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Reply #94: I think it's hilarious that the Catholic Church objects to propagandizing children. [View All]

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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts)  Journal Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Aug-23-09 01:42 PM
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94. I think it's hilarious that the Catholic Church objects to propagandizing children.
There is nobody better at brainwashing young minds than the Catholic Church.

THANK GOD the Bolivarians are offering a SECULAR education and a SECULAR government to those who want to free their minds. I was mightily grateful to our own--and to the Founders who established that principle--when I finally needed to bust out of that prison that the Catholic Church had built around my soul.

Venezuelan parents will be free to do that their children, if that's what they want to do, but the government won't be paying for it, and the rest of society will be on the freedom path, uncoerced by the extremely fascist religions of Rome or predatory capitalism.

It's interesting how the leftists are the real Christians, when you look at what they actually advocate and do (feeding, clothing the poor, brotherhood/sisterhood with the poor, equality, sharing, attending to the common good), yet they are always accused of being "godless" by the people who loot, stomp on, dominate, kick, beat, torture, hate, exploit, over-work, loathe, and, one way or another, kill the poor.

When the fascists in Venezuela did their coup attempt in 2002, the first thing they did was to suspend the Constitution, the National Assembly, the courts and all civil rights. And the next thing they would have done, had they succeeded, was to start dropping poor people and their leftist advocates out of airplanes, or chainsawing them while alive and dumping their body parts into mass graves, like they do in Colombia, that most religious of countries.

Their protests against free education, secularism and "participatory democracy" are absurd (and the organization of it all has most certainly been paid for by you and me).

----------------------

The rightwing are such goddamn liars. When they ran Venezuela, they couldn't be bothered with education of the poor majority, and utterly neglected it. The Chavez government has poured zillions of the oil profits into the education system, including adult education, and wiped out illiteracy in five years. Now they're going for a SECULAR (fact-based, reason-based focus) and CIVICS education, and the fascists and upper Catholic clergy are up in arms. The last thing in the world they want is a well-educated populace versed in their own rights as citizens and human beings, and empowered to organize in their own interests.

The Education Law does two things: It guarantees an education through university as a human right, enshrined in the Constitution, and it promotes "participatory democracy" as the focus if civics education. It leaves it up to schools, teachers and parents how to interpret the latter, just as the Chavistas have left it up to community councils to determine local needs. This is the MAIN governing principle of the Bolivarian Revolution that our corpo/fascist press cannot fathom, and completely ignores. The Chavistas are about as anti-authoritarian as you can get. They are pro-REAL democracy. Chavez is their SERVANT--as it should be--NOT their tyrant. They put him in office. They kept him in office when the fascists tried to topple him. They vote for him in big numbers. He reflects THEIR views. The Chavistas are the MAJORITY, and they believe in PARTICIPATORY democracy--everybody equal, everybody has a say, decisions emerge and policies are undertaken after widespread discussion.

This was true of the Education Law as well--something that James Suggett points out in his Venezuelanalysis article. The Education Law has been discussed for years--in many town halls organized by the National Assembly, to which everyone was invited. It has gone through several versions, with widespread public participation. All of its provisions were hammered out in public. The final, refined, legislative document was put before the National Assembly and voted for last week, but it is a goddamned lie that this law was "rammed" through in a week without public discussion.

The members of the National Assembly are separately elected by the people--in an election system that is far, far more transparent than our own. The National Assembly is pro-Chavez by choice of the people. When our corpo/fascist press and their anti-Chavez echo chamber claims that Chavez "controls" the National Assembly, they never mention that the National Assembly is independently elected! Chavez doesn't control the National Assembly. The National Assembly--representing the people of Venezuela in their districts--controls Chavez--or rather, they are all in general accord with the will of the people, subject to transparent elections!

And all of these legislators, and their constituents, and Chavez, are well aware of the need for grass roots organization--empowerment of the people, "participatory democracy"--to keep it that way. That's why they emphasize this most basic form of democracy in the Education Law in the Constitution. They don't want the people to yield their sovereignty to anyone. They are encouraging--and always have encouraged--the full sovereignty of each individual and the empowerment of each individual through LOCAL--on the ground, nearby, locally organized, wide-open mechanisms like the community councils. They see power as an organism or network with MANY centers. These individual and community centers of power converge to create, empower and control the national government. This is a MUCH MORE democratic system than our own, in which the national government has completely diverged from the will of the people on everything from egregiously unjust war to taxpayer-funded bonuses to financial criminals. We see the effects of the atrophy of our democratic system every day. The Venezuelans are trying every way they can to AVOID this--to avoid rule by oligarchs and global corporate predators and war profiteers, who manage to get hold of the power mechanisms of democracy--while the people SLEEP (are indeed deliberately put to sleep by disempowering corporate media)--and then squeeze the life out of the democracy in their own narrow, greedbag interests.

