regardless of evidence.  gatorboy   Nov-29-09 12:49 PM   #67 
  - You never hear Canada claim it's a hoax....  FarLeftFist   Nov-29-09 01:49 PM   #71 
  - BREAKING NEWS  NOW tense   Nov-29-09 02:01 PM   #72 
  - Kicked and recommended.  Uncle Joe   Nov-29-09 02:09 PM   #74 
  - Great scot! Something is happening!  JonQ   Nov-29-09 02:15 PM   #75 
  - No we're not the cause, everyone knows the Industrial Age began over 300 million years ago.  Uncle Joe   Nov-29-09 02:53 PM   #81 
  - My god!  JonQ   Nov-29-09 03:12 PM   #84 
     - What about these guys e-mails? Do you believe they were in on some conspiracy?  Uncle Joe   Nov-29-09 03:27 PM   #86 
     - You mean the emails from 300 million years ago?  Wednesdays   Nov-29-09 09:08 PM   #107 
        - No only back to 1958, apparently even during the time when Elvis was in the Army, they were aware  Uncle Joe   Nov-30-09 02:01 PM   #133 
     - You sound like a Tobacco Lobbyist. n/t  U4ikLefty   Nov-30-09 09:27 PM   #137 
  - The lies and misinformation trips so easily off your keyboard  Birthmark   Nov-30-09 06:59 AM   #129 
  - Polar bears are doomed, I'm afraid.  caseymoz   Nov-29-09 02:17 PM   #76 
  - Most likely polar bears will re-converge with the brown bear population. nt  AlienGirl   Nov-29-09 02:29 PM   #78 
  - Unless we shoot them all first  NickB79   Nov-29-09 02:40 PM   #80 
  - What remains of the polar bears will re-converge. . . .  caseymoz   Nov-29-09 05:14 PM   #98 
  - Actually, this war on nature and animal life has "doomed" us, as well . . .  defendandprotect   Nov-29-09 10:00 PM   #115 
     - I can't see it as a war.  caseymoz   Nov-29-09 10:57 PM   #122 
  - This planet would be better off without any humans on it.  BrklynLiberal   Nov-29-09 02:21 PM   #77 
  - I have heard a lot of people say this...  Imajika   Nov-29-09 07:48 PM   #102 
  - unfortunately...  nebenaube   Nov-29-09 08:13 PM   #104 
  - This news just blows my mind!I'm pissed that Congress & the Obama admin have done so fucking little!  earth mom   Nov-29-09 03:05 PM   #83 
  - What more do you want them to do?  Imajika   Nov-29-09 08:01 PM   #103 
     - Obama should have started by putting money into green jobs instead of giving more money  earth mom   Nov-30-09 01:56 AM   #126 
  - I think it would be worth attempting to "transplant" bears to Antarctica.  roamer65   Nov-29-09 03:17 PM   #85 
  - Introducing a predator like that is sure to throw the ecosystem in upheaval. The penguins are likely  GreenPartyVoter   Nov-29-09 03:57 PM   #89 
  - How many penguins do you think a bear could eat in a day?  XemaSab   Dec-02-09 11:21 AM   #145 
  - I'm starting to think that there is no difference from the brain of a right wing and criminal  AlphaCentauri   Nov-29-09 03:51 PM   #88 
  - Rec'ing not because this is good - but because it needs to be on the front page for a while.  geckosfeet   Nov-29-09 04:09 PM   #90 
  - The DU freepers are all over this one  Kingofalldems   Nov-29-09 04:19 PM   #91 
  - tomorrow 1000 radio stations licensed to operate in the pub interest will read denial propaganda  certainot   Nov-29-09 04:22 PM   #92 
  - K&R  me b zola   Nov-29-09 04:27 PM   #93 
  - random idea - lets brainstorm  kdxcher   Nov-29-09 06:32 PM   #100 
  - I know! Global warming is a GOOD thing!  Wednesdays   Nov-29-09 09:14 PM   #109 
  - k i c k  defendandprotect   Nov-29-09 09:25 PM   #110 
  - All they had to do was ask the tour guide at the Athabasca Glaciers  TrogL   Nov-29-09 09:41 PM   #112 
  - k i c k  defendandprotect   Nov-30-09 03:11 AM   #127 
  - Question: During previous warm periods was there always artic ice?  AngryAmish   Nov-30-09 02:17 PM   #134 
  - Consider why Greenland is called Greenland.  ItNerd4life   Dec-01-09 12:45 PM   #142 
  - Recommend  TexasObserver   Dec-01-09 12:37 AM   #141 
  - I took environmental science in the eighties  newspeak   Dec-02-09 09:43 AM   #144 

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