The Bolivarian Revolution--like our own democracy, at the beginning, and renewed over the centuries until recently--is an experiment in self-rule. It has its failures and successes like any such experiment, but it keeps trying. That is democracy's core principle--to keep trying, to keep renewing itself, to welcome new ideas, to encourage leadership wherever it arises, and to entrust to widespread participation the hope that the best ideas will "rise to the top" and the best people will emerge to implement them. Democracy is never perfect. That is its strength, not its weakness. It is always subject to reform.

The Chavez "cult of personality" is not particularly healthy in a democracy. But it's better than the "cult of war," or the "cult of Bush," or the "cult of Michael Jackson." And if Chavez were truly a "dictator," the people of Venezuela would long ago have tossed him out and found someone else to be president. They have had every opportunity to do so. Yet they continually--in transparent elections and in opinion polls--give him the highest marks. So he is not a "dictator" to them. He is serving their interests. In fact, he is very like our own FDR, who ran for and won four terms in office. FDR was also called a "dictator"--by the rightwing press. But when he tried to "pack the Supreme Court" (as they put it), what policy was he serving? Take a wild guess.

SOCIAL SECURITY! The rightwing court, appointed by his rightwing predecessors, were threatening to declare Social Security unconstitutional, and if they had not been pressured by FDR's threat to "pack the Supreme Court," your mom and dad, and your grandma and grandpa would have no pension today. And if the rightwing of today has their druthers, the fund will be privatized and looted before you get to it.

The charge of "dictator" has to be weighed against reality. Is it "dictatorial" to provide a free education, or pensions for the elderly, or to seek balance and fairness in use of the public airwaves? Or is it merely strong leadership in the public interest? Is it "dictatorial" to be a politician, to like the sound of your own voice, to parade about with flags and berets, to have devotees and even worshipers, to want to please people, to conceive visionary ideas and seek to implement them (ideas like "participatory democracy"!) (...or, ahem, Social Security)?

Is it "dictatorial" to have consistently high (60% range) approval ratings? No, it is not. All of these things merely amount to the temptation to be a "dictator." When examined, in reality, the word "dictator" is ridiculous--is an absurd lie. It is wildly off the mark as to what is REALLY going on in Venezuela. It is not a perfect democracy. It is not yet a fully "participatory" democracy. But it is most certainly a country in which the will of the people is being listened to, and the interests of the people are being served. Can we say that of our own country?
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  Thousands demonstrate over Venezuela education law Zorro  Aug-22-09 07:25 PM   #0 
   Yes...  WriteDown   Aug-22-09 07:27 PM   #1 
   I just read about an educational directive like this happening elsewhere...  Psephos   Aug-22-09 08:28 PM   #20 
   quick question  rantormusing   Aug-22-09 08:36 PM   #29 
   Why, it's against everything wealthy fascists believe in. How will the fascists be able  Zorra   Aug-23-09 06:03 PM   #109 
   Wow. Isn't that just so scary.  ronnie624   Aug-23-09 01:28 AM   #75 
      Stop making so much sense.  Vidar   Aug-23-09 09:09 AM   #80 
      I love Bolivarian math....  WriteDown   Aug-23-09 11:45 AM   #82 
      You haven't even read the proposed curricula,  ronnie624   Aug-23-09 12:18 PM   #86 
         Curricula is usuallly easy...  WriteDown   Aug-23-09 12:35 PM   #87 
            Bullshit. n/t  ronnie624   Aug-23-09 12:51 PM   #89 
               Sounds like you may need to brush up..  WriteDown   Aug-23-09 12:53 PM   #90 
                  There's more to education that the 'three Rs'.  ronnie624   Aug-23-09 01:26 PM   #91 
                     Those are fine...  WriteDown   Aug-23-09 05:08 PM   #106 
      Juche based education has especially proven itself worthwhile  AngryAmish   Aug-23-09 01:27 PM   #92 
         They don't invade, plunder, mass murder and otherwise strip other nations of their sovereignty.  ronnie624   Aug-23-09 01:42 PM   #96 
            Thus a perfect educational example for us all  AngryAmish   Aug-23-09 02:07 PM   #97 
   Oh, noes! The police didn't let rioters attack them!  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 07:35 PM   #2 
   Same people who were shooting into crowds  subcomhd   Aug-22-09 10:37 PM   #69 
   The private school students are pissed off again?  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 07:43 PM   #3 
   Why isn't the headline "Thousands March in Favor of Ed Law"?  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 07:48 PM   #5 
   If you actually read the article  Zorro   Aug-22-09 08:07 PM   #8 
      Did you go look at your own link?  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 08:17 PM   #15 
         Apparently the headline was all that mattered. n/t  ronnie624   Aug-23-09 01:49 AM   #76 
   So kids in Venezuela are forced to go to private schools?  WriteDown   Aug-23-09 11:45 AM   #83 
   Venezuelan Education Law: Socialist Indoctrination or Liberatory Education?  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 07:47 PM   #4 
   "Progressive annual growth" in education spending as a percentage of GDP  MetaTrope   Aug-23-09 02:10 AM   #77 
   This report of protests sounds so very similar  arikara   Aug-23-09 02:20 PM   #104 
   TG, I'm starting to think you have an unhealthy attraction to Hugo.  Arctic Dave   Aug-22-09 07:58 PM   #6 
   The right wing nutcases are trying to spin universal ed as indoctrination.  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 08:01 PM   #7 
   From the pictures of the protests  Zorro   Aug-22-09 08:09 PM   #9 
   Thousands also marched in support. What do they know  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 08:16 PM   #14 
   How about explaining what a " "bourgeois" educational system is?  Zorro   Aug-22-09 08:22 PM   #18 
      That's easy. It simply means education isn't only for rich white kids any more.  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 08:25 PM   #19 
      Are you saying only rich white kids get an education in Venezuela?  Zorro   Aug-22-09 08:33 PM   #23 
         Lame. The oligarchy takes good care of their children.  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 08:36 PM   #27 
            Universal education is available in Ecuador  Zorro   Aug-22-09 08:41 PM   #38 
               yeah, someone needs to find out what is being protested, and its NOT universal education  Bacchus39   Aug-22-09 08:54 PM   #44 
               You are spreading the same lies that homophobic Caracas Cardinal Jorge Urosa Savino is spreading  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 09:01 PM   #47 
               There seem to be many things you don't know about Venezuela. n/t  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 09:00 PM   #46 
                  Yes indeed, like an education in Venezuela is reserved only for rich white kids  Zorro   Aug-22-09 09:38 PM   #59 
                     Were it not, there would be no need for a bill securing universal education.  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 09:43 PM   #62 
      Our own system is designed to mass produce obedient future consumers  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 08:29 PM   #21 
      If you think about it, this is exactly the same thing the rightwing nuts are doing to our healthcare  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 08:32 PM   #22 
      And they are going to take our children away!  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 08:39 PM   #36 
         Exactly the same lie -- meant to scare people and nothing behind it.  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 09:05 PM   #51 
      actually, it varies widely from state to state and from community to community  cali   Aug-23-09 06:19 AM   #79 
      For those who don't fully understand that -  dipsydoodle   Aug-23-09 02:17 PM   #101 
      It's the one advocated by the right-wingnuts. Ya think they might teach evolution in Venezuela?  Better Believe It   Aug-23-09 12:17 AM   #72 
   i looked at pictures 24, 25, and 26  rantormusing   Aug-22-09 08:18 PM   #16 
      What am I saying?  Zorro   Aug-22-09 08:36 PM   #28 
         Uhm......  rantormusing   Aug-22-09 08:38 PM   #31 
         AP, Newsweek, Time, and WSJ headlines are plenty good enough for a DLC intern.  Wilms   Aug-22-09 08:54 PM   #43 
         So tell us how they're misleading  Zorro   Aug-22-09 09:36 PM   #58 
            I did  rantormusing   Aug-22-09 09:41 PM   #60 
               You stated the pictures are "misleading"  Zorro   Aug-22-09 09:44 PM   #63 
         Yes, it is. Because according to that article, thousands marched in support, too.  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 08:39 PM   #35 
            And captured in a photo, too  Zorro   Aug-22-09 10:06 PM   #67 
   Education is already universal in Venezuela...  WriteDown   Aug-23-09 11:46 AM   #84 
      The Catholic Church wants to continue to teach its religion in public schools  IndianaGreen   Aug-23-09 02:12 PM   #98 
         I'd rather they have a choice of schools...  WriteDown   Aug-23-09 05:10 PM   #108 
   Care to comment on the contents of the article, DA?  Zorro   Aug-22-09 08:14 PM   #12 
      The contents? Sure, you like tripe? Because tis article is full of it.  Arctic Dave   Aug-22-09 09:35 PM   #57 
         So are you disputing the contents of the article?  Zorro   Aug-22-09 09:42 PM   #61 
            Dispute the contents? No, the contents are crap. No dispute here.  Arctic Dave   Aug-22-09 09:52 PM   #64 
   planet earth  ro1942   Aug-22-09 08:10 PM   #10 
   tear gas and rubber bullets  rantormusing   Aug-22-09 08:11 PM   #11 
   Thank gawd in the US we don't try to indoctrinate our students!  mbperrin   Aug-22-09 08:15 PM   #13 
   LOL! And those students will be saddled with unbelievable debt, to boot.  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 08:21 PM   #17 
   The OP supports the Venezuelan version of the birthers and deathers  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 08:34 PM   #24 
   are you saying that indocrinating students through the  paulk   Aug-23-09 12:39 AM   #73 
      Nope, it's a bad thing. Perhaps before we exercise ourselves over what  mbperrin   Aug-23-09 02:15 AM   #78 
   I think you should double check this,  rantormusing   Aug-22-09 08:35 PM   #25 
   Well, let's see  Zorro   Aug-22-09 09:52 PM   #65 
      So you're scared of him?  rantormusing   Aug-22-09 10:04 PM   #66 
         Interesting to know you approve of his anti-US diatribes  Zorro   Aug-22-09 10:14 PM   #68 
            Considering how many right wing dictators & death squads we've supported  Vidar   Aug-23-09 09:25 AM   #81 
            Chavez enemies are also the enemies of the American people!  IndianaGreen   Aug-23-09 02:13 PM   #99 
   Political indoctrination in schools sometimes runs into a big backlash  JDPriestly   Aug-22-09 08:35 PM   #26 
   There is no political indoctrination in here  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 08:37 PM   #30 
   Are you saying that Venezuela does not have a public school system at this time?  JDPriestly   Aug-22-09 08:59 PM   #45 
   You got it all wrong!  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 09:05 PM   #50 
   May I ask, how did you "understand" that?  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 09:07 PM   #52 
   So this law makes their already universal education...  WriteDown   Aug-23-09 11:50 AM   #85 
      Do you want Catholicism to be taught in the public schools?  IndianaGreen   Aug-23-09 02:14 PM   #100 
         I would rather there be choice....  WriteDown   Aug-23-09 05:09 PM   #107 
   The indoctrination gambit is the right wing's attempt to stop universal ed.  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 08:38 PM   #32 
   ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##  DU GrovelBot   Aug-22-09 08:38 PM   #33 
   water cannons and rubber bullets, another day in the world's greatest society  Bacchus39   Aug-22-09 08:39 PM   #34 
   Deleted sub-thread  Name removed   Aug-22-09 08:41 PM   #37 
   The schools are the first thing ideologues, Left AND Right, pervert.  Odin2005   Aug-22-09 08:46 PM   #39 
   Venezuela is not Texas: religious education must be carried out privately and not in public schools  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 08:49 PM   #40 
   That's wrong, my friend. The right wing in Ven is up in arms  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 09:02 PM   #49 
   Venezuelan National Assembly Passes New Education Law  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 08:50 PM   #41 
   No worries. The CATO Institute is already in VZ becuase they care sooo much.  Wilms   Aug-22-09 08:50 PM   #42 
   wow that link must have snapped something in my brain  rantormusing   Aug-22-09 09:02 PM   #48 
   But, wait -- Hugo Chavez is a dictator locking down free speech!  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 09:18 PM   #53 
   174 photos?  Lydia Leftcoast   Aug-22-09 09:18 PM   #54 
   And we were grateful for that protective layer of old gum under our desks  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 09:19 PM   #55 
   Obviously you didn't duck low enough  Zorro   Aug-22-09 10:55 PM   #70 
      PBK disagrees with you.  EFerrari   Aug-22-09 10:59 PM   #71 
   more info in post 49 about the Catholic Church opposition to secular education  IndianaGreen   Aug-22-09 09:20 PM   #56 
   K&R #2 until the Huguito Squad gets here to UnReKKK en masse!1 n/t  UTUSN   Aug-23-09 12:56 AM   #74 
   If Hugo wants to indoctrinate the kids let him  Mudoria   Aug-23-09 12:46 PM   #88 
   There is zero evidence that is happening or will happen.  EFerrari   Aug-23-09 01:32 PM   #93 
   The only monopoly on indoctrination is the one of the Catholic Church  IndianaGreen   Aug-23-09 02:18 PM   #103 
   I think it's hilarious that the Catholic Church objects to propagandizing children.  Peace Patriot   Aug-23-09 01:42 PM   #94 
   Your essays are a pleasure to read. Thanks for posting. n/t  ronnie624   Aug-24-09 12:41 AM   #110 
   Isn't that the truth? I second your comment. n/t  Judi Lynn   Aug-24-09 12:14 PM   #112 
   I'd Like to Rec your Post  Demeter   Aug-24-09 12:10 PM   #111 
   Are some in this thread supporting religious education in public schools?  bread_and_roses   Aug-23-09 01:42 PM   #95 
   How many DUers support the teaching of Catholicism in the public schools (or any religion)?  IndianaGreen   Aug-23-09 02:17 PM   #102 
      And still with the "your kids will become wards of the state" cr@p.  EFerrari   Aug-23-09 02:20 PM   #105 
 

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